Senior Member process to change squadrons

[mwhitis]

Just wondering if anyone can help me with the steps or point me to a resource that I could look to for a possible squadron change? My current squadron (composite) is suffering from a bit of an identity crisis due to disagreements amongst the senior members. I'm not sure that I feel like there's a role for me with the direction that the squadron seems to be heading.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike

[Eclipse]

0 - Be a member in good standing with no outstanding disciplinary actions, etc.

1 - Visit new squadron, echleon, etc., and be accepted for transfer by the new commander.

2 - New commander executes transfer in eServices (previous commander requires no action).

3 - Bring your records to the new unit.

4 - Profit!

[LGM30GMCC]

Step 2.5 - Old Commander does not deny transfer.  They can do this if they don't think your new CC has all the info, or for various other reasons. I have rarely heard of it being done though.

[PHall]

Step 2.5 - Old Commander does not deny transfer.  They can do this if they don't think your new CC has all the info, or for various other reasons. I have rarely heard of it being done though.

I have heard of it being done. Especially when a member is trying to leave a squadron that has a Commander who has built up a "Cult of Personality".

Just one of the reasons we have Commanders term limits in CAWG.

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

Regarding transfers:  what has been listed is minimum actions.  I would add, speaking with the Sqdrn CO whom you wish to join.  If they agree, please talk it over with your current CO.  Maybe you found a Sqdrn closer to home.  Great!  What if you are bored and looking for more challenges?  By speaking with your current CO, they might be able to meet your needs.  Better this than transferring.

Just my opinion.

[Private Investigator]

Regarding transfers:  what has been listed is minimum actions.  I would add, speaking with the Sqdrn CO whom you wish to join.  If they agree, please talk it over with your current CO.  Maybe you found a Sqdrn closer to home.  Great!  What if you are bored and looking for more challenges?  By speaking with your current CO, they might be able to meet your needs.  Better this than transferring.

Just my opinion.

+1

CAP Squadron Commanders you never what they are thinking. That is why it is important to talk to them. 

[Angus]

0.5 Let current Commander know that you're looking at transfering so as not to cause bad blood and get a possible denial on the transfer when you find a new unit.

[Devil Doc]

[
[/quote]

I have heard of it being done. Especially when a member is trying to leave a squadron that has a Commander who has built up a "Cult of Personality".

Just one of the reasons we have Commanders term limits in CAWG.
[/quote]

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"
Good song from Living Colour

[GroundHawg]

You wont be the only one sadly. I really wish there were more options for us, but there just isnt. I wont be back until the dust settles from the impending implosion if at all. Let me know where you land, and please keep in touch.

[Critical AOA]

I changed squadrons as a matter of relocating from CA to TN and found it rather easy.  No politics involved in my case but I guess there would be when changing squadrons within the same geographic area. Still, I can see no reason why it would be refused.

[a2capt]

Inventoried items assigned, or just plain old spite politics. Otherwise, no real reasons..

[docbiochem33]

Have they tried to resolve the issues with the seniors?

When I was in a course for CAP they talked about the different types of Seniors and what each group wanted to do.  There were those that only wanted to fly and didn't want to do much with anyone who wasn't on an aircrew.  These seniors need to be in a senior unit only that has an aircraft.

There are seniors who want to fly and work with cadets and these members need to be in a composite squadron with an aircraft or access to an aircraft.

There are seniors who just want to be there and fill time.  These need to be kept away from a lot of the people as CAP is just a social activity.

There are those that want to do ground team/ mission stuff and think this is what the squadron should do.  These members need to be allowed to train in this area, but they should also be told that not all cadets and seniors want to do this and cannot be forced.

There are some who think a drill team is it and that is all they want to do.  Same treatment as those who want only ground teams.

There are seniors who love working with cadets and are sometimes great and sometimes not so great at it.  Use these members where they are best at.

Some just want a job in the background.  They are happy in admin, history, ops, or something where they are not always seen, but they can be useful.

When you have a clash of wills with seniors figuring out where people want to go with the unit or what they want to do is helpful.

If you can then balance things out the unit can work.  I remember 2 new seniors who loved drill and wanted to do only drill came up against the wall that was the DCC who wanted to do ground team.  Working together they balanced out the training and cadets were able to get a lot of exposure to all parts of the program.

[mwhitis]

You wont be the only one sadly. I really wish there were more options for us, but there just isnt. I wont be back until the dust settles from the impending implosion if at all. Let me know where you land, and please keep in touch.

