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memebership problem

Started by c/LTCOLorbust, August 04, 2006, 05:42:50 PM

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c/LTCOLorbust

Question, My girl friend who is 18 is thinking about joining but she would have to join as a Senior member, are there any Regs against a senior member and cadet dating as a long as no one can tell at a CAP activity or in uniform? ??? I am 19 but want to stay in the cadet program till 21... can this happen or would I have to become a Senior member or her not join?
1Lt. Joshua M. Bergland
Yakima Composite SQ.
WA Wing

MIKE

If she is 18, but not yet 19, she can join as a cadet baring other disqualifying factors.

IIRC there was language added to the latest draft of CAPR 52-16 regarding fraternization, so keep this in mind.
Mike Johnston

Eclipse

Correct, the presumed "ready to be ratified" version prohibits fraternization between cadets and seniors, regardless of age (about time).  :clap:

"That Others May Zoom"

MIKE

Quote from: Eclipse on August 04, 2006, 06:15:13 PM
Correct, the presumed "ready to be ratified" version prohibits fraternization between cadets and seniors, regardless of age (about time).  :clap:

IIRC it also mentions cadets who are of significantly different grades... C/Capt dating a C/Amn.
Mike Johnston

Becks

Or better yet, dont bring your relationship into CAP, its unprofessional, keep it outside the meeting hours.

BBATW

Chris Jacobs

Make sure it stays away from CAP.  No one should be able to tell that you are dating while at CAP.  I have seen some cases were the relation ship goes bad on a CAP trip and it affects every one on the trip.  Think about the team first.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

MIKE

Mike Johnston

Becks


BBATW

smj58501

Quote from: Becks on August 04, 2006, 06:44:33 PM
Quote from: MIKE on August 04, 2006, 06:42:21 PM
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on August 04, 2006, 06:38:49 PM
Think about the team first.

Take the ugly one.  ;D

Lmao, but thats what paper bags are for

>:D No no no.... how do you think the term "lights out" really came into existance anyways?
Sean M. Johnson
Lt Col, CAP
Chief of Staff
ND Wing CAP

Cadet Bonnett

So.. you have a girl firend that wants to join CAP. She's 18 years old, and you are 19. If she joined as a Cadet, you would be dating an Airman and it is against regs. If she joined as a senior, and she was dating a cadet then that too is against regs.  So either she should wait to join until you are a senior member, or you make a sacrifice and turn Senior. It's all up to you two at this point and time.
Cadet A1C Christin Bonnett
Registered Peer Mediator
SET, GES Certified
NH Wing

El Campamento del Ala de NH aquí yo vengo.

lordmonar

We already have retention problems and now they are going to throw this at us.....

IMHO...it will be counter productive.  The last thing I want to be as a squadron commander is checking up on who is dating who.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Pylon

Quote from: c/LTCOLorbust on August 04, 2006, 05:42:50 PM
Question, My girl friend who is 18 is thinking about joining but she would have to join as a Senior member, are there any Regs against a senior member and cadet dating as a long as no one can tell at a CAP activity or in uniform? ??? I am 19 but want to stay in the cadet program till 21... can this happen or would I have to become a Senior member or her not join?

Keep it so professional that nobody (save for perhaps some select close friends, if you're a trusting individual) in CAP would ever even know that you had a relationship.  That means the whole nine yards.  No exchanging glances, no flirting even inadvertantly, certainly no PDA, and no discussion of the relationship.

This doesn't mean you have to be "cold" to each other at the meetings, but rather you guys only interact when you're supposed to be, and only conduct CAP business.

The age difference isn't inappropriate.  The only mental barrier here is a totally artificial and arbitrary system set up by CAP.  If you can keep other people in CAP from knowing, or even keeping rumors from being generated, than you should have no issue at all.

This isn't an integrity issue.  Other people in CAP have no business needing to know who you're dating outside of CAP so long as it isn't infringing on CAP.

I've known a senior-ranking cadet engaged to a flight officer, cadets dating cadets, and seniors dating each other -- each situation where most people in CAP were none the wiser.

