Senior Member process to change squadrons

[mwhitis]

Just wondering if anyone can help me with the steps or point me to a resource that I could look to for a possible squadron change? My current squadron (composite) is suffering from a bit of an identity crisis due to disagreements amongst the senior members. I'm not sure that I feel like there's a role for me with the direction that the squadron seems to be heading.

Any help appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike

[Eclipse]

0 - Be a member in good standing with no outstanding disciplinary actions, etc.

1 - Visit new squadron, echleon, etc., and be accepted for transfer by the new commander.

2 - New commander executes transfer in eServices (previous commander requires no action).

3 - Bring your records to the new unit.

4 - Profit!

[LGM30GMCC]

Step 2.5 - Old Commander does not deny transfer.  They can do this if they don't think your new CC has all the info, or for various other reasons. I have rarely heard of it being done though.

[PHall]

Step 2.5 - Old Commander does not deny transfer.  They can do this if they don't think your new CC has all the info, or for various other reasons. I have rarely heard of it being done though.

I have heard of it being done. Especially when a member is trying to leave a squadron that has a Commander who has built up a "Cult of Personality".

Just one of the reasons we have Commanders term limits in CAWG.

[West MI-CAP-Ret]

Regarding transfers:  what has been listed is minimum actions.  I would add, speaking with the Sqdrn CO whom you wish to join.  If they agree, please talk it over with your current CO.  Maybe you found a Sqdrn closer to home.  Great!  What if you are bored and looking for more challenges?  By speaking with your current CO, they might be able to meet your needs.  Better this than transferring.

Just my opinion.

[Private Investigator]

Regarding transfers:  what has been listed is minimum actions.  I would add, speaking with the Sqdrn CO whom you wish to join.  If they agree, please talk it over with your current CO.  Maybe you found a Sqdrn closer to home.  Great!  What if you are bored and looking for more challenges?  By speaking with your current CO, they might be able to meet your needs.  Better this than transferring.

Just my opinion.

+1

CAP Squadron Commanders you never what they are thinking. That is why it is important to talk to them. 

[Angus]

0.5 Let current Commander know that you're looking at transfering so as not to cause bad blood and get a possible denial on the transfer when you find a new unit.

[Devil Doc]

[
[/quote]

I have heard of it being done. Especially when a member is trying to leave a squadron that has a Commander who has built up a "Cult of Personality".

Just one of the reasons we have Commanders term limits in CAWG.
[/quote]

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself"
Good song from Living Colour

[GroundHawg]

You wont be the only one sadly. I really wish there were more options for us, but there just isnt. I wont be back until the dust settles from the impending implosion if at all. Let me know where you land, and please keep in touch.

[Critical AOA]

I changed squadrons as a matter of relocating from CA to TN and found it rather easy.  No politics involved in my case but I guess there would be when changing squadrons within the same geographic area. Still, I can see no reason why it would be refused.

[a2capt]

Inventoried items assigned, or just plain old spite politics. Otherwise, no real reasons..

[docbiochem33]

Have they tried to resolve the issues with the seniors?

When I was in a course for CAP they talked about the different types of Seniors and what each group wanted to do.  There were those that only wanted to fly and didn't want to do much with anyone who wasn't on an aircrew.  These seniors need to be in a senior unit only that has an aircraft.

There are seniors who want to fly and work with cadets and these members need to be in a composite squadron with an aircraft or access to an aircraft.

There are seniors who just want to be there and fill time.  These need to be kept away from a lot of the people as CAP is just a social activity.

There are those that want to do ground team/ mission stuff and think this is what the squadron should do.  These members need to be allowed to train in this area, but they should also be told that not all cadets and seniors want to do this and cannot be forced.

There are some who think a drill team is it and that is all they want to do.  Same treatment as those who want only ground teams.

There are seniors who love working with cadets and are sometimes great and sometimes not so great at it.  Use these members where they are best at.

Some just want a job in the background.  They are happy in admin, history, ops, or something where they are not always seen, but they can be useful.

When you have a clash of wills with seniors figuring out where people want to go with the unit or what they want to do is helpful.

If you can then balance things out the unit can work.  I remember 2 new seniors who loved drill and wanted to do only drill came up against the wall that was the DCC who wanted to do ground team.  Working together they balanced out the training and cadets were able to get a lot of exposure to all parts of the program.

[mwhitis]

You wont be the only one sadly. I really wish there were more options for us, but there just isnt. I wont be back until the dust settles from the impending implosion if at all. Let me know where you land, and please keep in touch.

At this point, I'm pretty sure that there won't be much left following the implosion. Don't worry, I'll keep in touch, and am still holding out hope for a spinoff squadron.

[mwhitis]

Have they tried to resolve the issues with the seniors?

