cadet needs D&C before encampment, time is limited suggestions?

[mynetdude]

Drill & Ceremony testing questions for curry achievement cadets.

One of our cadets from our squadron is pretty much the only cadet going to encampment this winter (actually the only cadet and there is only one SM going as well).  This cadet is also my sister; she did well on her curry written and two of her PT tests and passed them all.

D&C from the time she joined until now has been lacking and I would like for her to be able to pass her D&C and I was informed by the CDC that she got through 3/4 of the D&C requirements and would be finished testing on another date but we re are getting very close to encampment and I understand people (cadets/adults) do not always pass on their first try so I encourage her to do the best, I don't raise any standards and expect her to follow that I only expect her to do the best she can.

I asked her to do some D&C commands that were listed in chapter 1 of her leadership book and she could not do 1/2 of them let alone I didn't know 1/4 of them.  (even if you didn't know how to execute a move, you can tell if you're doing it right because it doesn't look made up) so I had a talk with the CDC and we are running into a problem that it is Aerospace night on Tuesday and there isn't any room for D&C training.

So my question is: Can a cadet be tested for D&C at another squadron? Or be trained & tested for D&C on the same night at a different squadron (I guess you could call this cheating) she hasn't had the opportunity to practice because there hasn't been any real instruction provided except the mere basics.

She really wants to go to encampment, I do not want her setup for failure (isn't that what we are supposed to do is make sure that cadets are not put into a position to fail?). If she doesn't test this Tuesday then she has next Tuesday which is promotion night (and our squadron will allow her to do D&C) however if she needs more work then she has lost an extra opportunity by not being able to train/test this week instead of next week giving her an extra buffer.

There is always next encampment too, however I am not sure she will settle for waiting until next encampment especially if it is less expensive to go this time than next time.

I have been given ideas on where to get help, although they are great ideas I do not believe they will be beneficial as it will take time to get them.

[MIKE]

If nobody in the unit is familiar enough with AFMAN 36-2203 to be able to test her then you have a problem... and you are probably going to have to look to another unit as a temporary measure, and also get some seniors trained enough to be competent evaluators.

[lordmonar]

Okay.

First....I am assuming that you are someone of importance in your squadron.

Get with your DCC and tell him of the need for everyone in the squadron to work on their D&C.

This should be practiced every night.  It only takes about 15 minutes to go through all of the required drills for Curry.

For the remedial stuff.....look at another day.  An all day drill work shop. 

Break it up into small groups by ability.

Those who have mastered the list can work with those who still need help.

Off Topic but related.......if your cadets can't drill they should not be getting their Curry.

[Майор Хаткевич]

First, why is she the only one going?

Why aren't you or any other cadets going?

Encampments are fun and should be something to look forward to every year.

Second, why can't there be more time allowed for D&C?

I hope the SMs in your unit realize that not all cadets need the same requirements every meeting/month/year.

People join all the time, and the C/AB doesn't need to be in the same class as the C/SSgt as the C/CMSgt as the C/Capt.

Third, since this is your sister, can't you practice drill with her at home, and request that that she be tested at the meeting so that she could go to encampment? I've been able to get 5 new cadets up to speed on drill in two meetings - to a basic level. Enough for an Encampment, and it didn't take up all of the meetings either.

[mynetdude]

Great responses, my thoughts on every single thing everybody has said.

1. This tuesday night is already reserved for rocketry/aerospace

2. we do have a senior member who is competent on being able to observe D&C tests but he is only available on Tuesday nights and hasn't showed up for a couple weeks till last

3. You are right none of them should have their curry, they can salute, they can march, they can do parade rest they can do present arms/order arms.

I have not seen them do double time, quick time, half time (those ARE the requirements) and my sister can't even do order arms present arms (FWIW I can't either)

I have a difficult time with doing about face, but I will hopefully learn more at encampment since I am going.

I have emailed the commander, and we'll find out Tuesday night if anything is going to happen.  Cadets don't want to go because A) family B) its their christmas break and C) they won't go unless a specific cadet goes, etc

I'm with you all here!

[mynetdude]

Okay.

First....I am assuming that you are someone of importance in your squadron.

Get with your DCC and tell him of the need for everyone in the squadron to work on their D&C.

