The Hock Shop hit with lawsuit?

[Spike]

What's next?  Units can't maintain an inventory of insignia to sell to members because Vanguard is the only one who can sell products to our membership?

That is a slippery subject all in itslef.  You should ask FW about it.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Guess there are going to be a lot of personal items listed on eBay soon.

In all reality, from most of the posts here, it seems the Hock has gotten better at service/quality over the last 5 years or so.

But either way, I saw this one coming as a 16 year old *or when ever the Vanguard deal happened*, because that's what is expected in giving rights away to a single company.

What's next?  Units can't maintain an inventory of insignia to sell to members because Vanguard is the only one who can sell products to our membership?

That is a slippery subject all in itslef.  You should ask FW about it.

Unless the unit makes the insignia it doesn't matter. What happens is someone at the unit stocks up from Vanguard, saves on the combined shipping, and the unit then sells at cost/slight profit for unit expenses. Either way Vanguard/NHQ get their cut.


As to the lawsuit, does anyone know the nature of it? is NHQ suing for something, or is it just to have a court order the end of CAP item sales?

[Eclipse]

What's next?  Units can't maintain an inventory of insignia to sell to members because Vanguard is the only one who can sell products to our membership?

That is a slippery subject all in itslef.  You should ask FW about it.

Unless the unit makes the insignia it doesn't matter. What happens is someone at the unit stocks up from Vanguard, saves on the combined shipping, and the unit then sells at cost/slight profit for unit expenses. Either way Vanguard/NHQ get their cut.

I have yet to see a unit that is able to maintain an insignia stock for sale that doesn't violate the petty cash prohibition.  That's not to say
it isn't done all over the universe, but that doesn't make it right, either.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Are we equating insignia as cash assets or supplies?

[davidsinn]

Are we equating insignia as cash assets or supplies?

I think he's saying that it's impossible to sell it without having change on hand which is my main beef with WB. My unit charges a cadet a set amount of money to get all of their insignia and we use that to buy rank which is just recycled to other cadets along with the personal items such as tapes etc.

[lordmonar]

What's next?  Units can't maintain an inventory of insignia to sell to members because Vanguard is the only one who can sell products to our membership?

That is a slippery subject all in itslef.  You should ask FW about it.

Nope...nothing wrong with it...so long as they buy it from Vanguard first!

[lordmonar]

What's next?  Units can't maintain an inventory of insignia to sell to members because Vanguard is the only one who can sell products to our membership?

That is a slippery subject all in itslef.  You should ask FW about it.

Ours doesn't.  We make the cadets pay in cash, round up all the costs to the nearest whole dollar, write receipts each time and deposit them in the WBP account each week.

Unless the unit makes the insignia it doesn't matter. What happens is someone at the unit stocks up from Vanguard, saves on the combined shipping, and the unit then sells at cost/slight profit for unit expenses. Either way Vanguard/NHQ get their cut.

I have yet to see a unit that is able to maintain an insignia stock for sale that doesn't violate the petty cash prohibition.  That's not to say
it isn't done all over the universe, but that doesn't make it right, either.

[nesagsar]

Oh this is terrible. The Hock Shop is awesome and totally saved me some times while preparing for honor guard competitions.

[Mustang]

Patrick and Ned are absolutely correct.  CAP has an "exclusive" contract with Vangard and, it will probably remain in force for some time.  We've received  about $230,000 in the last 4 years from them.  The money has gone directly to regional/national training site improvements. 

CAP's leadership should be doing all it can to ensure required uniform items are available to the membership at the lowest cost possible, not using licensing royalties from Vanguard to fleece its members, regardless of how "worthy" the cause the funds are used for. And really, just how many members will benefit from investments in facilities at Oshkosh or Hawk Mountain? [darn] few.

[flyboy53]

You guys don't get it...the exclusive contranct? It means that CAP gets a cut from every sale of CAP insignia....which is another reason why the stuff costs so much...and frankly the quality stinks and takes forever unless you call someone you know.

Then they come up with absolutely stupid things like swords. Yes, a little competition is a good thing.

[Pumbaa]

CAP = Come and Pay...

I am not an ATM machine for CAP.  This is just another reason (of many) I am letting my membership lapse (and my daughter) at the end of march...

I worked with volunteers for 15 years.. We treated them like GOLD... they in turn wanted to help and give... But what CAP is doing is antithetical to the proper treatment of volunteers.

What they should be doing if they are worried about brand dilution, etc.  Is having licensing requirements much like professional sports.  you pay a fee or %%, but it is not limited to a sole source.

As a corporation CAP is run very poorly.  What is happening with the uniforms, purchasing, etc are just the tip of the iceberg.

[ColonelJack]

Over the course of my (now) 17 years in CAP, I've done business with the Bookstore, CAPMart, Vanguard, and Tom.  With the Bookstore and CAPMart, things were pretty much okay -- maybe because I live close enough to Maxwell AFB to get my deliveries quickly, or I could even take an afternoon and drive there.

