NB Minutes "CAP has had more visable suicides lately"

[RiverAux]

Before we do this

Which is why we are looking for the genuine article - an evidence based program that we could effectively employ given the exisiting training and resource limitations of our dedicated senior members.

Shouldn't we at least evaluate this?

it presents as a serious risk to our cadets.

There is no evidence of this.  Yes, it is a risk to youths in general, but is there evidence that CAP is experiencing more than it should?  About the same as you would expect?  Or much less than you would expect?  If it is the latter, maybe no program is needed.... 

The first google result I got for "teen suicide rates" was this http://www.familyfirstaid.org/suicide.html indicating that in 2001 the teen suicide rate was 0.01%.  For a cadet population of 22,426 that means we should expect about 22 cadet suicides a year.  If we only had a couple then I'd say we're already on top of things and no action is necessary.   (Yes, this is somewhat old data and there are some other issues with it and I'm sure more current stuff is available, but it is meant to give you an example of the sort of thinking that we should be doing before implementing new programs). 

   

[Short Field]

I don't understand the hostility here.  I certainly agree that nobody wants or needs some sort of useless "death by PowerPoint" class disguised as a Suicide Prevention program.

Maybe because you don't have to sit through the "death by PowerPoint" briefings that get mandated by National and Wing.  The squadron endured the first hour of a CRM briefing at the last meeting.  The briefer was just reading the slides and then ad libbing stuff for each bullet.  I swear he gave the same points and the same discussion items multiple times before the briefing was over.  After an hour, we still have not gotten to "crew".   The previous meeting we heard a briefing that was designed by National for Wing PAOs.  The intended audience was NOT your squadron level personnel.  That 15 minute briefing (as scheduled and advertised) was packed into a "fun filled" 45 minutes as the briefer rambled on.

[Ned]

As I indicated, there is no practical way to determine the actual number of CAP member suicides per annum, for a whole lot of different reasons.

But there is certainly no reason to believe that our teen suicide rates are any different then the general population, either.


And,  using your figures, 22 deaths a year is a huge loss.  That's the equivalent of losing an entire squadron full of cadets each year.  Each of which was almost certainly preventable.

Again, I don't know whether we can field an effective program given our limited expertise and resources. 

But are you arguing that we shouldn't even do the research to see what is available and practical?

Let's save the argument for the time, if any, that a specific proposal is available for discussion.  Until then, it just feels a little creepy to argue that CAP shouldn't even bother to try to prevent 22 cadets deaths a year.

[fyrfitrmedic]

 The research needs to be done BEFORE a handout like that is disseminated.

[Gunner C]

The number given above for suicides in 1966 was 33,000.  In a 300,000,000 population that's  .01% or (in the cadet population) 2.42 cadets.  While this is always a horrible tragedy, do we stand a chance to find those 2 cadets even with putting lots of resources into it?  Probably not.

These cadets have parents, teachers, friends, clergy, etc who spend a lot more time with them than we do.  I don't think we're the venue for this.  We already give cadets many things that the general population doesn't get:  belonging, achievement, recognition, mentorship, and a bit of anti-drug rah-rah.  My hunch is that our suicide rate (while not zero - NatCap had one a couple of years ago) is lower than the general population.

[Daniel]

I don't understand why CAP would have suicide rates, I mean CAP pulled me from a hard time in my life. I quit going to counseling every week and maybe check in with her once a month. CAP isn't ever going to be a problem or cause for depression, for me atleast,  it was a solution.

[C/MSgt Lunsford]

I still don't get the point of this thread. I don't think people kill their selves because of the Civil Air Patrol. Most Cadets are in High School or just graduated. Maybe it is because of the stress of school or just life itself (Problems at home). It is not because of CAP. I don't know why anybody would even think it is because of CAP. Civil Air Patrol Cadets don't see combat. There is nothing to kill yourself over in CAP.