This should be practiced every night.  It only takes about 15 minutes to go through all of the required drills for Curry.

For the remedial stuff.....look at another day.  An all day drill work shop. 

Break it up into small groups by ability.

Those who have mastered the list can work with those who still need help.

Off Topic but related.......if your cadets can't drill they should not be getting their Curry.

See my latest post before this one about what the cadets can/can't do.

I actually SUGGESTED we do a Saturday training, but the SM that has better knowledge/skill to do this works on Saturdays and the senior cadet staff have difficulty teaching it and all of our Saturdays are booked until Dec 19th which is almost a month past encampment app deadline

I know they can do it on the 21st but our DCC is saying that there isn't any senior staff to supervise them... he can do it but he will be at the G1000 training course.  I will be asking him again tonight/tomorrow, if he won't get the cadets together on the 21st then I may not go to the meeting on Tuesday and just take her to another unit... but she won't pass by any standards.

[Майор Хаткевич]

One Senior is NOT enough to help with the testing.

Is this a new/small unit? Are there any Cadets who are past the C/SNCO stage?

I've administered the drill test with SM oversight as a C/NCO-Officer.

[mynetdude]

First, why is she the only one going?

Why aren't you or any other cadets going?

Encampments are fun and should be something to look forward to every year.

Second, why can't there be more time allowed for D&C?

I hope the SMs in your unit realize that not all cadets need the same requirements every meeting/month/year.

People join all the time, and the C/AB doesn't need to be in the same class as the C/SSgt as the C/CMSgt as the C/Capt.

Third, since this is your sister, can't you practice drill with her at home, and request that that she be tested at the meeting so that she could go to encampment? I've been able to get 5 new cadets up to speed on drill in two meetings - to a basic level. Enough for an Encampment, and it didn't take up all of the meetings either.

That is why I mentioned I asked her to do some of her D&C and she couldn't even march correctly she doesn't know the difference between half time, double time or quick time (and i sure as heck don't either)

[Майор Хаткевич]

Now I'm confused...

What is your status? Cadet? Senior?

What grade?

[mynetdude]

One Senior is NOT enough to help with the testing.

Is this a new/small unit? Are there any Cadets who are past the C/SNCO stage?

I've administered the drill test with SM oversight as a C/NCO-Officer.

we only have a total of 13 cadets only 2 of them are not regularly there because they have either already achieved the highest available or they just do not care because they are moving onto the SM side.

Its a long story but I am not going to point fingers. We do have NCOs, Right now we are so small all of the cadets do the same thing rather than being split up.

[mynetdude]

Now I'm confused...

What is your status? Cadet? Senior?

What grade?

Sorry I am 1Lt, sister is c/AB

[Майор Хаткевич]

Talk to the CDC* (not DCC). Ask to borrow the most senior NCO. Supervise him/her administer the test to the cadet. Take his/her opinion on what s/he believes the cadet's level is.

Along those lines...a few minutes of drill are not a bad thing...the CDC may need some pointers towards CAPR 52-16.

Also, along those lines, there are instructional drill videos of AF drill online. We also have the AF drill manual (http://sq36.cawg.cap.gov/36-2203.pdf) which can help with learning the drill, etc.

Edit: bad link!

[mynetdude]

Talk to the CDC* (not DCC). Ask to borrow the most senior NCO. Supervise him/her administer the test to the cadet. Take his/her opinion on what s/he believes the cadet's level is.

Along those lines...a few minutes of drill are not a bad thing...the CDC may need some pointers towards CAPR 52-16.

Also, along those lines, there are instructional drill videos of AF drill online. We also have the AF drill manual (http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/afreg/blafman36-2203.htm) which can help with learning the drill, etc.

awesome source of info, thanks

[Майор Хаткевич]

Sure thing, that's why this forum exists.

Also, while her drill may not be perfect, as long as she gets the basics, Encampment should be a beneficial experience that helps her grow into the drill with the help of her flight staff.


Aaaaand the AF link was DOA. http://sq36.cawg.cap.gov/36-2203.pdf

[Nick]

The AF link is dead?  http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/shared/media/epubs/AFMAN36-2203.pdf ?

