Running the cadet program like boot camp.

Started by cadet_dude, October 03, 2006, 04:35:16 AM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

flyguy06

Quote from: Pylon on October 04, 2006, 02:11:54 AM
Quote from: Psicorp on October 03, 2006, 11:53:17 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on October 03, 2006, 11:32:10 PM
So, the change in CAP membership from military minded people to a more youth camp minded people will definitely change the make up of CAP. Us dinosaurs who want it to be more military will become disinchanted and leave and the whole makeup will change. It may be better and it may be worse but it will definitely be a new organization

Who said anything about youth campiness?   There is a big difference between military bearing, protocol, and drill versus treating meetings like you're a drill sergeant on the first day of basic training.   

I think our military mindedness, i.e. ethics, bearing, professionalism, customs, and courtesies only make us more distinct from regular "civilian" organizations.  It also lends us some creditability with governments (all levels) and other agencies because we get oversight from the military.

I have had the honor and pleasure of serving under and with so called "dinosaurs."    We need and want your experience, professionalism,  commitment, and high standards so we can raise a new generation of "dinosaurs."   Egos, however, can be checked at the front door.


I agree.  CAP is unique in that we have a military-based program.  Our ranks, our uniforms, our professionalism all give CAP's program, and in particular the Cadet Program, a leg up on anybody else's program.  We should not get rid of that, but I don't think anybody here is advocating that.

There is a distinct difference between having a profession, well-run cadet program and having over-zealous, unchecked cadet leaders running around like Gunnery Sgt Hartmann in Full Metal Jacket.  Cadet leaders need the appropriate supervision from senior members, and in this case it sounds like they're running around without any level-headed check and balances.  Just as the Air Force (or any other branch) wouln't tolerate such junior leaders in any circumstance, neither should CAP.  This is military.

Cadet leaders are growing, and the Cadet Program is a leadership laboratory.  New cadet NCOs and officers are supposed to be exploring different leadership techniques, styles, and processes.  However, a laboratory is supposed to be a controlled environment.  Those with the leadership experience, in this case the senior members, need to give those cadet leaders focus and direction.  Without that strucutre, they're running around like a soprano-voiced Drill Instructor.

This is certainly an issue that needs immediate attention from experienced leaders.  If the senior members directly in charge of the cadet program at the squadron can't address that, then senior members at the next highest echelon need to step in.  I'm not saying this is the case, but regardless of where that structure and control comes from it needs to be added to the afore described program.

Good luck with that.

Pylon.

You said exactly what I have been trying to say, you just said it more elegantly. Thanks ;D

flyguy06

Quote from: capchiro on October 06, 2006, 10:43:34 AM
Flyguy 06, some senior members have no option but to wear the CAP distinctive uniform for a number of reasons.  That doesn't mean that they are not great assets to the program.  As some people age and develop chronic illnesses, they can not control their weight.  If the military let people stay in until 60-70 years old, I don't think they would all be able to pass their physicals.  Our senior members are not required to be in shape to defend our country.  I would rather have some old member with some maturity and 20 years military experience in the blue and gray than some 22 year old with a tight a-s and no experience.  We can't all look like Tom Cruise in a flight suit, but we can still give of our time and efforts to make this country a better place by contributing to the youth and military in our own way.  As usual, JMHO

I agree with you capchiro. Ther eare exceptions. But that member should be making an effot to put him or herself in a position to wear the military style uniform. That in itself goes to self discipline which is what we are trying to teach cadets inthe first place. We should be able to do PT withthe cadets. We should be able to stand inspection with cadets. If my cadets go through an obstacle course, you better believe I will be leading the way.

ZigZag911

Quote from: flygu/quote]
We should be able to do PT withthe cadets. We should be able to stand inspection with cadets. If my cadets go through an obstacle course, you better believe I will be leading the way.

I presume, sir, that you are either have yet to reach middle age, or are the 21st century version of the fabled Jack LaLanne, the fitness guru!

Most seniors can no longer keep up with teenagers physically, due to a process known as "entropy", also called "aging". Most of us, if we insisted on leading the way through an obstacle course, would turn into additional obstacles for the cadets as they tried to circumnavigate our collapsed forms!

Seriously, a catastrophic accident occurred at an obstacle course about five or six years ago precisely because a couple of seniors were trying to show their cadets how tough they were, and kept challenging one another to "top this".

One is now a paraplegic.

If you can do it, go for it....but please don;t be making others feel guilty about their physical limitations. Fortunately, the US military already has amazing people in Special Operations Command....which does not include CAP.
We set the example by doing the best we can with what we have.

This applies as well to standing inspections -- seniors should absolutely present themselves in flawlessly correct military OR corporate uniforms.

flyguy06

Quote from: flyguy06 on October 07, 2006, 05:53:55 AM
Quote from: capchiro on October 06, 2006, 10:43:34 AM
Flyguy 06, some senior members have no option but to wear the CAP distinctive uniform for a number of reasons.  That doesn't mean that they are not great assets to the program.  As some people age and develop chronic illnesses, they can not control their weight.  If the military let people stay in until 60-70 years old, I don't think they would all be able to pass their physicals.  Our senior members are not required to be in shape to defend our country.  I would rather have some old member with some maturity and 20 years military experience in the blue and gray than some 22 year old with a tight a-s and no experience.  We can't all look like Tom Cruise in a flight suit, but we can still give of our time and efforts to make this country a better place by contributing to the youth and military in our own way.  As usual, JMHO

I agree with you capchiro. Ther eare exceptions. But that member should be making an effot to put him or herself in a position to wear the military style uniform. That in itself goes to self discipline which is what we are trying to teach cadets inthe first place. We should be able to do PT withthe cadets. We should be able to stand inspection with cadets. If my cadets go through an obstacle course, you better believe I will be leading the way.