[Climbnsink]

Talking about suicides is one thing that we know for certain increases suicides.  Do we want the same CAP geniuses that taught quarters in a DARE program to talk about suicide?  Especially when suicide isn't a problem for our population.  I don't want to belittle anyone's death but a couple of members killing themselves every year is not a problem to be addressed.  I wonder how many CAP members die per year falling off ladders?  I think we should have mandatory ladder safety classes and work or way up to suicide prevention.  Wait let's do shower safety, ladder safety,  then suicide.       

[FW]

Let me make things a little clearer....
CAP DOES NOT HAVE A SUICIDE PREVENTION PROGRAM!!!!!

However, we do have a CISM program which is quite effective and, the "handout" was produced by the National CISM officer.  The sheet was written to inform the NB of the prevalence of suicide in the population and the "copycat" nature of suicide in teenagers and young adults. 

As leaders and mentors of cadets, it is our responsibility to recognize this and to watch for certain behaviors, to refer to the chaplains or to parents and, when traumatic events occur in a unit, insure there are appropriate avenues to work things out.

[notaNCO forever]

 Their is also a Moral Leadership class (or whatever they call it now) about suicide. I don't now if it's one of the older classes but it is one that should be taught. I think the most CAP could do is require a class like that to be taught annually; otherwise, I don't think much more can be done.   

[RiverAux]

As I indicated, there is no practical way to determine the actual number of CAP member suicides per annum, for a whole lot of different reasons.

Oh, I don't know about that.  To start with, we do track deaths of CAP members, though the system isn't all that airtight http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/news/cap_news_online/final_salute/index.cfm

And if we thought it was important enough to be considering a program, you could survey squadron commanders about it. 

And if we have no way to track CAP member suicides, just how do we expect to determine if any program designed to prevent it is working? 

But are you arguing that we shouldn't even do the research to see what is available and practical?

Yes.  First you do the research to determine if CAP has a suicide "problem" and then if you determine that this is the case, then you do the research to figure out the best way of addressing it. 

But there is certainly no reason to believe that our teen suicide rates are any different then the general population, either.

I would propose that our rates are probably better than the general population, at least among cadets active in the program.  Again, this is something we should actually know before trying to do something about it.

[RedFox24]

Again, I don't know whether we can field an effective program given our limited expertise and resources. 

Again Ned, you and the other out of touch "leaders" at NHQ don't know if you can field an effective program, but you can cram a bunch more useless, time consuming, restrictive mandates down the throats of our paying volunteer members for problems that don't exist or that you lack the "expertise and recourses" for so that the NB can have a warm fuzzy feeling when they sit at the bar and pat each other on the back.

[wuzafuzz]

Cadet leaders should be aware of this issue and be able to recognize when someone is at risk.  Make a notification to parents if needed.  Don't play amateur counselor. 

I don't want CAP to try and become my smothering Big Brother.

As far as PowerPoints go, the term "Death by PowerPoint" exists for a reason.  The thought of combining suicide prevention and PowerPoint creates visions of gasoline fumes and matches.

[Major Lord]

It's hard to believe that the document was written by a PhD. He shows statistics to demonstrate that suicide exists, then merely mentions that former or current cadets committed suicide in the last year, and implies that maybe-kinda-sorta a SM might have too. What an incredibly sloppy piece of thinking and typically bureaucratic and [self-serving] attempt to inculcate CAP with the culture of pseudo-psychology. Yes, lets let the people who spent our money on NASCAR create yet another pointless and impotent system to address a risk that may not even exist beyond normal Bell curve distribution. There is excellent evidence to indicate that CISM programs reinforce and perpetuate Delayed Stress Syndrome claims, so maybe we should start the suicide prevention program by investigating whether these people create more problems than they solve. Sweet mother of Buddha!

Major Lord


edit: watch the language [mod]

The word you censored means " : excessively self-absorbed or self-indulgent " Its not what you think......

[NIN]

Just out of curiosity, what are the other two leading causes?

(A quick google search reveals that traffic accidents are #1, and youth violence is #2. Not 100% sure of the validity of this stat..)

