Spaatz exam request denied???

Cadet12354 · May 30, 2015, 09:14:04 PM

A few months ago, I requested to take my Spaatz exam. I emailed the Squadron CC more than once, and I spoke to him more than once. At first he did nothing. There are now new developments on this; I do not want to go into detail online, however. But, in the event that the Squadron CC does not approve my request, what can I do? What could I do if I do not have it in writing?
I looked in CAPR 52-16, and I saw that there is an appeals process for the Wing CC denying it, but not for the Squadron CC. However, the "helpful diagram" found on capmembers.com about the Spaatz exam process indicates that there is an appeals process for the Squadron CC disapproving the request. Am I missing something?
Is there anything I can do about this?
Thank you in advance for any help you can provide.

lordmonar · May 30, 2015, 09:39:18 PM

Chain of command.

If your Squadron CC has denied it, or is just sitting on the request....you appeal to his boss (group or wing). If they still deny it...take it all the way up to the National CC.

And remember there is always the IG.

PHall · June 01, 2015, 01:23:58 AM

Has your Squadron CC given you a reason why they denied it?

Cadet12354 · June 01, 2015, 01:10:48 PM

Appealing it up the chain of command is probably what I will be doing. The only thing that I am wondering is if I go through group, or straight to wing. When the request is processed, it goes straight from squadron to wing, without going through group. Would appealing it be the same?

As for the reason why, there is sort of a reason. The squadron commander told me was, "issues with the squadron." He did not elaborate on that, but I think I know what he means. While I do not want to go into detail online, it is a very lousy reason to deny promotions.

NIN · June 01, 2015, 02:08:06 PM

Usually, you want to go thru group if your squadron is in a group.

There's no reason to skip an echelon unless the regs say its OK to do so. At the very least, it will avoid someone saying "Hey, we're not going to entertain this appeal request because it should come from group.."

FW · June 01, 2015, 03:45:31 PM

"issues with the squadron" is not a reason to withhold Spaatz Exam approval. I think requesting a talk with the Group/CC would be in order. Good Luck.

kwe1009 · June 01, 2015, 06:24:03 PM

Did this same squadron commander approve your promotion to C/Lt Col? If so, there obviously wasn't an issue with you then. Denials have to be in writing and a specific reasons listed. If there is truly an issue that would block you from attempting the Spaatz, then the CAPF 50 should have been done awhile back to address these issues. Take that written denial and start climbing the chain of command, and as was previously mentioned, the IG is also a route you can take.

Eaker Guy · June 01, 2015, 06:54:50 PM

Quote from: kwe1009 on June 01, 2015, 06:24:03 PM
Did this same squadron commander approve your promotion to C/Lt Col? If so, there obviously wasn't an issue with you then. Denials have to be in writing and a specific reasons listed. If there is truly an issue that would block you from attempting the Spaatz, then the CAPF 50 should have been done awhile back to address these issues. Take that written denial and start climbing the chain of command, and as was previously mentioned, the IG is also a route you can take.

I apologize if my question goes slightly off track, but I am curious about what what you said concerning written explanations. At my squadron, we have had an issue with a senior member being dismissed without a written explanation. Is there a regulation that pertains to dismissing senior members from their positions?

Cadet12345,

I am truly sorry for the problem you are facing. I am a C/Maj going for C/LtCol, and I would certainly be much more frustrated than you sound. Maybe it's a testament to your patience, or maybe to my impatience, or maybe to both.

However, I wish you the best of luck. The only advice I can give is to remember who you are. You have obviously shown tremendous leadership ability and maturity to have come this far. Don't doubt yourself just because of the issue at hand. Hopefully, your appeal will be listened to, and you will be promoted. If it doesn't happen, shake it off and get on with it.

Good luck,

C/Maj Kiss

Alaric · June 01, 2015, 07:10:15 PM

Quote from: C/Maj Kiss on June 01, 2015, 06:54:50 PM
Quote from: kwe1009 on June 01, 2015, 06:24:03 PM
Did this same squadron commander approve your promotion to C/Lt Col? If so, there obviously wasn't an issue with you then. Denials have to be in writing and a specific reasons listed. If there is truly an issue that would block you from attempting the Spaatz, then the CAPF 50 should have been done awhile back to address these issues. Take that written denial and start climbing the chain of command, and as was previously mentioned, the IG is also a route you can take.

I apologize if my question goes slightly off track, but I am curious about what what you said concerning written explanations. At my squadron, we have had an issue with a senior member being dismissed without a written explanation. Is there a regulation that pertains to dismissing senior members from their positions?

Cadet12345,

I am truly sorry for the problem you are facing. I am a C/Maj going for C/LtCol, and I would certainly be much more frustrated than you sound. Maybe it's a testament to your patience, or maybe to my impatience, or maybe to both. However, I wish you the best of luck. The only advice I can give is to remember who you are. You have obviously shown tremendous leadership ability and maturity to have come this far. Don't doubt yourself just because of the issue at hand. Hopefully, your appeal will be listened to, and you will be promoted. If it doesn't happen, shake it off and get on with it.