Your mileage may vary, and it's your own decision, but I wouldn't let CAP ruin any relationship you might have, nor let your relationship force you to end your CAP cadet career earlier than you would have wished. 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

SarDragon

#12
I had two cadets in my last unit who were "an item". None of the seniors had any idea, and we tried to be duly observant. ISTM that everyone did their jobs, and no one was the wiser. I happened to see them together, outside CAP, and merely congratulated them. No harm, no foul. YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

c/LTCOLorbust

#13
1Lt. Kieloch, I understand were you are coming from and agree with what you said... But I also have another person here saying other wise, do you or any one else know were to find the reg for this issue? I always like to go back to the books with anything... Just some times its hard to find some things..

1Lt. Joshua M. Bergland
Yakima Composite SQ.
WA Wing

SarDragon

Well, unless I'm missing the boat here, there is currently no reg to cover the situation, save perhaps CPPT, and since the "situation" presumably did not occur at a CAP event, that would be difficult to enforce.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Heather

Quote from: MIKE on August 04, 2006, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 04, 2006, 06:15:13 PM
Correct, the presumed "ready to be ratified" version prohibits fraternization between cadets and seniors, regardless of age (about time).  :clap:

IIRC it also mentions cadets who are of significantly different grades... C/Capt dating a C/Amn.

does that mean that a cadet capt. cant date a staff sgt. even if they're in different squadrons?
C/TSgt. Bourne, Heather
GT3, CERT, Radio Comm. certified
399th Composite Squadron

SarDragon

#16
Quote from: Heather on August 05, 2006, 11:33:47 PM
Quote from: MIKE on August 04, 2006, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 04, 2006, 06:15:13 PM
Correct, the presumed "ready to be ratified" version prohibits fraternization between cadets and seniors, regardless of age (about time).  :clap:

IIRC it also mentions cadets who are of significantly different grades... C/Capt dating a C/Amn.

does that mean that a cadet capt. cant date a staff sgt. even if they're in different squadrons?

I believe that is the intent of the revision, if not the letter. Enforcement will be a problem. Anybody got a link or a posted copy available?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Psicorp

Quote from: SarDragon on August 06, 2006, 01:53:11 AM
Quote from: Heather on August 05, 2006, 11:33:47 PM
Quote from: MIKE on August 04, 2006, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 04, 2006, 06:15:13 PM
Correct, the presumed "ready to be ratified" version prohibits fraternization between cadets and seniors, regardless of age (about time).  :clap:

IIRC it also mentions cadets who are of significantly different grades... C/Capt dating a C/Amn.

does that mean that a cadet capt. cant date a staff sgt. even if they're in different squadrons?

I believe that it the intent of the revision, if not the letter. Enforcement will be a problem. Anybody got a link or a posted copy available?


Just an FYI on something I came across on the "Knowledge Base":

Question
  Where can I find guidance on unprofessional relationships between CAP members?

  Answer
  Although CAP members are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and this AF regulation, some sound guidance on professional and unprofessional relationships can be found in AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2909 PROFESSIONAL AND UNPROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIPS.

This instruction establishes command, supervisory and personal responsibilities for maintaining professional relationships between Air Force members, between Air Force members and members of other uniformed services, between Air Force members and civilian employees of the Department of Defense, to include Air Force civilian employees, and between Air Force members and government contractor employees. Unprofessional relationships are those interpersonal relationships that erode good order, discipline, respect for authority, unit cohesion and, ultimately, mission accomplishment. It is the responsibility of commanders and supervisors at all levels to ensure compliance with this instruction. Following are extracts from AFI 36-2909.

2.2. Unprofessional Relationships. Relationships are unprofessional, whether pursued on or off-duty, when they detract from the authority of superiors or result in, or reasonably create the appearance of, favoritism, misuse of office or position, or the abandonment of organizational goals for personal interests.

