USAF force shaping & contractors

Started by mikeylikey, May 26, 2006, 01:26:34 PM

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afgeo4

There is a different issue.  There's a fixed number of airmen slots in the air force and the more you use contractors for non-combatant jobs, the more airmen you free up for jobs like security police, civil engineering, flight operations, aircraft maintenance, etc. 

If you take a look at Air Force manning, you'll see that there are lots of heavily undermanned AFSCs out there and those aren't ones that are being replaced by contractors. 

Also, when we talk about personnel expenses, please remember that even though the contractor expenses are higher than airman salaries, these contracts do not receive BAH, BAS and Tricare and not just for the worker him/herself, but for the entire family!  The BAH alone can more than make up the difference.  For example, an E-6 with 2 dependents and 10 years of service who is stationed in the NYC greater area makes $2770.50 in pay a month plus $2119.00 in BAH, and $267.18 in BAS for a grand total pay of $5056.68 of standard pay without any extra flight, hazard, or combat pay.  I bet it's a lot more than most people thought the military paid.  Now I know that NYC isn't the standard BAH rate, but it's out there.  The average BAH rate's probably closer to $800 a month, but it's still not shabby at all.
GEORGE LURYE

Hammer

Quote from: justin_bailey on June 01, 2006, 03:06:06 PM
You have to separate salary from cost.  Although a contractor may be making a higher salary, you have to consider the cost of health care, paid time off, other benefits, housing, administration, issued equipment, insurance, etc. that the AF has to pay for its own people.

True, I never thought of that.

Quote from: afgeo4 on June 01, 2006, 03:19:34 PM
There is a different issue.  There's a fixed number of airmen slots in the air force and the more you use contractors for non-combatant jobs, the more airmen you free up for jobs like security police, civil engineering, flight operations, aircraft maintenance, etc. 

If you take a look at Air Force manning, you'll see that there are lots of heavily undermanned AFSCs out there and those aren't ones that are being replaced by contractors. 

That's also.  However I have heard of some Military Bases that Contract out the Security at thee gates.

Al Sayre

What do you mean some?  I haven't been to a U.S. base in the last 20 years that had military gate guards.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

shorning

Quote from: Hammer on June 01, 2006, 01:17:23 PM
I just want to say that at USAFE/DO and USAFE/LG, they DID did do the same things.  I have nothing against Contractors, but when one is making more than an O-6 makes for doing less work, that's not right.

I assure you, while it may appear that they do the same things, they don't.  I'm sure your dad says they did, but if he really thought about it, they don't.  They are paid to focus on specific areas whereas the military member has a whole gambit of other things they are required to do in addition to their primary job.  If they don't like it, they can always get out.  No one is ever going to get rich being in the military.  Military service is not about the money.  Anyone who thinks it is (or should be) needs to find another line of work.

shorning

Quote from: Hammer on June 01, 2006, 04:13:50 PM
However I have heard of some Military Bases that Contract out the Security at thee gates.

So?  Putting civilians on the gates frees up military members to work other issues.  Security patrols, deployments, etc.  It's all about manning.


Quote from: Al Sayre on June 01, 2006, 04:20:18 PM
What do you mean some?  I haven't been to a U.S. base in the last 20 years that had military gate guards.

The AF recently started hiring contractors to man the gates.  Both bases I've been at in the past two years have just hired contractors.  So, five years ago, there were still many military members on the gates.  If I'm not mistaken, the Army is in the same boat.

Al Sayre

The Navy's been that way for years, and the Army base here where I live has been for at least the 5 years since I moved to town...
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

Pylon

Quote from: shorning on June 01, 2006, 07:47:22 PM
Quote from: Hammer on June 01, 2006, 04:13:50 PM
However I have heard of some Military Bases that Contract out the Security at thee gates.

So?  Putting civilians on the gates frees up military members to work other issues.  Security patrols, deployments, etc.  It's all about manning.

Exactly as Steve said -- so what?  When an Airman (or Soldier, Sailor, Coastie, etc.) has been trained, where are they more valuable?  Playing mall security guard at the gate of an ANG base in an American suburb or performing other more important military-specific jobs for which he or she is trained?  Anybody can staff the front gate to a base and check ID cards.    Why waste talent in the skycops we've trained for so many other things?

Contractors free up our military personnel to do "military" things.  Why bother put an airman through BMT, train him to shoot, drill, and all this other stuff if you're just going to have him doing landscaping?
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

Hammer

Quote from: Pylon on June 01, 2006, 08:30:54 PM
Quote from: shorning on June 01, 2006, 07:47:22 PM
Quote from: Hammer on June 01, 2006, 04:13:50 PM
However I have heard of some Military Bases that Contract out the Security at thee gates.

