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memebership problem

Started by c/LTCOLorbust, August 04, 2006, 05:42:50 PM

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c/LTCOLorbust

Question, My girl friend who is 18 is thinking about joining but she would have to join as a Senior member, are there any Regs against a senior member and cadet dating as a long as no one can tell at a CAP activity or in uniform? ??? I am 19 but want to stay in the cadet program till 21... can this happen or would I have to become a Senior member or her not join?
1Lt. Joshua M. Bergland
Yakima Composite SQ.
WA Wing

MIKE

If she is 18, but not yet 19, she can join as a cadet baring other disqualifying factors.

IIRC there was language added to the latest draft of CAPR 52-16 regarding fraternization, so keep this in mind.
Mike Johnston

Eclipse

Correct, the presumed "ready to be ratified" version prohibits fraternization between cadets and seniors, regardless of age (about time).  :clap:

"That Others May Zoom"

MIKE

Quote from: Eclipse on August 04, 2006, 06:15:13 PM
Correct, the presumed "ready to be ratified" version prohibits fraternization between cadets and seniors, regardless of age (about time).  :clap:

IIRC it also mentions cadets who are of significantly different grades... C/Capt dating a C/Amn.
Mike Johnston

Becks

Or better yet, dont bring your relationship into CAP, its unprofessional, keep it outside the meeting hours.

BBATW

Chris Jacobs

Make sure it stays away from CAP.  No one should be able to tell that you are dating while at CAP.  I have seen some cases were the relation ship goes bad on a CAP trip and it affects every one on the trip.  Think about the team first.
C/1st Lt Chris Jacobs
Columbia Comp. Squadron

MIKE

Mike Johnston

Becks


BBATW

smj58501

Quote from: Becks on August 04, 2006, 06:44:33 PM
Quote from: MIKE on August 04, 2006, 06:42:21 PM
Quote from: Chris Jacobs on August 04, 2006, 06:38:49 PM
Think about the team first.

Take the ugly one.  ;D

Lmao, but thats what paper bags are for

>:D No no no.... how do you think the term "lights out" really came into existance anyways?
Sean M. Johnson
Lt Col, CAP
Chief of Staff
ND Wing CAP

Cadet Bonnett

So.. you have a girl firend that wants to join CAP. She's 18 years old, and you are 19. If she joined as a Cadet, you would be dating an Airman and it is against regs. If she joined as a senior, and she was dating a cadet then that too is against regs.  So either she should wait to join until you are a senior member, or you make a sacrifice and turn Senior. It's all up to you two at this point and time.
Cadet A1C Christin Bonnett
Registered Peer Mediator
SET, GES Certified
NH Wing

El Campamento del Ala de NH aquĆ­ yo vengo.

lordmonar

We already have retention problems and now they are going to throw this at us.....

IMHO...it will be counter productive.  The last thing I want to be as a squadron commander is checking up on who is dating who.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Pylon

Quote from: c/LTCOLorbust on August 04, 2006, 05:42:50 PM
Question, My girl friend who is 18 is thinking about joining but she would have to join as a Senior member, are there any Regs against a senior member and cadet dating as a long as no one can tell at a CAP activity or in uniform? ??? I am 19 but want to stay in the cadet program till 21... can this happen or would I have to become a Senior member or her not join?

Keep it so professional that nobody (save for perhaps some select close friends, if you're a trusting individual) in CAP would ever even know that you had a relationship.  That means the whole nine yards.  No exchanging glances, no flirting even inadvertantly, certainly no PDA, and no discussion of the relationship.

This doesn't mean you have to be "cold" to each other at the meetings, but rather you guys only interact when you're supposed to be, and only conduct CAP business.

The age difference isn't inappropriate.  The only mental barrier here is a totally artificial and arbitrary system set up by CAP.  If you can keep other people in CAP from knowing, or even keeping rumors from being generated, than you should have no issue at all.

This isn't an integrity issue.  Other people in CAP have no business needing to know who you're dating outside of CAP so long as it isn't infringing on CAP.

I've known a senior-ranking cadet engaged to a flight officer, cadets dating cadets, and seniors dating each other -- each situation where most people in CAP were none the wiser.

Your mileage may vary, and it's your own decision, but I wouldn't let CAP ruin any relationship you might have, nor let your relationship force you to end your CAP cadet career earlier than you would have wished. 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

SarDragon

#12
I had two cadets in my last unit who were "an item". None of the seniors had any idea, and we tried to be duly observant. ISTM that everyone did their jobs, and no one was the wiser. I happened to see them together, outside CAP, and merely congratulated them. No harm, no foul. YMMV.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

c/LTCOLorbust

#13
1Lt. Kieloch, I understand were you are coming from and agree with what you said... But I also have another person here saying other wise, do you or any one else know were to find the reg for this issue? I always like to go back to the books with anything... Just some times its hard to find some things..