3.1. Relationships Within an Organization. Familiar relationships between members in which one member exercises supervisory or command authority over the other can easily be or become unprofessional. Similarly, differences in grade increase the risk that a relationship will be, or will be perceived to be unprofessional, because senior members in military organizations normally exercise authority or some direct or indirect organizational influence over the duties and careers of more junior members. The danger for abuse of authority is always present. The ability of the senior member to influence, directly or indirectly, assignments, promotion recommendations, duties, awards, and other privileges and benefits, places both the senior member and the junior member in vulnerable positions. Once established, such relationships do not go unnoticed by other members of a unit. Unprofessional rela-tionships, including fraternization, between members of different services, particularly in joint service operations, can have the same impact on morale, discipline, respect for authority and unit cohesion, as if the members were assigned to the same service, and must be avoided.

3.3. Dating and Close Friendships. Dating, courtship, and close friendships between men and women are subject to the same policy considerations as are other relationships. Like any personal relationship, they become matters of official concern when they adversely affect morale, discipline,unit cohesion, respect for authority, or mission accomplishment. Members must recognize that these relationships can adversely affect morale and discipline, even when the members are not in the same chain of command or unit. The formation of such relationships between superiors and subordinates within the same chain of command or supervision is prohibited because such relationships invariably raise the perception of favoritism or misuse of position and erode morale, discipline and unit cohesion.

8. Actions in Response to Unprofessional Relationships. If a relationship is prohibited by this instruction or is causing (or if good professional judgment and common sense indicate that a relationship may reasonably result in) a degradation of morale, good order, discipline or unit cohesion, a commander or supervisor should take corrective action. Action should normally be the least severe necessary to terminate the unprofessional aspects of the relationship

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

CLB

I'll give my spin on this.  My wife happens to be on WG staff here, and there are STILL people in my SQ that don't know that we're married, regardless of the last names on our fatigues.  We made a promise to each other to keep the whole PDA, fraternization, flirting things out of the way while in uniform. 

I happen to be a 1Lt, she a 2Lt, I'm a SQ level Comm Officer, and she's the WG level Personnel Director, so in a way we outrank each other and in a way we don't.   

That's what you call keeping it away from business haha. 
Capt Christopher Bishop
Coastal Charleston Composite Squadron

BillB

The only problem I have is a 18 year old senior dating a 20 year old cadet. Both are adults. They may have been dating for 3-4 years, but suddenly CAP says they can no longer have an away from CAP relationship.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

MIKE

Cadet becomes a senior... Crisis averted.



Mike Johnston

c/LTCOLorbust

See I think thats wrong, Its more wrong if those two people don't show it in anyway when in uniform or at CAP events.
1Lt. Joshua M. Bergland
Yakima Composite SQ.
WA Wing

BillB

And if the cadet is a C/SMSgt, you want him/her to turn senior without earning the Mitchell, becoming a senior with NO rank? To forego scholarships available only to cadets?  No wonder membership is dropping, the inflexibility of CAP to understand the real world is carried to the extreme.  As long as there is no PDA in uniform, or it effects the operating of the Squadron, what the relationship is between consenting adults is none of CAP's business.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

shorning

Well...it's all a matter of priorities now isn't it?  You can't have everything in the world.

NIN

Friend of mine was a Capt, former Spaatz cadet.  His girfriend was a 19 or 20-year old C/Capt. They'd been dating for some time as I recall, but he was still a senior when they met.

We're at my old group CO's house for his birthday party and he hands her CAPF 12s and a pen, looks at her boyfriend and says (I'm not making this up) "The signature goes on before [insert a euphemism that I won't repeat in front of the cadets]"

We all busted up laughing, but she did carry around that filled-out CAPF 12 with the commander's signature on it until she turned 21.  (Actually, she might have gone Flight Officer right after that. I honestly don't remember. This was like 1990.. I lost a number of those brain cells at Fort Hood the next year..)

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Psicorp

*grin*

Too funny, sir.

