CAP leaders working TSA waiver

[Spike]

NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS – Civil Air Patrol is urging the Department of Homeland Security's Transportation Security Administration to grant CAP members a waiver from new requirements that officials believe would seriously hinder the members' ability to perform the vital missions they carry out daily.

The new requirement, issued Dec. 10 and now scheduled to take effect June 1, would require Security Threat Assessments for all general aviation owners and operators using commercial airports. Aircrew members would also be required to obtain special photo IDs.

In seeking a waiver for Civil Air Patrol, CAP National Commander Maj. Gen. Amy S. Courter has advised TSA that applying the new requirements to the organization would curtail its performance of emergency operations missions for the Air Force and other agencies, which include:

    * Flying more than 70,000 hours in fiscal 2008 in support of Air Force missions;
    * Providing 60-80 percent of scheduled daily flights in support of Air Force North's air defense and defense support to civil authorities; and
    * Carrying out daily flights for search and rescue, disaster response, homeland security and counterdrug missions.

Members performing those missions routinely use commercial airports, Courter said, because those facilities offer advantages that smaller airports and military bases do not.

Individual members' costs for the security screenings and ID cards outlined in the TSA directive would vary by airport but are expected to range from $15 to $100 or more, for each airport where access is needed.

The organization's budget cannot cover that expense, Courter said. Expecting the members to pay for access cards to any commercial airport(s) they may use is "unreasonable," she added, given the hundreds of hours they volunteer each year in service to their communities and the nation.

In addition, she noted, all CAP adult members go through an FBI Criminal Justice Information Services background check in order to become a member. They are able to gain entry to military bases by showing appropriate CAP and photo identification card(s) – a process that could also be used to meet the upcoming TSA security requirement, she said.

CAP officials are continuing to work with federal officials in response to the requirements of the TSA security directive. Members should take no action at this time in regard to the waiver initiative; however, any member wanting to personally apply and pay for a TSA special photo ID may do so, as those applications are now available

I saw no discussion here on this subject. 

What does everyone think?  Is this going to be yet another cost to the yearly dues?

Would a Federal Government CAC work in this case? 

[es_g0d]

The TSA is out of control.  I'm hoping that freedom prevails.

[Smithsonia]

I can hardly wait for TSA to go through our on-board  mountain survival kit... the
flare gun will make them ever so crazy.

[es_g0d]

Until just a few years ago, a firearm was REQUIRED equipment (per state law) here in Alaska.  We ought to bring that back. 

[AlphaSigOU]

If I remember correctly (and somenone correct me if I'm wrong) there was a move to create a CAC-like card as a CAP photo ID a few years ago but Ma Blue had kittens sideways and nixed it. Thus came the current photo ID, which we have to shell out an additional $4.

Unlikely we'll have a CAC-like smart card unless Ma Blue changes her mind. Since entry to any military installation is dependent on the installation commander, entry requirements vary widely; some will accept CAP membership card backed up with other photo ID, others will not let you in unless you are on a current access list and sponsored by AD military. Increased FPCON postures may make it even more difficult to get in, or if you are already in, to get around the base. Even then, the civilian 'gate gumbys' at the main gate may have no earthly clue what CAP is. (Seriously, they probably don't get briefed about it unless an AD SP tells 'em.)

We may have to suffer going through the indignity of having to get Roto-Rootered thoroughly to get special IDs, much like port workers already have to go through. And pay $100+ for the privilege.

[Johnny Yuma]

I personally have absolutely ZERO respect for TSA after what they did to General Joe Foss:

http://www.homeofheroes.com/news/archives/2002_0100_foss.html

[Spike]

^
Terrible. 

[RiverAux]

I personally have absolutely ZERO respect for TSA after what they did to General Joe Foss:

http://www.homeofheroes.com/news/archives/2002_0100_foss.html

Hmm, while TSA had been authorized by Congress almost two months before this incident, it doesn't look like they started recruiting and hiring their own people until almost two months after this happened according to a little internet browsing.  So, you might want to drop the grudge. 

[jimmydeanno]

I don't like TSA either.  I love paying $600.00 to be treated like a prisoner.  The only difference is that in prison I think I'd get searched less.

[Smithsonia]

In WW2 at the height of the darkest days the CAP Courier Service flew right into the major airbases all over the West. We flew 14,000 per month, just in the Courier planes.