When I was in a course for CAP they talked about the different types of Seniors and what each group wanted to do.  There were those that only wanted to fly and didn't want to do much with anyone who wasn't on an aircrew.  These seniors need to be in a senior unit only that has an aircraft.

There are seniors who want to fly and work with cadets and these members need to be in a composite squadron with an aircraft or access to an aircraft.

There are seniors who just want to be there and fill time.  These need to be kept away from a lot of the people as CAP is just a social activity.

There are those that want to do ground team/ mission stuff and think this is what the squadron should do.  These members need to be allowed to train in this area, but they should also be told that not all cadets and seniors want to do this and cannot be forced.

There are some who think a drill team is it and that is all they want to do.  Same treatment as those who want only ground teams.

There are seniors who love working with cadets and are sometimes great and sometimes not so great at it.  Use these members where they are best at.

Some just want a job in the background.  They are happy in admin, history, ops, or something where they are not always seen, but they can be useful.

When you have a clash of wills with seniors figuring out where people want to go with the unit or what they want to do is helpful.

If you can then balance things out the unit can work.  I remember 2 new seniors who loved drill and wanted to do only drill came up against the wall that was the DCC who wanted to do ground team.  Working together they balanced out the training and cadets were able to get a lot of exposure to all parts of the program.

Doc,

Thanks for the advice.  I've only been around for about a year, but there are some long-standing personality conflicts in place and leadership is reluctant or unwilling to discuss it.  Every time that I've seen the issues broached, they're ignored or brushed off.  It seems that they're content to remain with the status quo at this point.

Mike

[NIN]

Just an aside, from someone who had both transferred and been a commander accepting & denying transfers (yes, denying).

1) Talk to people.  Nothing worse as a commander to have one of your members "back door transfer" out of your unit and not say a word.  If there is a problem, as a commander, I'd like to know about it so I can fix it, even if you still feel the need is to transfer.  Yes, I know, some commanders are jerks who you'd just rather not talk to and would rather sneak away from.  Been there.   Thankfully, I'm pretty sure I was not one of those commanders. (and had a successful unit that people were busting down the doors to get in to.. More on that in a second)   

2) When people would come to me wanting to transfer in, if there was not a change in zip code associated with the transfer, I wanted to know why.   If the answer was "Well, I don't like the Podunk Squadron" or something similar, then my next question was "Have you talked this over with your commander?"  If the answer was "no", then I flatly said "I won't entertain your transfer until you've talked to your commander about it."  My squadron was not a refugee camp for unhappy people who felt their only recourse was to scoot out the back door under the cover of darkness.   See #1 above.

3) I would usually talk to my fellow squadron commander and see if they knew what was going on. We're like parents that way.  Cadets in particular had no idea that commanders know how to talk to one another. LOL.  I would take great pains not to burn the person exploring the transfer, but if I called my fellow commander up and said "Sooo, how's it going?" and they said "oh, man, I'm having major issues with this new guy, SM Jones..." then I am now more well informed.  "The more you know."  If Jones turns out to be a major dirtball who is trying to transfer to avoid disciplinary action, then I'm going to say to my fellow commander "Uh, hmmm, thats interesting. When he was at my unit meeting last night, he said nothing of the sort." 

(the convo then usually goes "Wait, he came to your squadron last night?" "Yep." "Thats interesting, he said he had to go to his dead grandmother's funeral.." ""Dead grandmother? He didn't mention a dead grandmother to me.  Must have slipped his mind.." [gratuitous Ferris Bueller reference there for entertainment]. Either way, if he's a dirtball, I don't want him, and my fellow commander probably needs to know the depths of his dirtball's deception)

Either way, I'm not going to get crosswise with my fellow commander over some guy wanting to transfer units.  Unless you're the Ghost of J.F. Curry, you're not so important to my unit that its worth me burning a relationship with my fellow commander over.

4) If you've sneaked out the back door of my squadron without talking to me, I'm probably happy to let you go, but know that when you realize how awesome things were at our unit,  the bowing and scraping your're going to have to pull off to come back will probably require a chiropractor.  Just sayin'.

5) If you've sneaked out of my unit trying to avoid disciplinary action, I'm going to have NHQ reverse that transfer so fast that you're gonna get whiplash from the CAPF2A boomeraging its way back around your neck. 

One of my all-time favorites:

My first act as a commander in 1999 was to suspend three cadets for a fistfight that occurred the week before I was made the commander (which was part of the reason I got tapped to take over this unit). 

One of the cadets being suspended rather defiantly told me he was going to transfer to another unit (he lived 3 miles from my unit, 40+ miles from the one he wanted to transfer to). I told him:
a) his suspension was 60 days from that day. No less;
b) no favorable personnel actions, including transfers, during those 60 days (I had specified in the suspension letter that he could apply for NCSAs during that timeframe, since the application deadline fell during the suspension, and that I would sign his form for him if he wanted to apply. I wasn't going to screw up this kid's whole summer just cuz he got stupid once in November. I'm not evil..  );
c) his suspension was at the direction of the wing commander, and wing will certainly support the reversal of any transfer, especially one done in an attempt to escape disciplinary action;
d) after his 60 day suspension was up, we would talk about a transfer, but not before.   