On the flip side of all of this, I can't imagine how depressing it would be for a cadet to turn senior in order to make a relationship be in accordance with S.O.P. and then have a break up.  If the cadet was over 18 he/she gets is stuck with being a S.M..   Priorities, priorities.
Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

Heather

glad that is settled but I'm still not sure on my situation
C/TSgt. Bourne, Heather
GT3, CERT, Radio Comm. certified
399th Composite Squadron

MIKE

Well... CAPR 52-16 just passed, so unless they changed some wording since it was up for comment...
Mike Johnston

Heather

do you have a link for it? That would be helpful! :-\
C/TSgt. Bourne, Heather
GT3, CERT, Radio Comm. certified
399th Composite Squadron

ncc1912

#29
Quote from: c/LTCOLorbust on August 04, 2006, 05:42:50 PM
Question, My girl friend who is 18 is thinking about joining but she would have to join as a Senior member, are there any Regs against a senior member and cadet dating as a long as no one can tell at a CAP activity or in uniform? ??? I am 19 but want to stay in the cadet program till 21... can this happen or would I have to become a Senior member or her not join?

Back to the issue at hand:

Colonel, no reasonable senior member is going to have a problem with what you are doing regardless of rank or membership category as long as you keep it professional.

That being said, don't misunderstand what fraternization is.  Take it from a active duty Air Force guy, in the military and among CAP senior members it is OK for a major to date a first lieutenant as long as the major is not in the lieutenant's chain-of-command.  If they're both staff officers (not line), such as communications and personnel, how cares?  It is OK (but extremely rare) for a chief master sergeant to date a airman first class.  As long as the chief is not in a position to directly supervise the airman no conflict of interest is implied.

Among CAP cadets the same holds true, however, in my opinion, it's OK for a second lieutenant to date a technical sergeant as long as one is not placed in a position over the other.  Our squadrons, for the most part, are far too small and cadets advance way too fast to try to eliminate/prevent enlisted/officer relationships among cadets.  Senior cadets and senior members should be quick to squash issues relating to the known relationships among cadets such as cadets trying to pull rank over their girl/boyfriends.  Squadron commanders and cadet commanders should be observant enough and keep couples separate in the organization of the squadron.

CAP has went one step further, though; senior member/cadet.  It is highly unlikely that any two cadets dating each other are going to be born on precisely the same day.  Therefore, if they are still dating when one becomes a senior member, then that new senior member has (technically) started off his/her new career in violation of the regulations.

When we are referring to a relationship that spans less than 18-24 months in age difference, then I think it should be CAP's policy to turn the other cheek when it is a pre-existing relationship when there are no obvious signs of fraternization when in uniform and/or at meetings or activities.  On the other hand, anything more than 24 months should be taken with additional concern (more than just the regulations), especially when we are talking about 15-20 year olds.

Married couples who wish to work together within the unit:  Easy... for example, make one the personnel officer and one the administration officer.  Neither one supervises the other and their positions are supervised directly by the commander or a deputy.

Not to invoke an sigh of expected boredom, but when I was a cadet, at the age of 15, I was dating a girl 13 months older than me whom later joined CAP.  On her 21st birthday, she became a senior member and, of course, I was still one month short of 20.  Needless to say, no one was going to question our aged relationship or ask us to discontinue it as long as we kept it out of CAP, at least for the next 13 months.   For the seven years I was a cadet no one could ever tell that we were dating unless they asked.  My squadron commander's attitude was that 'as long as the only CAP members who know about our relationship were in our squadron and we don't bring it to the meetings and activities, we were golden.'  ...an opinion I wish every squadron commander shared.

Your best option would be to discuss it with your SQ CC and see what he/she says.  His/Her support is ultimately what you are going to have to have.  It is not a good idea to come to your commander with a problem unless you have a solution in hand, so if I were in your position I would suggest to your commander, that your girlfriend (as a senior) not be placed in a position to supervise you.  If she can join as a cadet, you/your cadet commander should not put yourself/you in a position to supervise her.  This would probably be better for your relationship, as well. :)

Good Luck and Simper Vigilans!
//SIGNED//
JUSTIN B. BAIER, Major, CAP
"Dislocated Member"
Civil Air Patrol - United States Air Force Auxiliary
Active-duty USAF
Seoul, Republic of Korea

Heather

"It is OK (but extremely rare) for a chief master sergeant to date a airman first class.  As long as the chief is not in a position to directly supervise the airman no conflict of interest is implied." - quote from ncc1912


ok...I think this answers my question...thanks!
C/TSgt. Bourne, Heather
GT3, CERT, Radio Comm. certified
399th Composite Squadron