At this point, I'm pretty sure that there won't be much left following the implosion. Don't worry, I'll keep in touch, and am still holding out hope for a spinoff squadron.

[mwhitis]

Have they tried to resolve the issues with the seniors?

When I was in a course for CAP they talked about the different types of Seniors and what each group wanted to do.  There were those that only wanted to fly and didn't want to do much with anyone who wasn't on an aircrew.  These seniors need to be in a senior unit only that has an aircraft.

There are seniors who want to fly and work with cadets and these members need to be in a composite squadron with an aircraft or access to an aircraft.

There are seniors who just want to be there and fill time.  These need to be kept away from a lot of the people as CAP is just a social activity.

There are those that want to do ground team/ mission stuff and think this is what the squadron should do.  These members need to be allowed to train in this area, but they should also be told that not all cadets and seniors want to do this and cannot be forced.

There are some who think a drill team is it and that is all they want to do.  Same treatment as those who want only ground teams.

There are seniors who love working with cadets and are sometimes great and sometimes not so great at it.  Use these members where they are best at.

Some just want a job in the background.  They are happy in admin, history, ops, or something where they are not always seen, but they can be useful.

When you have a clash of wills with seniors figuring out where people want to go with the unit or what they want to do is helpful.

If you can then balance things out the unit can work.  I remember 2 new seniors who loved drill and wanted to do only drill came up against the wall that was the DCC who wanted to do ground team.  Working together they balanced out the training and cadets were able to get a lot of exposure to all parts of the program.

Doc,

Thanks for the advice.  I've only been around for about a year, but there are some long-standing personality conflicts in place and leadership is reluctant or unwilling to discuss it.  Every time that I've seen the issues broached, they're ignored or brushed off.  It seems that they're content to remain with the status quo at this point.

Mike

[NIN]

Just an aside, from someone who had both transferred and been a commander accepting & denying transfers (yes, denying).

1) Talk to people.  Nothing worse as a commander to have one of your members "back door transfer" out of your unit and not say a word.  If there is a problem, as a commander, I'd like to know about it so I can fix it, even if you still feel the need is to transfer.  Yes, I know, some commanders are jerks who you'd just rather not talk to and would rather sneak away from.  Been there.   Thankfully, I'm pretty sure I was not one of those commanders. (and had a successful unit that people were busting down the doors to get in to.. More on that in a second)   

2) When people would come to me wanting to transfer in, if there was not a change in zip code associated with the transfer, I wanted to know why.   If the answer was "Well, I don't like the Podunk Squadron" or something similar, then my next question was "Have you talked this over with your commander?"  If the answer was "no", then I flatly said "I won't entertain your transfer until you've talked to your commander about it."  My squadron was not a refugee camp for unhappy people who felt their only recourse was to scoot out the back door under the cover of darkness.   See #1 above.

3) I would usually talk to my fellow squadron commander and see if they knew what was going on. We're like parents that way.  Cadets in particular had no idea that commanders know how to talk to one another. LOL.  I would take great pains not to burn the person exploring the transfer, but if I called my fellow commander up and said "Sooo, how's it going?" and they said "oh, man, I'm having major issues with this new guy, SM Jones..." then I am now more well informed.  "The more you know."  If Jones turns out to be a major dirtball who is trying to transfer to avoid disciplinary action, then I'm going to say to my fellow commander "Uh, hmmm, thats interesting. When he was at my unit meeting last night, he said nothing of the sort." 

(the convo then usually goes "Wait, he came to your squadron last night?" "Yep." "Thats interesting, he said he had to go to his dead grandmother's funeral.." ""Dead grandmother? He didn't mention a dead grandmother to me.  Must have slipped his mind.." [gratuitous Ferris Bueller reference there for entertainment]. Either way, if he's a dirtball, I don't want him, and my fellow commander probably needs to know the depths of his dirtball's deception)

Either way, I'm not going to get crosswise with my fellow commander over some guy wanting to transfer units.  Unless you're the Ghost of J.F. Curry, you're not so important to my unit that its worth me burning a relationship with my fellow commander over.

4) If you've sneaked out the back door of my squadron without talking to me, I'm probably happy to let you go, but know that when you realize how awesome things were at our unit,  the bowing and scraping your're going to have to pull off to come back will probably require a chiropractor.  Just sayin'.

5) If you've sneaked out of my unit trying to avoid disciplinary action, I'm going to have NHQ reverse that transfer so fast that you're gonna get whiplash from the CAPF2A boomeraging its way back around your neck. 

