No Helo's in CAP?

[Smoothice]

I was curious, I see lots of planes in the CAP world. Why are there are no Helicopters? I would think that Helicopters in a SAR world would be very helpful. I think I can come up with the answer on my own....$$$$$$    Is that the only reason?

[Eclipse]

They are expensive to maintain, require additional tickets and training to fly them, and the community of GA helo pilots is pretty small.

[heliodoc]

This has been talked about before but at 300 -600 per hour training and maintenance costs AND TRAINING, CAP  could not even envision a helicopter training program.  The already Form 5 process in fixed wing is already pathetic and would only be poorly served in an organization that really does not operate in this environment.

There area couple of operators here that will give you their take on CAP and helicopters..... Flying Pig is of them...

The maintenance is a little more than changing plugs and doing cylinder compression checks... main rotor tracking, tail rotor tracking, power turbine checks, power turbine overhauls, transmission overhauls, driveshaft inspections and replacements, etc would puts CAP's consolidated maintenance program into the proverbial red. 

That is why you have the operators out there with the TRAINING to operate.  Most helo SAR is done through the military, sheriffs office, LE, or contract operators that are accustomed to this world

[Ned]

Besides, given our mission profiles and need for extended loiter time, we should be using airships, not helos.

[capchiro]

Thank you so much.  I just spit coffee all over my keyboard.. However, that being said, you are entirely right.  You are a genious..  And with the amount of hot air we have from our ranks, we should be self-sufficient..

[DC]

Thank you so much.  I just spit coffee all over my keyboard.. However, that being said, you are entirely right.  You are a genious..  And with the amount of hot air we have from our ranks, we should be self-sufficient..

[flyerthom]

Besides, given our mission profiles and need for extended loiter time, we should be using airships, not helos.

I got see this airship from the air at night while in a helicopter at work. She's a beauty.

[Flying Pig]

The initial training and on going training required to fly a helicopter during SAR would far exceed the capabilities of CAP and the budgets.  We are having our "hot section" of our engine overhauled right now and its going to be about $175K.  its not due to damage, just time requirements.
Now, I would imagine if CAP got helicopters, we would have a slew of pilots available to join and fly them.  "If you build it they will come" concept. However,  adding the training to be a helicopter crew chief/observer/flight officer (whatever you want to call it) would be significant when it comes to rescues.  Realistically, we would have to go with Jet Rangers or MD500s which will set you back about $650k to 1 mil for a used one if you wanted to actually transport people out of areas.  R-44s or the Schweizer 300C might be an option if we just wanted to search really low and slow.
Is there a place in CAP for helicopters?  You bet there is.  You could fly lower and slower and get a good look, or land and have the observer check on something, but thats about it.  A good R44 or Schweizer 300 is equal to or even less than a new 182.  It would be a neat concept.  If CAP did do it, I really dont think it would be long before plenty of pilots joined to support it.  However, maintenance on any helo, turbine or piston is a alot more than any C182.

[PHall]

And CAPR 60-1, Para 2-4a has the short and sweet answer. They're prohibited for any CAP operations.

[heliodoc]

Correct PHall,

Prohibited due to fact of lack of knowledge or wanting to gain knowledge in those areas.

CAP would be wise to incorporate it somewhere in its lifetime due to the fact that SOME CAP cadets have migrated to the USAF helo program and became Pave Low HH-60 drivers and others. Some have gone inter service with helo ops.

But I understand....... CAP has a pretty risk averse nature after all these years and had plenty-o-time to AT LEAST teach the some of the operations in the last 40 years other than the lame SQTR we have of "how to" position lights at night for incoming

Nothing wrong with teaching helo stuff now BUT......

[Hawk200]

I was curious, I see lots of planes in the CAP world. Why are there are no Helicopters? I would think that Helicopters in a SAR world would be very helpful.

We don't really do rescue as a normal course of action. If it's to save life or limb, it's permitted, but in general we don't take that as a normal course.

I think I can come up with the answer on my own....$$$$$$    Is that the only reason?

Considering the expense, that could easily be the only reason. It's not, but it would be perfectly sufficient to be the only one.

I haven't worked on civilian helicopters, but working on military helicopter I've held parts in my hands that were easily $50,000. Granted it was a 'Hawk, but helicopter parts are pretty expensive.

Helicopter parts are also replaced pretty often compared to the light aircraft that CAP has. Most of our aircraft have 100 hour and annual inspections. The military helicopters that I work on have inspections starting at approximately 10 hours of flight. That's not even including preflights or dailies.

[flyguy06]

I was curious, I see lots of planes in the CAP world. Why are there are no Helicopters? I would think that Helicopters in a SAR world would be very helpful.

We don't really do rescue as a normal course of action. If it's to save life or limb, it's permitted, but in general we don't take that as a normal course.