We landed on West Coast military fields worried about Japanese attacks. We landed at Boeing Field in Seattle, the Lockheed Plant Van Nuys, and the Douglas Factory Santa Monica, each with anti-aircraft batteries. We landed on Civilian Fields all over the place.

We landed in an individually prescribed manner at each base so that they knew it was CAP. We had the most flight hours of any organized group in the US military. At least 3 pilots left CAP with more flight hours than even the most senior crews in the Pacific or European Theaters.

We flew in without radios... we landed... we taxied to the tower or operations and reported in. Usually, if the weather cost us time, we weren't on schedule either. So we might not be there when we said we would. We carried sidearms. We were trusted. We were needed. There was no TSA. We did a lot of business and SAR work. We'll get it figured out.

[Flying Pig]

^Although TSA can be over bearing, NOBODY get treated like that anymore so its not a relevant argument when everyone keeps going back to WWII to justify things CAP should be able to do.

[heliodoc]

^^^x2

Doing the above things "like during periods of WWII" will surely get a Form 5 would  more than likely get yanked today , wouldn't you agree///

All this reference of what wer (CAP) did in WWII was GREAT then

We are now 2009, a very new world with alot of problems set up for us by DHS and TSA to solve.... CAP is not going to do this one alone, so we best start teaming up with the likes of AOPA and other partners in GA.  I know we have done this already ....more to do

CAP and WWII are over.  This history is and was wonderful....The men and women back then, are our greatest generation

The current CAP....well, with all the risk averse and lawyering up we got going on... well you can figure it out!!!!

[jimmydeanno]

CAP and WWII are over.  This history is and was wonderful....

No kidding, I chuckle every time I read through some of our squadron's historical WWII correspondence, etc and see requests for .50 cal machine guns for guard duty at the local airport.  Or re-read the information about one of our cadets who was shot by a senior member with a handgun while they were on night-watch.

A different time indeed, but one does have to wonder whether or not we even need TSA.  Why are we putting our personal protection into the hands of someone else?  Wouldn't a better solution be to let everyone walk onto the plane armed?  Someone steps out of line and the rest of the passengers deal with the situation. 

Ya, I'll be ok with screening for bombs, but are my flip-flops such a threat that they must be x-rayed while I'm in another room being strip searched because I have a pair of fingernail clippers in my pocket and have been deemed "an enemy of the state" because I happen to have my CAP uniform in my luggage?

But, back to the original topic, this is an obvious area that needs to be addressed, and in all reality shouldn't have ever even become an issue.  It's a requirement that is adding unneeded bureaucracy and expense to an already burdened area of our economy, all in the name of job security.

[JayT]

CAP and WWII are over.  This history is and was wonderful....

A different time indeed, but one does have to wonder whether or not we even need TSA.  Why are we putting our personal protection into the hands of someone else?  Wouldn't a better solution be to let everyone walk onto the plane armed?  Someone steps out of line and the rest of the passengers deal with the situation. 

Ya, I'll be ok with screening for bombs, but are my flip-flops such a threat that they must be x-rayed while I'm in another room being strip searched because I have a pair of fingernail clippers in my pocket and have been deemed "an enemy of the state" because I happen to have my CAP uniform in my luggage?

Yeah, because everyone who has a gun is trained to fight on an airline, and equiped with low velocity ammunition.

Get real.

[Smithsonia]

Since folks are commenting on my WW2 reference, I suppose that I should too. We are trusted - or - we are not. Meaning, we'll get a "work-around" - or we won't. If we don't get a work around... then we will not be considered necessary. We will not be considered trusted. Then we'll know that our day is passing. Then we'll know that we are obsolete, or irrelevant. We'll know if the folks in Washington have any future need of us in their plans. We'll find out soon.

We matter or we don't. We're part of the team - or not. We're not living in the past. We're not judged from the past. However, our purpose, mission, and status ARE informed by our past... Reading into the WW2 reference any more than that... is wishful thinking, or antiquated thinking. Literally our future is being weighed right now. In this they are balancing the possibility that we'll be more of a problem than a solution. We've jumped through smaller hoops than this before (as in WW2). And as I said, we'll find out soon.

I think they'll keep us on the team, just like WW2 and for most of the same reasons.

[jimmydeanno]

Yeah, because everyone who has a gun is trained to fight on an airline, and equiped with low velocity ammunition.

Get real.