One of my all-time favorites:

My first act as a commander in 1999 was to suspend three cadets for a fistfight that occurred the week before I was made the commander (which was part of the reason I got tapped to take over this unit). 

One of the cadets being suspended rather defiantly told me he was going to transfer to another unit (he lived 3 miles from my unit, 40+ miles from the one he wanted to transfer to). I told him:
a) his suspension was 60 days from that day. No less;
b) no favorable personnel actions, including transfers, during those 60 days (I had specified in the suspension letter that he could apply for NCSAs during that timeframe, since the application deadline fell during the suspension, and that I would sign his form for him if he wanted to apply. I wasn't going to screw up this kid's whole summer just cuz he got stupid once in November. I'm not evil..  );
c) his suspension was at the direction of the wing commander, and wing will certainly support the reversal of any transfer, especially one done in an attempt to escape disciplinary action;
d) after his 60 day suspension was up, we would talk about a transfer, but not before.   

Near the end of his 60 days, I notice he's dropped out of my roster on eServices. I call him up, and he starts spouting out crap about how since he's transferred I can't do anything to him, etc, etc.   I will freely admit, I rubbed my hands together and said "Oh, this is gonna be good!" after I hung up the phone.

I write the letter that says "Per CAPM 39-2,  para xyz, this unit does not find the transfer of this cadet to be acceptable" and faxed it to NHQ/DP.  Before the end of the day, he's back on my roster. 

I called the other unit commander, let him know what was going on.

"Suspended? I didn't know he was suspended. He's been to several meetings in the last couple months, in uniform.  He never said anything to me about being suspended.  I asked him if you were OK with him transferring and he said 'yes'."  (that was a fun conversation. My cadet was dating that commander's daughter at the time, too. Dick Marcinko said it best: "Doom on you!")

I then email the cadet, copy to the wing commander, saying "Your transfer has been reversed. Once again, your knowledge of how things work in the real world is lacking.  You were told no transfer until after 60 days.  You'll come to this week's meeting and explain yourself, in detail, as to why you seem to think the rules as laid out don't apply to you. Oh, and by the way, that includes why you've gone to the other squadron's meetings in uniform multiple times.  I don't know how you define the word 'suspension' but you're doing it wrong."

He showed up with his dad in tow that week, and dad tried to tell me how CAP rules worked, including a rather lame attempt to physically intimidate me (I'm 6ft tall. Dad was about 5'7") After dad stood up and leaned across the table to make his point, I stood up and told dad to stay in his lane and that I saw where his kid got it from. 

He transferred after the 60 days was up, and basically left CAP after his girlfriend decided that she didn't need the drama he produced.

the tl;dr of transferring?  Talk to your CO and keep it all above board. 

[Devil Doc]

Nice work, Darin.

[Eclipse]

Heed the NIN.

Cadets in particular had no idea that commanders know how to talk to one another.

Seriously.  Like A) CAP isn't a 1-room school house of gossip.  and B) no commander worth his pin is ever going to accept anyone without making that call, first, if for no other reason then professional courtesy (which frankly is seriously lacking in some areas).

And that goes double for cadets or others who want to be staffers at major activities.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I transferred last year, largely due to geography.

Don't burn your bridges or leave bad blood behind.  CAP is not so big that you'll never see an old associate again.  You may well see them in future at a Wing/Region or even National activity, not to mention having to work with them on an actual mission.

Even if your old squadron was the biggest joke to ever have a CAP charter, don't bad-mouth them to your new unit.  It serves no purpose and could well hurt your standing in the eyes of your new squadron commander/colleagues.

Don't just try the transfer with no notice to your current CC.  You are quite liable to tick him/her off and set all kinds of grief in train.

Before I actually even visited the new unit, I went to my current CC and said "Sir, I'm thinking about a transfer to XYZ Squadron, and this is why."  I then e-mailed XYZ Squadron's CC and asked if I could just come and see how they do things, with a CC to my CC (is there an echo in here?).

A lot of that is just me and the way I do things; I was brought up to never do/say things behind someone's back that I wouldn't do/say to their face.

I respectfully asked my CC for the transfer in writing.

Minimum drama/headaches for all involved.

[Private Investigator]

Dick Marcinko said it best: "Doom on you!")[/i]

NIN that was awesome, we need more of that from Squadron Commanders   :clap:

[docbiochem33]

If you have personality conflicts then it can be really hard to deal with.  A friend of mine who took over a squadron I worked with ran into this problem when he had a bunch of prior service people come in. 