[Gunner C]

Your unit isn't prepared to teach cadets.  WIWAC the SMs could teach anything in D&C.  You guys need to decide if you are going to train cadets or not.  I'm not scolding but since you're officers in a cadet environment, you need to know the cadet stuff.  If you aren't the masters of THEIR terrain, you'll never have their confidence.

I've gotta tell ya, I would have followed my leaders anywhere back in 1968.  Learn the basics of D&C.  You'll have immediate credibility.

[Nick]

How far is the next closest CAP unit, school with JROTC, or maybe even a military installation/guard unit from you?  They all may have resources that could be beneficial to you -- but I strongly urge you to keep your commander/deputy commander in the loop before you start looking for outside assistance.

[lordmonar]

Your unit isn't prepared to teach cadets.  WIWAC the SMs could teach anything in D&C.  You guys need to decide if you are going to train cadets or not.  I'm not scolding but since you're officers in a cadet environment, you need to know the cadet stuff.  If you aren't the masters of THEIR terrain, you'll never have their confidence.

I've gotta tell ya, I would have followed my leaders anywhere back in 1968.  Learn the basics of D&C.  You'll have immediate credibility.

+1

Cadets don't know or expect much.....but they know drill and they know uniforms.  We know as people with Youth Defencies....that in the real world/long run D&C and uniforms are not really all that important....but to a 14 year old they are the center of their world.

So you have to have a good handle on the D&C....or have a bunch of older cadets that do and can carry it on.

It is not really that hard.  90% of the stuff in the D&C manual are very well explained.  Even if you get it wrong....you will be ball park enough that someone else (like at encampment) can correct them and put the finish on it.

As for what is important....IIRC:

Fall in
Attention
Parade Rest
Present Arms
Order Arms
Right Face
Left Face
About Face
Right Step
Left Step
Forward March
Right Flank
Left Flank
Column Right
Column Left
To the Rear
Flight Halt
Open Ranks
Close Ranks
Dress Right

Thems the basics.

If you can master Count Off, Change Step, Extend and Close march, Column of Files you will have all the tools to get your cadets from point a to point b in a military manner.

[Eclipse]

How far is the next closest CAP unit, school with JROTC, or maybe even a military installation/guard unit from you?  They all may have resources that could be beneficial to you -- but I strongly urge you to keep your commander/deputy commander in the loop before you start looking for outside assistance.

+10

You can learn anywhere, and your unit CC should be encouraging you to seek out what you need if they can't provide it, but the only person who can approve the Curry is your unit CC.

[Nick]

You can learn anywhere...

And to tag onto that ... there are the naysayers out there that will pontificate the differences between learning how to drill from an Army guy or a Navy/Marine Corps guy.  Sure, there's some subtle differences in the way we all drill.  The Army's arm-swing is 9" to the front and 6" to the rear, versus the Air Force 6" to the front and 3" to the rear.  The Navy has a couple funky processes of executing in-ranks commands.  Whatever. 

The point is: We all do a right face the same way.  We all salute the same way.  The trick is to learn the mechanics of performing drill movements sharply and with gusto.  Once you have that down, you can refer to your friendly local copy of AFMAN 36-2203 to fine-tune the lengths, distances, paces, etc... most of which will only affect the more complex movements anyway (except the arm-swing).  But only someone who has been drilling proficiently for a while can teach you the tricks of doing it and looking good doing it.

[Gunner C]

"The Army's arm-swing is 9" to the front and 6" to the rear,"

Maybe the Canadian Army.  But the fact remains, officers in comp/cadet squadrons need to be proficient trainers of cadets.

[mynetdude]

Sure thing, that's why this forum exists.

Also, while her drill may not be perfect, as long as she gets the basics, Encampment should be a beneficial experience that helps her grow into the drill with the help of her flight staff.


Aaaaand the AF link was DOA. http://sq36.cawg.cap.gov/36-2203.pdf

I don't expect perfection from anybody but I expect them to know how to do it, I want to know how to do it but I don't expect and can't be expected to do it perfectly and IMHO if you can't do it just as good as the RM then teaching the cadets is pointless.  If a cadet can do it as good or as close to the RM then a cadet teaching it would be appropriate.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Drill is not hard to perfect. IF you learn it, improving it is really easy.