Near the end of his 60 days, I notice he's dropped out of my roster on eServices. I call him up, and he starts spouting out crap about how since he's transferred I can't do anything to him, etc, etc.   I will freely admit, I rubbed my hands together and said "Oh, this is gonna be good!" after I hung up the phone.

I write the letter that says "Per CAPM 39-2,  para xyz, this unit does not find the transfer of this cadet to be acceptable" and faxed it to NHQ/DP.  Before the end of the day, he's back on my roster. 

I called the other unit commander, let him know what was going on.

"Suspended? I didn't know he was suspended. He's been to several meetings in the last couple months, in uniform.  He never said anything to me about being suspended.  I asked him if you were OK with him transferring and he said 'yes'."  (that was a fun conversation. My cadet was dating that commander's daughter at the time, too. Dick Marcinko said it best: "Doom on you!")

I then email the cadet, copy to the wing commander, saying "Your transfer has been reversed. Once again, your knowledge of how things work in the real world is lacking.  You were told no transfer until after 60 days.  You'll come to this week's meeting and explain yourself, in detail, as to why you seem to think the rules as laid out don't apply to you. Oh, and by the way, that includes why you've gone to the other squadron's meetings in uniform multiple times.  I don't know how you define the word 'suspension' but you're doing it wrong."

He showed up with his dad in tow that week, and dad tried to tell me how CAP rules worked, including a rather lame attempt to physically intimidate me (I'm 6ft tall. Dad was about 5'7") After dad stood up and leaned across the table to make his point, I stood up and told dad to stay in his lane and that I saw where his kid got it from. 

He transferred after the 60 days was up, and basically left CAP after his girlfriend decided that she didn't need the drama he produced.

the tl;dr of transferring?  Talk to your CO and keep it all above board. 

[Devil Doc]

Nice work, Darin.

[Eclipse]

Heed the NIN.

Cadets in particular had no idea that commanders know how to talk to one another.

Seriously.  Like A) CAP isn't a 1-room school house of gossip.  and B) no commander worth his pin is ever going to accept anyone without making that call, first, if for no other reason then professional courtesy (which frankly is seriously lacking in some areas).

And that goes double for cadets or others who want to be staffers at major activities.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I transferred last year, largely due to geography.

Don't burn your bridges or leave bad blood behind.  CAP is not so big that you'll never see an old associate again.  You may well see them in future at a Wing/Region or even National activity, not to mention having to work with them on an actual mission.

Even if your old squadron was the biggest joke to ever have a CAP charter, don't bad-mouth them to your new unit.  It serves no purpose and could well hurt your standing in the eyes of your new squadron commander/colleagues.

Don't just try the transfer with no notice to your current CC.  You are quite liable to tick him/her off and set all kinds of grief in train.

Before I actually even visited the new unit, I went to my current CC and said "Sir, I'm thinking about a transfer to XYZ Squadron, and this is why."  I then e-mailed XYZ Squadron's CC and asked if I could just come and see how they do things, with a CC to my CC (is there an echo in here?).

A lot of that is just me and the way I do things; I was brought up to never do/say things behind someone's back that I wouldn't do/say to their face.

I respectfully asked my CC for the transfer in writing.

Minimum drama/headaches for all involved.

[Private Investigator]

Dick Marcinko said it best: "Doom on you!")[/i]

NIN that was awesome, we need more of that from Squadron Commanders   :clap:

[docbiochem33]

If you have personality conflicts then it can be really hard to deal with.  A friend of mine who took over a squadron I worked with ran into this problem when he had a bunch of prior service people come in. 

He had been with the program for a long time and realized how hard it was to save money.  New seniors came in and they wanted to spend money.  It was nothing but a fight.  He left that unit and was then asked to take over another unit.  He did.

At the next unit he spent a lot of free time trying to build the unit up.  He was able to go from about 5 people to 20 and then to about 30.  Along comes a couple of parents who wanted to be involved and joined.  Shortly after joining they wanted to spend money giving cadets scholarships for encampment.  He fought them all the way and denied all requests for the funds.  They still went behind his back, got the money, and guess who's kids went to encampment for nothing?

When you get into personalities, the commander may not want to deal with it because he is part of the problem, he is used to it, or he is afraid of what could happen.  I saw a personality conflict lead to an investigation of a member that could have been resolved with the original member just stepping aside for 6 months.

If the conflicts are long standing and cannot be resolved, don't get involved.  You will see people creating their own little groups within the unit and they will sometimes work against each other.  Fights will ensue and they will want you to pick sides.  When this happens, run, run far away and transfer.