I think I can come up with the answer on my own....$$$$$$    Is that the only reason?

Considering the expense, that could easily be the only reason. It's not, but it would be perfectly sufficient to be the only one.

I haven't worked on civilian helicopters, but working on military helicopter I've held parts in my hands that were easily $50,000. Granted it was a 'Hawk, but helicopter parts are pretty expensive.

Helicopter parts are also replaced pretty often compared to the light aircraft that CAP has. Most of our aircraft have 100 hour and annual inspections. The military helicopters that I work on have inspections starting at approximately 10 hours of flight. That's not even including preflights or dailies.

How would a Blackhawk compare to a R-22 in terms of maintence?

[PHall]

I was curious, I see lots of planes in the CAP world. Why are there are no Helicopters? I would think that Helicopters in a SAR world would be very helpful.

We don't really do rescue as a normal course of action. If it's to save life or limb, it's permitted, but in general we don't take that as a normal course.

I think I can come up with the answer on my own....$$$$$$    Is that the only reason?

Considering the expense, that could easily be the only reason. It's not, but it would be perfectly sufficient to be the only one.

I haven't worked on civilian helicopters, but working on military helicopter I've held parts in my hands that were easily $50,000. Granted it was a 'Hawk, but helicopter parts are pretty expensive.

Helicopter parts are also replaced pretty often compared to the light aircraft that CAP has. Most of our aircraft have 100 hour and annual inspections. The military helicopters that I work on have inspections starting at approximately 10 hours of flight. That's not even including preflights or dailies.

How would a Blackhawk compare to a R-22 in terms of maintence?

How useful would a 2 seat R-22 be to CAP?

[Eclipse]

And don't we operate under primarily civilian aviation rules?

There wouldn't be any "put me down on this roof / road / parking lot"...

[Flying Pig]

CAP would have to decide what they were going to be used for like I said above.  Obviously we would never use Blackhawks.  But I think a solid piston, an R44 or a 300C could be beneficial in certain areas.  Instead of saying "Hey I see something uder that tree!"  the crew could actually land and check it out or get right down on it and look vs looking from 500-1000 ft.  I cant see CAP ever being in a position  to actually do rescues with helicopters. 

[ol'fido]

Probably a better use of time and resources would be to rework and update CAP's procedures for working with helicopters from other agencies. The ones I have seen were pretty superficial. We should probably know: 1. How big a PZ for a particular model of helicopter.
2. PZ approach clearances. 3. Rotary wing marshalling. 4 PZ marking. 5.Working with hoists and slingloads(that static discharge can knock the socks off you...literally). But I am just dusting the book off. Some of you like Flying Pig and the other rotary wing types could probably come up with a pretty good "Gorilla" guide for this. All I know is what I learned at LightFighter.

[PHall]

Probably a better use of time and resources would be to rework and update CAP's procedures for working with helicopters from other agencies. The ones I have seen were pretty superficial. We should probably know: 1. How big a PZ for a particular model of helicopter.
2. PZ approach clearances. 3. Rotary wing marshalling. 4 PZ marking. 5.Working with hoists and slingloads(that static discharge can knock the socks off you...literally). But I am just dusting the book off. Some of you like Flying Pig and the other rotary wing types could probably come up with a pretty good "Gorilla" guide for this. All I know is what I learned at LightFighter.

Okay, I'll bite, what the heck is a "PZ"?  Is that an LZ (Landing Zone) with a new name?

[Flying Pig]

^HA...I didnt want to be the one to ask!!  Good for you Im a weenie

[flyguy06]

^HA...I didnt want to be the one to ask!!  Good for you Im a weenie

A PZ is a pick up zone. I have heard it used before......... in the army. but not here in CAP

[Hawk200]

How would a Blackhawk compare to a R-22 in terms of maintence?

Don't know, never worked on an R-22. But I think that I'd be safe in saying that any helicopter with similar horsepower, useful load, and number of seats equivalent to a 182 is going to cost more to maintain.

Number one reason: vibration. I don't care how smooth any helicopter that someone's ridden in seems to be, the vibration wears things out faster. That and the parts that rotate probably thousands of times faster. That adds up to higher tolerances, parts replaced more often, and more costly parts.

So in the end, it boils down to the money. We're a volunteer air force, I don't know many people that would join the organization to foot the bill on that kind of thing. We get people that join up and don't mind a couple hundred to start (to include dues, uniforms, and the little things that a person might need), but the several hundred plus to maintain a helicopter would scare more than a few people off, and would turn it into an elitist type of organization.

I don't have a problem if a person wants to volunteer their personnel helicopter (I only know one person in CAP that owns one) to do a "land and check out" in a mission, but I don't think CAP should get into the ownership of rotary wings.