With Vanguard, it's been something of a nightmare.  Somewhere on here is a series of posts about my experience with them double-charging me for a rather large order ... and it taking just short of an Act of Congress to get the second charge nullified.  They eventually did it ... but it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

But Tom ... I have had 100% positive experiences ordering from The Hock Shop.  The stuff I get is good quality (I have never gotten any of the off-quality stuff others get; I must be a lucky fellow) ... the prices are good ... and the service is gold standard.  I know a lot of others have had quick fixes on order problems with Tom, but I can state that as far as my memory goes, I haven't even had one order problem.  What I order, I get ... and if it's backordered, I get it as soon as Tom does.

Yes, I know that the law says CAP and Vanguard have an exclusive agreement.  And that, by offering anything with "CAP," "Civil Air Patrol," or the three-bladed propeller insignia, Tom's violating that agreement.

But just because something is legal does not make it right.

Jack

[DogCollar]

Is anyone else worried about the possible abuse and fraud that can occur when someone has an "exclusive" arrangement?  I know the money given back to CAP is helpful, but what kind of transparency is there?  Was the exclusive arrangement put out for bid?  Is the arrangement audited regularly?  Is there someone from the CAP side whose job it is to ensure quality control, adequate stock of needed items, customer service complaints are tracked, as well as assuring members are getting a good price?  If it is someones job, I would submit that there needs to be better job performance!!  If no one has that job, than CAP is failing its membership.

[swamprat86]

I have an issue with NHQ getting a return on items that members purchase for required uniform items.  My concern is that Vanguard will charge what they need to on required items so that they may money on their end and NHQ gets their required cut.  We are paying ourselves.  I have no problem with this arrangement on optional items like coffee mugs, mousepads, etc. but we should be able to get required items, uniforms, tapes, insignia at the lowest possible price that Vanguard can offer it to cover their costs and reasonable profit.  CAP should not be getting money from items that they are requiring for the members.  If they need money like that, just raise the membership dues and don't try to hide it under a "donation".

That's my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Spike]

Since no one else said it I will.  Everything Vanguard sells (everything) is produced in the United States by American Citizens.  Before they become exclusive supplier of everything CAP, Vanguard produced over 50% of everthing the Bookstore and CAPMART sold. 

Can anyone tell me where Tom gets his "low-cost" items? 

This was bound to happen.  Tom should consider himself luck to have been given such a long run while other retailers were threatened and sent S&D letters. 

Do I feel bad for Tom......not one bit.  He made a profit off of us for a VERY LONG time. 

Do I hate that Vanguard is sole supplier......you bet I do, but that is something we can not change here.  If you want it changed you need to speak to the BOG and National Commander. 

I say stop the whining and start writing letters to NHQ and Amy Courter. 

[tdepp]

Without seeing the lawsuit or knowing what type of licensing agreements CAP has with Vanguard or The Hock regarding CAP items that may be covered under copyright or trademark or trade dress, it is not unusual for an organization to enter into licensing agreements or even exclusive licensing agreements with a vendor.  An intellectual property rights holder has the legal right to license or not license their IP and protect the use and sale of their IP.

Whether CAP should have an exclusive licensing agreement with one vendor is an economic and public relations issue but probably not a legal issue, IMHO.

My experiences with Vanguard have all been very positive.  I've had good customer service.  Their shipping costs and prices are somewhat higher than The Hock's but they also have a better selection of goods.  Their delivery is also slower than The Hock's by a bit in my experience.  But I would have to say I have no real complaints with Vanguard.

I also have had excellent experiences with the The Hock.  And as noted, their shipping is usually cheaper and a bit faster.  But they don't have quite the same selection of items overall (pre-lawsuit).

I think competition is good. But Vanguard has also paid for the beautiful "wraps" on our two new Dodge Caravans that the SD Wing received recently.  And I think they do some other things for CAP.  Some say kickback, I'd say how business operates.   And I agree, suing our own members is awkward but being a member doesn't give us the right to violate licensing agreements.  (Again, I don't know if The Hock has or hasn't.  Hence, the lawsuit by Vanguard.)

This is just my opinion and not my squadron's, wing's, region's, or national's.  My guess is that there will be a settlement of some sort that details what The Hock can and can't sell that has CAP IP on it.

[alamrcn]

Can they just vote the "exclusive" to go to the Hock when the Flemguard contract runs out?

[lordmonar]

Can they just vote the "exclusive" to go to the Hock when the Flemguard contract runs out?

Sure.....heck they can do anything they want to with the license they want.  But I have no idea how long Vanguard got the exclusive licence.

[Seabee219]

WOW!!! I like the HOCK. GO TOM, IM WITH YOU.........

[Eclipse]

Can they just vote the "exclusive" to go to the Hock when the Flemguard contract runs out?

Tom would need to have a significantly bigger operation to ever get an exclusive contract, and that's not even
accounting for his Pac-Rim suppliers and the inferior quality and incorrect colors on many of the insignia he is selling.