So?  Putting civilians on the gates frees up military members to work other issues.  Security patrols, deployments, etc.  It's all about manning.

Exactly as Steve said -- so what?  When an Airman (or Soldier, Sailor, Coastie, etc.) has been trained, where are they more valuable?  Playing mall security guard at the gate of an ANG base in an American suburb or performing other more important military-specific jobs for which he or she is trained?  Anybody can staff the front gate to a base and check ID cards.    Why waste talent in the skycops we've trained for so many other things?

Contractors free up our military personnel to do "military" things.  Why bother put an airman through BMT, train him to shoot, drill, and all this other stuff if you're just going to have him doing landscaping?

I didn't say that I disagree with puting Contractors at  the gate.  I ws just saying that they are there.

shorning

Quote from: Hammer on June 02, 2006, 01:17:29 AM
I didn't say that I disagree with puting Contractors at  the gate.  I ws just saying that they are there.

You're not even following along with your own arguments, are you?  You should at least try to remember what you're arguing about.  As for the "contractor issue", I'd say "case closed".  Nothing to see here.  Move along...

afgeo4

Oh and let's not forget that many, if not most, of those DOD civillians are actually traditional reservists and guardsmen.  They are fully trained in their respective AFSC/MOS and perform their jobs as civillian employees most of the time and as military reservists/guardsmen on drill days.  Their full-time service earns them points toward retirement, points toward rating upgrade (3,5,7,9), and experience similar to active duty counterparts.   That experience and constant readiness of the said individual saves the DOD money on pre-deployment training and overall unit ability.  Not to mention the fact that it provides these men and women local jobs when they could have moved out to the big cities to commute to drills once a month.
GEORGE LURYE

mikeylikey

Lets face the fact that by contracting out services, it not only helps provide jobs for the locality but will help to keep the money in the area.  You can really see how much of an impact the closing of a installation has not so much on the military, but the community because a lot of people had a stake in providing services to that base or post.  You can go to the Defense Contracting Office website, and see what percentage of contractors operate on a national scale, and what percent are strictly local business.  It is very interesting.  One contracting change that needs to be made, is to open up military bases and posts to other national chain retaurants.  I am so sik of eating at the PX/BX fast food courts or the Burger Kings!  Get something like Outback or TGI Fridays!  Sorry, these type of contractors are different than what ws being discussed above. 
What's up monkeys?

afgeo4

Shouldn't be a problem in bringing in restaurants such as you've mentioned on the AAFES side.  It's just that these restaurants would directly compete with the Enlisted/Officer Clubs and I'd rather have the clubs than some TGI Friday's.  Now, having said that, I do see new "faces" on posts.  Subway is one.  You may see many fast food joints replaced by more healthy alternatives soon, but in the end, it'll still be fast food.  "Normal" food's served in dining facilities anyway.
GEORGE LURYE

dwb

QuoteGEORGE LURYE, Capt, CAP

Woah, when did that happen?  Congrats!

afgeo4

Upon PCS'ing to NYC and taking on the group staff slot and thanks  ;D   I'll send you 10% of my pay for all the stuff you've done for me, k?  k.
GEORGE LURYE

Hammer

Quote from: afgeo4 on June 02, 2006, 05:38:22 AM
Oh and let's not forget that many, if not most, of those DOD civillians are actually traditional reservists and guardsmen.  They are fully trained in their respective AFSC/MOS and perform their jobs as civillian employees most of the time and as military reservists/guardsmen on drill days.  Their full-time service earns them points toward retirement, points toward rating upgrade (3,5,7,9), and experience similar to active duty counterparts.   That experience and constant readiness of the said individual saves the DOD money on pre-deployment training and overall unit ability.  Not to mention the fact that it provides these men and women local jobs when they could have moved out to the big cities to commute to drills once a month.

Sweet. That's good.  BTW, can the DoD Civilian Awards earned as a DoD Civilian be worn on the Air Force's Uniform?

shorning

Quote from: Hammer on June 08, 2006, 10:20:54 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on June 02, 2006, 05:38:22 AM
Oh and let's not forget that many, if not most, of those DOD civillians are actually traditional reservists and guardsmen.  They are fully trained in their respective AFSC/MOS and perform their jobs as civillian employees most of the time and as military reservists/guardsmen on drill days.  Their full-time service earns them points toward retirement, points toward rating upgrade (3,5,7,9), and experience similar to active duty counterparts.   That experience and constant readiness of the said individual saves the DOD money on pre-deployment training and overall unit ability.  Not to mention the fact that it provides these men and women local jobs when they could have moved out to the big cities to commute to drills once a month.

Sweet. That's good.  BTW, can the DoD Civilian Awards earned as a DoD Civilian be worn on the Air Force's Uniform?

No.  But the AF uniform manual would have answered your question too.