He had been with the program for a long time and realized how hard it was to save money.  New seniors came in and they wanted to spend money.  It was nothing but a fight.  He left that unit and was then asked to take over another unit.  He did.

At the next unit he spent a lot of free time trying to build the unit up.  He was able to go from about 5 people to 20 and then to about 30.  Along comes a couple of parents who wanted to be involved and joined.  Shortly after joining they wanted to spend money giving cadets scholarships for encampment.  He fought them all the way and denied all requests for the funds.  They still went behind his back, got the money, and guess who's kids went to encampment for nothing?

When you get into personalities, the commander may not want to deal with it because he is part of the problem, he is used to it, or he is afraid of what could happen.  I saw a personality conflict lead to an investigation of a member that could have been resolved with the original member just stepping aside for 6 months.

If the conflicts are long standing and cannot be resolved, don't get involved.  You will see people creating their own little groups within the unit and they will sometimes work against each other.  Fights will ensue and they will want you to pick sides.  When this happens, run, run far away and transfer.

[Eclipse]

They still went behind his back, got the money, and guess who's kids went to encampment for nothing?

How could they go "behind his back"?  Either its unit funds and that requires finance committee approval (and the CC is always on that committee), or
they aren't, and if they aren't, who cares?

You can't spend "my" money, but if you get other people to spend money, good on 'ye.

[docbiochem33]

Two were on the finance committee and they just went ahead and did the transaction anyway.  Glad CAP went to Wing Banker.  There were questions and the good stern, "Don't do that again" talk from a higher headquarters, but that was it.

[Eclipse]

Two were on the finance committee and they just went ahead and did the transaction anyway.  Glad CAP went to Wing Banker.  There were questions and the good stern, "Don't do that again" talk from a higher headquarters, but that was it.

That would have been a couple of red-hot 2b's right after the checks were reversed.

[NIN]

NIN that was awesome, we need more of that from Squadron Commanders   :clap:

Yeah, I couldn't exactly tell my cadets to S^2.

[NIN]

Two were on the finance committee and they just went ahead and did the transaction anyway.  Glad CAP went to Wing Banker.  There were questions and the good stern, "Don't do that again" talk from a higher headquarters, but that was it.

That would have been a couple of red-hot 2b's right after the checks were reversed.

No doubt.

Wing banker came along at the end of my last tour as commander.  I gritted my teeth and implemented as directed.  The great thing was that my unit had a very robust finance process (my finance officer during my first tour was meticulous!) where we were accustomed to documenting the daylights out of things.  We used a check request form, for example, that laid out what the approval levels were right on the form. No questions, no confusion. You put $25 in gas in the squadron van during the last activity, you submitted a check request and the receipt, and it was clear who was the approving authority.  We even tracked whether it was a budgeted expense and what account it was applied to on the form.   (during SUIs, my finance section regularly got benchmarked and wing even stole our forms when the Wing Banker program came along)  

But we also documented finance committee meeting minutes, etc. Approved check requests had to be countersigned by the finance committee (chairman, probably, if I recall), the finance officer and the commander at the finance committee level.  Nobody was slipping an encampment sized check request past the finance committee in any instance, and the finance committee's minutes reflected. (You could match up every check request against finance committee minutes if the approval level required the finance committee.  It was also my practice to require the finance officer to sign off the form alongside the commander when the approval level was below the finance committee.)

When wing banker came along, pretty much the only difference to us was that the check request, after finance committee approval, went 400 yards from sq hq to wing hq to have a check cut instead of the unit finance officer doing it. <shrug> Apart from a little induced lag in the process, it was a no-brainer.

If someone is "slipping something" by the commander, however, they need a swift kick out of the organization.

[Eclipse]

When wing banker came along, pretty much the only difference to us was that the check request, after finance committee approval, went 400 yards from sq hq to wing hq to have a check cut instead of the unit finance officer doing it. <shrug> Apart from a little induced lag in the process, it was a no-brainer.

Ditto - I never understood the heartburn on the conversion.  We were doing pretty much the same thing, and nothing changed much
after the transition.  In most cases, those in my wing who had the most "issues" with the WBP also had the most "challenges" in regards to
how they handled their finances in general.

Same goes for the 8 encampments I ran - every penny accounted for to the last receipt, at least two sigs on every check, and a finance
approval form on every one of those.  Frankly it never occurred to me to do it any other way.

[a2capt]

All the FUD about "Group/Wing/Region/National/They will take your money" and "We have to beg, plead and justify to use our own money".
No. Just have to have minutes and a paper trail, and not be stupid about it. That's all.