So this begs the question: what are we doing to reduce the potential for youth death in CAP traffic accidents (oh, wait..) and youth violence awareness?

*sigh*

Much as I hate to admit it, Maj Lord is right: The paper quoted above does a poor job of showing decision makers that Civil Air Patrol, specifically, has a suicide problem. At least any more so that, say, a school or neighborhood.   I am loathe to call it "fear mongering" but the way its written leaves the conclusion so unclear that I get the impression that the author hopes that people will make a leap of logic and assume that because the stats for the country are there, and we draw from the population of our country, clearly we have a "problem" when probably we do not.

I would tend to believe (and this is based on nothing so more than my own experiences in the program, both as a participant and as a leader) that CAP cadets probably have a LOWER incidence of suicide and youth violence due to the inherent support mechanisms in the units, and the overall "being a part of something larger."    If we attract loners, they either tend to become a part of the group (and then, by definition, potentially cease being "loners") or they leave CAP (because it doesn't suit their personality/lonerness.. for lack of a better term).   Bullies and miscreants who would perpetrate youth violence don't  don't do well in our environment, and since our cadets can now associate themselves with a "big blue gang" and become adherents to our Core Values, I would expect that they'd find themselves further and further from the situations, places and people that would expose them to youth violence.  (however, if youth violence is pervasive in that cadet's area, like, say, an inner-city area, that might be a moot point).

That's just an off the top of my head spitball there, but my guess is that I'm not too far off the mark.

[Spike]

Seriously......who here knows of a Cadet (and I mean personally met the individual) that committed suicide?  Anyone here in a Squadron that had a Cadet commit suicide?  Anyone at an activity where a Cadet committed Suicide?? 

I know of ONE.  In my long time in CAP, I have met one Cadet who for all intents and purposes seemed absolutely normal, and showed no signs or symptoms. 

The best we can do here is steal the Army/ Air Force suicide "help card" that shows what symptoms and signs to look for.  However, it has been proved that usually there are no signs because the individual keeps his or her emotions bottled up.  Unless the kid starts giving all of his or her things away and saying stuff like "man life would be better if I were dead", or "I am going to kill myself with Dad's gun tonight", we can not pick up on the signs and symptoms in the short amount of time we spend with them at unit meetings. 


If it comes down to me having to stand in front of my Cadets and asking "does anyone here feel like committing suicide".....it may be time for me to leave CAP.  WE (most of us) are not trained to discuss these personal issues or counsel children on this kind of level.  Last I looked, you need a license in my State to do that.  Heck, we should even call in outside professionals should a Cadet decide to kill himself or herself.  Which was not the case in the situation I personally know about.     

[NIN]

The word you censored means " : excessively self-absorbed or self-indulgent " Its not what you think......

There was probably a better word to use than that particular one....

[NIN]

I think it is important to note: The use of CISM-trained members would be entirely appropriate in circumstances where there has been a suicide in a unit.   If my unit had a situation like that, I'd get the wing chaplain, our CISM folks, and any other resources I had at my disposal in to talk to my folks, etc.   And potentially, surrounding units if the cadet were someone, say, who was an encampment staff member, well-liked CAC cadet, etc.

I spent 28 years as a cadet & senior.  I know of only a few incidences of suicide in CAP in those 28 years, most of them anecdotal, not someone in my unit or even someone I knew.   

[davidsinn]

Seriously......who here knows of a Cadet (and I mean personally met the individual) that committed suicide?

One former cadet. It was a recent thing. He quit quite a while ago and I only met him once or twice.

[RedFox24]

Seriously......who here knows of a Cadet (and I mean personally met the individual) that committed suicide?  Anyone here in a Squadron that had a Cadet commit suicide?  Anyone at an activity where a Cadet committed Suicide??       

In 30 years in this program I know 1 (one) that I personally met, had him at encampment.  Thats one person out of over 2500 cadets that I have been in contact with at 15 encampments.