I wasnt trying to amke anyone feel guilty. Sorry if it came out that way. But you are right and I have always said the two most active groups of people inCAP are teenage cadets and older retired people. CAP needs more young Senior Members to do the things I am talking about. Yes, I am in my mid 30's. I dont run like Iused tobut I still do ok. We need to attract more SM's. I admit though people in my age group are busy with work and family and dont have the time to vlunteer like retired folks do due to our busy lives. I understand that and that is truly a challenege. I dont have the answer to that. Like I said I am in my mid 30's and I am the uoungest SM in my squadron the next youngest in in his 50's

Psicorp

The way I've always understood it, and the way it worked when I was a cadet officer, is that SM's (Officers) provide guidence, support, and leadership training to the cadets, then step back a bit.

If we train our young cadets correctly and build them up, then when they are ready to assume leadership positions, they have the skills and knowledge to lead younger cadets.   

I believe that the Cadet Program belongs to the cadets, they make or break the program after all.   I've seen both extremes:  cadets who get no support from Officers and have to learn the hard way by doing it all on their own, and I've seen cadets who can't exhibit leadership because the Officers are too "involved" and the cadet staff don't have much of a say in anything. There has to be middle ground somewhere, and the maturity and abilities of the cadet staff should determine where that is.

I totally understand the mentality of some Officers who either want to recapture their youth or try to "prove" something to the cadets and to other Officers, but it's unnecessary and it rarily ends well.   


Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

flyguy06

Every situation is different and you are right, it does depend on the maturity of the cadets. I dont think in my situation its so much trying to prove something to cadets. I honestly believe in leading by example. My leaders id it for me and I want to do it for others.

Youare also correct in a lotof units the Senior Members step back and I think thats wrong. What do I vounteer for? I am not a babysitter that goes to meetings and just waits for a cadet to hurtthemselves. I want to be actively involved in training. You never know so much that you cant learn something new I dont care how old you are.

My example is college ROTC. These are young people in their 20's and they have adult leaders that mentor them and lead them and teach them how to be leaders. to me its the same situation.

ZigZag911

Quote from: flyguy06 on October 08, 2006, 12:59:21 AM
My example is college ROTC. These are young people in their 20's and they have adult leaders that mentor them and lead them and teach them how to be leaders. to me its the same situation.

That's an excellent analogy......if we looked to Jr. ROTC (high school program), it would be an even more exact comparison.....the officers formulate policy (sometimes with input from cadets), and guide the cadet leadership in executing the policy, plans, and programs.

Some things need to be handled by the adults (unit finance, transportation)....but wherever cadets can be involved, they should.

Matt

Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 08, 2006, 02:10:13 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on October 08, 2006, 12:59:21 AM
My example is college ROTC. These are young people in their 20's and they have adult leaders that mentor them and lead them and teach them how to be leaders. to me its the same situation.

That's an excellent analogy......
Agreed!

Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 08, 2006, 02:10:13 PM
if we looked to Jr. ROTC (high school program), it would be an even more exact comparison.....the officers formulate policy (sometimes with input from cadets), and guide the cadet leadership in executing the policy, plans, and programs.
Not so agreed.  I've encountered a number of JROTC programs that, for lack of a better term -- suck.  The officers (non-babysitting, paid-type) don't actually mentor their cadets outside of the classroom and rarely show true mentoring within the classroom.  Not to say that they aren't good officers (although some aren't), a lot of the instruction and mentoring is more relevantly done by the NCOs (and even sometimes they lack).

Now, please, don't get me wrong, I think that JROTC programs are indeed worthwhile and shouldn't be taken lightly, but they too struggle with a lot of the same problems we have.

The other problem that JROTC programs face is combatting the school boards, but that in and of itself is another topic.

Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 08, 2006, 02:10:13 PM
Some things need to be handled by the adults (unit finance, transportation)....but wherever cadets can be involved, they should.
Concurred.
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

ZigZag911

[

Quote from: ZigZag911 on October 08, 2006, 02:10:13 PM
if we looked to Jr. ROTC (high school program), it would be an even more exact comparison.....the officers formulate policy (sometimes with input from cadets), and guide the cadet leadership in executing the policy, plans, and programs.
Now, please, don't get me wrong, I think that JROTC programs are indeed worthwhile and shouldn't be taken lightly, but they too struggle with a lot of the same problems we have.
[/quote]

I'll defer to your more immediate knowledge of Jr ROTC programs....my point simply is that the age range of the cadets,and the curriculum, more nearly resemble what we're doing than a program intended to prepare college students for commissioning as officers.
.

flyguy06

I did not refer to JROTC because at least where I come from, JROTC programs are not that serious.