Good luck,

C/Maj Kiss

If you mean dismissed from their position (such as Admin Officer) then no there is no such regulations

If you mean dismissed from the Civil Air Patrol then yes there are certainly regulations that speak on 2b'ing a member

Eaker Guy · June 01, 2015, 07:19:30 PM

The senior member was dismissed from her position. Thank you very much for your response.

C/Maj Kiss

lordmonar · June 01, 2015, 07:51:39 PM

Staffing decisions are at the pleasure of the commander. Of corse anyone who thinks they are being treated unfairly has the right to seek redress from their chain of command.

arajca · June 01, 2015, 08:16:40 PM

Cadet who are held back from promoting (and the Spaatz is a promotion) are required to be given the reason in writing as well as an improvement plan. No such requirement exists for seniors.

Eaker Guy · June 01, 2015, 08:45:00 PM

Quote from: arajca on June 01, 2015, 08:16:40 PM
Cadet who are held back from promoting (and the Spaatz is a promotion) are required to be given the reason in writing as well as an improvement plan. No such requirement exists for seniors.

Why not?

jeders · June 01, 2015, 09:15:32 PM

An oversight, a disparity between the cadet and senior programs which has gone unchanged for some time. Some commanders understand that it's a best practice to do for seniors what they do for cadets, most don't.

ZigZag911 · June 02, 2015, 01:11:47 AM

Quote from: arajca on June 01, 2015, 08:16:40 PM
Cadet who are held back from promoting (and the Spaatz is a promotion) are required to be given the reason in writing as well as an improvement plan. No such requirement exists for seniors.

Per CAPR 35-5, para. 1-8 (e) (published 11 Aug 2014). commanders who disapprove promotion must return CAPF 2 to initiator with written reasons for disapproval.

Cadet12354 · June 02, 2015, 01:47:37 AM

C/Maj Kiss, I wish I were even half as patient as you think I must be

.

But seriously, thank you all for responding to this. Only one more thing that I'm wondering: What should I do if I cannot get the denial in writing? This is becoming a real issue, as I have been waiting for a while. I know that I should go up the chain of command, but how can I do that if I have nothing to back me up?

lordmonar · June 02, 2015, 02:23:50 AM

Quote from: Cadet12354 on June 02, 2015, 01:47:37 AM
C/Maj Kiss, I wish I were even half as patient as you think I must be .

But seriously, thank you all for responding to this. Only one more thing that I'm wondering: What should I do if I cannot get the denial in writing? This is becoming a real issue, as I have been waiting for a while. I know that I should go up the chain of command, but how can I do that if I have nothing to back me up?

You don't need it in writing. If you have given your commander a reasonable amount of time to respond, then that is a de facto denial.
Your complaint to the group commander should be something on the order of....

"On 1 Jan I requested my SPAATZ Test IAW with CAPR 52-16. By 15 Jan MAJ XYZ, Commander of the Homer J. Simpson Comp Squadron, had yet to forward the request to wing. I contacted Maj XYZ and he stated that there unstated "problems at the squadron" and he was not going to forward the request."

That's all there is to it. It is enough to start the ball rolling.

Eaker Guy · June 02, 2015, 01:08:52 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on June 02, 2015, 02:23:50 AM
Quote from: Cadet12354 on June 02, 2015, 01:47:37 AM
C/Maj Kiss, I wish I were even half as patient as you think I must be .

But seriously, thank you all for responding to this. Only one more thing that I'm wondering: What should I do if I cannot get the denial in writing? This is becoming a real issue, as I have been waiting for a while. I know that I should go up the chain of command, but how can I do that if I have nothing to back me up?
You don't need it in writing. If you have given your commander a reasonable amount of time to respond, then that is a de facto denial.
Your complaint to the group commander should be something on the order of....

"On 1 Jan I requested my SPAATZ Test IAW with CAPR 52-16. By 15 Jan MAJ XYZ, Commander of the Homer J. Simpson Comp Squadron, had yet to forward the request to wing. I contacted Maj XYZ and he stated that there unstated "problems at the squadron" and he was not going to forward the request."

That's all there is to it. It is enough to start the ball rolling.

Cadet 12345, I don't know how much you are looking forward to taking the test, but you may be able to get a waiver. 52-16, chap 5, f(2) outlines some potential exceptional circumstances required for one. One of them is "exam proctors being unavailable in a timely manner." They certainly would be available if your request had been approved/disapproved in the proper manner. Just something you way want want to keep in you back pocket if things don't quite go your way. I don't have much experience in his kind of situation, but I'm sure the more experienced members will inform you whether or not claiming exceptional circumstances is a good idea.

All the best,

C/Maj Kiss

Storm Chaser · June 05, 2015, 01:22:35 AM

Quote from: Cadet12354 on June 02, 2015, 01:47:37 AMBut seriously, thank you all for responding to this. Only one more thing that I'm wondering: What should I do if I cannot get the denial in writing? This is becoming a real issue, as I have been waiting for a while. I know that I should go up the chain of command, but how can I do that if I have nothing to back me up?

The request for the Spaatz exam must be done in writing (e-mail) according to CAPR 52-16. If you haven't already, submit your request by e-mail with the information required in Para. 5-12b. That may prompt your commander to respond by e-mail. If he doesn't respond within a reasonable amount of time, you can then forward your original request to the group commander explaining the situation.