1Lt. Joshua M. Bergland
Yakima Composite SQ.
WA Wing

SarDragon

Well, unless I'm missing the boat here, there is currently no reg to cover the situation, save perhaps CPPT, and since the "situation" presumably did not occur at a CAP event, that would be difficult to enforce.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Heather

Quote from: MIKE on August 04, 2006, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 04, 2006, 06:15:13 PM
Correct, the presumed "ready to be ratified" version prohibits fraternization between cadets and seniors, regardless of age (about time).  :clap:

IIRC it also mentions cadets who are of significantly different grades... C/Capt dating a C/Amn.

does that mean that a cadet capt. cant date a staff sgt. even if they're in different squadrons?
C/TSgt. Bourne, Heather
GT3, CERT, Radio Comm. certified
399th Composite Squadron

SarDragon

#16
Quote from: Heather on August 05, 2006, 11:33:47 PM
Quote from: MIKE on August 04, 2006, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 04, 2006, 06:15:13 PM
Correct, the presumed "ready to be ratified" version prohibits fraternization between cadets and seniors, regardless of age (about time).  :clap:

IIRC it also mentions cadets who are of significantly different grades... C/Capt dating a C/Amn.

does that mean that a cadet capt. cant date a staff sgt. even if they're in different squadrons?

I believe that is the intent of the revision, if not the letter. Enforcement will be a problem. Anybody got a link or a posted copy available?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Psicorp

Quote from: SarDragon on August 06, 2006, 01:53:11 AM
Quote from: Heather on August 05, 2006, 11:33:47 PM
Quote from: MIKE on August 04, 2006, 06:20:23 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on August 04, 2006, 06:15:13 PM
Correct, the presumed "ready to be ratified" version prohibits fraternization between cadets and seniors, regardless of age (about time).  :clap:

IIRC it also mentions cadets who are of significantly different grades... C/Capt dating a C/Amn.

does that mean that a cadet capt. cant date a staff sgt. even if they're in different squadrons?

I believe that it the intent of the revision, if not the letter. Enforcement will be a problem. Anybody got a link or a posted copy available?


Just an FYI on something I came across on the "Knowledge Base":

Question
  Where can I find guidance on unprofessional relationships between CAP members?

  Answer
  Although CAP members are not subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and this AF regulation, some sound guidance on professional and unprofessional relationships can be found in AIR FORCE INSTRUCTION 36-2909 PROFESSIONAL AND UNPROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIPS.

This instruction establishes command, supervisory and personal responsibilities for maintaining professional relationships between Air Force members, between Air Force members and members of other uniformed services, between Air Force members and civilian employees of the Department of Defense, to include Air Force civilian employees, and between Air Force members and government contractor employees. Unprofessional relationships are those interpersonal relationships that erode good order, discipline, respect for authority, unit cohesion and, ultimately, mission accomplishment. It is the responsibility of commanders and supervisors at all levels to ensure compliance with this instruction. Following are extracts from AFI 36-2909.

2.2. Unprofessional Relationships. Relationships are unprofessional, whether pursued on or off-duty, when they detract from the authority of superiors or result in, or reasonably create the appearance of, favoritism, misuse of office or position, or the abandonment of organizational goals for personal interests.

3.1. Relationships Within an Organization. Familiar relationships between members in which one member exercises supervisory or command authority over the other can easily be or become unprofessional. Similarly, differences in grade increase the risk that a relationship will be, or will be perceived to be unprofessional, because senior members in military organizations normally exercise authority or some direct or indirect organizational influence over the duties and careers of more junior members. The danger for abuse of authority is always present. The ability of the senior member to influence, directly or indirectly, assignments, promotion recommendations, duties, awards, and other privileges and benefits, places both the senior member and the junior member in vulnerable positions. Once established, such relationships do not go unnoticed by other members of a unit. Unprofessional rela-tionships, including fraternization, between members of different services, particularly in joint service operations, can have the same impact on morale, discipline, respect for authority and unit cohesion, as if the members were assigned to the same service, and must be avoided.

3.3. Dating and Close Friendships. Dating, courtship, and close friendships between men and women are subject to the same policy considerations as are other relationships. Like any personal relationship, they become matters of official concern when they adversely affect morale, discipline,unit cohesion, respect for authority, or mission accomplishment. Members must recognize that these relationships can adversely affect morale and discipline, even when the members are not in the same chain of command or unit. The formation of such relationships between superiors and subordinates within the same chain of command or supervision is prohibited because such relationships invariably raise the perception of favoritism or misuse of position and erode morale, discipline and unit cohesion.

8. Actions in Response to Unprofessional Relationships. If a relationship is prohibited by this instruction or is causing (or if good professional judgment and common sense indicate that a relationship may reasonably result in) a degradation of morale, good order, discipline or unit cohesion, a commander or supervisor should take corrective action. Action should normally be the least severe necessary to terminate the unprofessional aspects of the relationship

Jamie Kahler, Capt., CAP
(C/Lt Col, ret.)
CC
GLR-MI-257

CLB

I'll give my spin on this.  My wife happens to be on WG staff here, and there are STILL people in my SQ that don't know that we're married, regardless of the last names on our fatigues.  We made a promise to each other to keep the whole PDA, fraternization, flirting things out of the way while in uniform. 

I happen to be a 1Lt, she a 2Lt, I'm a SQ level Comm Officer, and she's the WG level Personnel Director, so in a way we outrank each other and in a way we don't.   

That's what you call keeping it away from business haha. 
Capt Christopher Bishop
Coastal Charleston Composite Squadron

BillB

The only problem I have is a 18 year old senior dating a 20 year old cadet. Both are adults. They may have been dating for 3-4 years, but suddenly CAP says they can no longer have an away from CAP relationship.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104