It's like riding a bike really. You get it, you start shaky, but eventually you get better.

[mynetdude]

Your unit isn't prepared to teach cadets.  WIWAC the SMs could teach anything in D&C.  You guys need to decide if you are going to train cadets or not.  I'm not scolding but since you're officers in a cadet environment, you need to know the cadet stuff.  If you aren't the masters of THEIR terrain, you'll never have their confidence.

I've gotta tell ya, I would have followed my leaders anywhere back in 1968.  Learn the basics of D&C.  You'll have immediate credibility.

Maybe it would be cool to have a cadet encampment for SMs! as in the senior members are the basics (for those who can handle it)

Right now I need to focus on what I can do, in January I'll be looking into pursuing the CoC to have more regular D&C etc but they have already said that is in the works its just a matter of working out the kinks and getting things in place.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I'm still not sure what is going on with your C/NCOs. Anyone past SSgt should be well on the way to drilling flights, not to mention knowing how to do and instruct basic drill. If your C/NCOs are lacking as well, then it's time to ask for outside assistance. Freeze progression, and try to see if some senior cadets from outside can help on a mini weekend training session.

[mynetdude]

I'm still not sure what is going on with your C/NCOs. Anyone past SSgt should be well on the way to drilling flights, not to mention knowing how to do and instruct basic drill. If your C/NCOs are lacking as well, then it's time to ask for outside assistance. Freeze progression, and try to see if some senior cadets from outside can help on a mini weekend training session.

Neither am I, but if you can satisfactorily prove you know how to do it (perfect or not) I suppose you could promote, though would it be acceptable? Probably not

Right now I cannot worry about that until January, right now I am trying to get ONE cadet approved for encampment, the rest is history and it might be to her benefit to hold off on encampment to save her some embarrassment.

Getting outside help this late in the process would be great, technically we still have a bit more time. I only have two more Tuesdays to get the CC to sign off on her CAPF31 (even on promotion night).

we technically have 2 Saturdays (of one the CC will not be available for signoffs) available to us, the question is whether or not the CDC and the cadets of knowledge want to pull their heads together and whether or not any of the basics are motivated to even come get the training this short of notice.

I will be revisiting these issues and seeing if there will be any improvement otherwise I will have to reconsider my options along with my sister in the best interest of leadership and quality.

[lordmonar]

Maybe it would be cool to have a cadet encampment for SMs! as in the senior members are the basics (for those who can handle it)

I don't know if I would go that far.....but I certainly would make the Curry D&C manditory for anyone working on a CP Technician rateing. 

[MIKE]

TLC has an optional portion for D&C.

[Майор Хаткевич]

TLC has an optional portion for D&C.

Eclipse should have a video of a 4 x 4 formation of Senior Members drilling at RST from the 2006 Spring Encampment.

[jimmydeanno]

Each unit should have an instructional DVD provided by National Headquarters from AFROTC that covers basic drill maneuvers.  You can pop it in and learn right in your living room...just sayin'.

[Eclipse]

TLC has an optional portion for D&C.

Eclipse should have a video of a 4 x 4 formation of Senior Members drilling at RST from the 2006 Spring Encampment.

Heh - it's more like a 3.76 x 5.28(ish) formation, but God love-em they were trying!

[mynetdude]

I am relieved we have more time, and I spoke with the CDC this afternoon we're going to get this nailed and hopefully in January things can be better.

I got bombed with a cold, so I almost started to wigg out but thankfully I have GREAT people on my side.

[Ozzy]

Here is another thing... Senior members can go to encampment to help out AND to learn. Perhaps you can try to get a TAC position and learn some stuff from the cadet flight staff and bring some things back to your squadron. You don't need to be a cadet to do that.

[Eclipse]

This was posted yesterday on the cadet blog, looks like just the thing you need...

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/cadet_programs/library/drill__ceremonies.cfm

[mynetdude]

This was posted yesterday on the cadet blog, looks like just the thing you need...

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/cadet_programs/library/drill__ceremonies.cfm

This link causes my browser IE and Fx to crash for some reason, its related to the video and I get runtime errors.

I'll look for another way to get it.

[SarDragon]

You must have something turned off in your browsers. The link works fine in IE7, Firefox 3.5, Chrome and Safari.