[docbiochem33]

I loved wing banker.  I was in a couple of squadrons where not even the finance officer knew what was happening because the commander would have a spouse do something or the commander was doing everything.  The finance officer only saw what was given to them.

I remember an investigation that resulted in finds of cash that were sent to the unit for an activity only to find out that the commander didn't let anyone know, cashed the check, and used the money for himself.  Then there were complaints that the commander had used money that was raised by the unit to pay for some of his equipment and the amount given to the finance officer was different and was shown as different in the finance records.

As a cadet I also know of a unit that was spending all of its money on the aircraft and not getting the money from members who were flying.  Cadets raised about $600.00 and all of it went to the aircraft.  I thought all of this was a rumor when I had heard about it and then about 6 years later when I was a senior and going through the old records for destruction I found a bill for fuel that a senior member charged to the squadron.  I then found a letter telling all pilots that they were going to have to pay the squadron more to use the aircraft to cover costs associated with the aircraft.  A senior member told me all about it and how they tried to stop it, but couldn't for a long time.

Wing banker may make life a little more difficult, but it helped.  I think there is less "theft" or "conversion" since it has come along.

[LGM30GMCC]

A squadron spending money raised by the cadets for financing flying could be perfectly legitimate if that's how its budgeted. It may be a pretty jerk move to do things this way but once money enters a squadron, unless it is specifically designated, it can be spent on any squadron needs. The only thing cadets/SM CP types could do in this case would be to simply stop raising funds for the unit.

[FDLT19]

Just to spray a little Windex on the window, Wing Banker is a new program that has been implemented to ensure accountability and tracking of monies spent by the SQ/GP/WG, and further ensures that earmarked monies are spent on the proper line item?

So where is the heartache from this coming from? 

[Eclipse]

The WBP has been in use since 2008 nationally, its hardly a "new" program.

[FDLT19]

Right, I got out in 06, and am coming back in, so this is something I am unfamiliar with and needed clarification on it. I am just surprised a program of this nature would cause problems for SQ management, as I would, and do, want every red cent I spend of someone else's money accounted for.

[Eclipse]

From a purely squadron management perspective, it makes life a lot easier, same goes for audits and inspections - generally the same
people who can't figure out how to process a check, or can't plan far enough in advance that they don't get hung out for an extra week
on a paperclip reimbursement, suffer other "challenges" in understanding basic CAP procedures and processes.

There's also just a contingent of members who don't like being told what to do, and a very tiny one that were using funds for whatever they
pleased. There were also a few conspiracy theorists who made noise about how "wing is going to take my money", blah blah.

[FDLT19]

Roger that,

So simply, if you can plan a budget, manage said budget, function with in the limitations of said budget, and have the foresight to plan for unexpected items, the programs great; however, if your counting pennies for pens your in trouble. 

[Eclipse]

It's not even at that most basic level, it's a lot lower.

Literally people who can't figure out how to get things done if they aren't in the same physical room as the finance comittee members.

"John's been in Europe all summer, so we haven't had an FC meeting since May".

Really?  They don't have internet in Europe? 
(Most wings now allow for email-based committee meetings and electronic signatures or some other electronic check approval, it's not rocket surgery.)

[FDLT19]

I see,

So it more or less streamlines finance.

Also, I am sure that we have those who think if we do it on the interweb, well, "Sir, you can't let him in here. He'll see everything. He'll see the big board!"

What is the associated CAPR or Policy

[LGM30GMCC]

Here's a link to the stuff you would need at the basic 'CAP-wide' level.

http://www.capmembers.com/forms_publications__regulations/r173-001/

[68w20]

It's not even at that most basic level, it's a lot lower.

Literally people who can't figure out how to get things done if they aren't in the same physical room as the finance comittee members.

"John's been in Europe all summer, so we haven't had an FC meeting since May".

Really?  They don't have internet in Europe? 
(Most wings now allow for email-based committee meetings and electronic signatures or some other electronic check approval, it's not rocket surgery.)

That or skype and a scanner.  I can't tell you how many times a member has told me I'll have to wait until the next Squadron meeting for a signature, and then in the next sentence acknowledges that they own/have access to a scanner.

[docbiochem33]

I don't think that Wing Banker makes things a matter of Wing taking the money and not giving it up.  It is a matter of people knowing where money is going.

This makes it easier for an investigation if there is a complaint of theft.

[GroundHawg]

Mike, I informed them last night that I will not be there until further notice, and that I will be resigning from all positions except Historian. Good luck...