Because stripping everyone of everything obviously makes a difference...so much so that hijackers can take over a plane with a box cutter...

I was "getting real." Just let citizens who normally carry anyway to continue to do so. No point in continuing to try and make people fear guns and the people who carry them. No "low velocity" rounds needed, no SWAT team airliner tactics need to be learned. 

How's that quote go?  "A well armed society is a polite society?"

[JayT]

Yeah, because everyone who has a gun is trained to fight on an airline, and equiped with low velocity ammunition.

Get real.

Because stripping everyone of everything obviously makes a difference...so much so that hijackers can take over a plane with a box cutter...

I was "getting real." Just let citizens who normally carry anyway to continue to do so. No point in continuing to try and make people fear guns and the people who carry them. No "low velocity" rounds needed, no SWAT team airliner tactics need to be learned. 

How's that quote go?  "A well armed society is a polite society?"

I'm sure that the familes of the Columbine students, or the V-Tech students, or the parents of the Dunblane students, would agree.

[sparks]

Arm everyone so commercial airports can resemble the wild west. The guys and gals getting snockered at the bar or onboard can take out their anger by popping a few ticket agents, flight attendants or YOU. At least the only danger now is getting punched out or slammed with a lap top.

No, I'm not a fan of TSA either but more guns on planes isn't the answer. Giving everyone a baseball bat when boarding might be interesting (no booze please).

[flyguy06]

The TSA is out of control.  I'm hoping that freedom prevails.

Freedom isnt FREE. It comes with a price. (Not that I am defending TSA) I have no  opinion on the subject

[es_g0d]

Freedom must be fought for; freedom versus security is a continual balance.  TSA has swung too far towards security, and is attempting to limit our freedoms unnecessarily.

And yes, I'm fighting for freedom, in more ways than one.

[Spike]

TSA has swung too far towards security, and is attempting to limit our freedoms unnecessarily.

I don't agree with some things TSA is doing (like screening pilots and making them purchase credentials), but they are now part of the culture.  If I must take my shoes off and dump my nail clippers so be it.  What I really hate is the fact that some airlines are now charging a checked bag fee for the first bag.  I know I have to check a bag if I want to take my nail clippers and shaving cream, but don't make me pay for it because you can make a few extra dollars.  That is criminal.

I doubt TSA will grant CAP it's waiver.  The Government is a business (even if they don't come out and say it) and this is a way to make some Cash and employ some more minimum wage clerks.     

[Al Sayre]

To quote Benjamin Franklin:  "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

[Spike]

To quote Benjamin Franklin:  "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

True quotation, but it is helpful to remember his context, and time period. 

[Al Sayre]

You mean the time where the British government was imposing arbitrary rules on the population in the name of security for the government?

[davidsinn]

To quote Benjamin Franklin:  "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

True quotation, but it is helpful to remember his context, and time period.

You mean the time where the British government was imposing arbitrary rules on the population in the name of security for the government?

The context and time period are irrelevant. That quote still holds as true today as then. Part of being an American is always defending our freedom and not being complacent. Even today a civilian in Britain is a subject. An American is a citizen....for now....

[desertengineer1]

I can only begin to wonder about the effects.  "For every airport" pretty much removes our ability to conduct SAR missions from an arbitrary mission base, or to do SAREX's at all. 

If this is pushed as it is written, we're done.

[ol'fido]

Ya'all can some out to our local airport if you need to fly. Most days the manager comes out early to unlock the building and then goes home unless he has work to do around the place like mowing. If you need fuel, there is a sign with his phone number on it.

[desertengineer1]

The members who really want to fly will probably get the ID's.  I would.  However, to have to register for every possible GA airport we may use means the death of CAP.  It's a no solution equation.

[davidsinn]

The members who really want to fly will probably get the ID's.  I would.  However, to have to register for every possible GA airport we may use means the death of CAP.  It's a no solution equation.

What about those units like mine that meet at the FBO and drill on the ramp?

[desertengineer1]

What about those units like mine that meet at the FBO and drill on the ramp?

I guess you'll be in the parking lot.  If your meeting place is part of a hangar (as with several of our units here), the rules elude you're out of luck. 

Yeah, this one stinks no matter the angle.

[sardak]

From a letter from AOPA, which also has issues with this TSA directive:
To avoid spreading incorrect information among our pilot communities, here are the facts we can share about this SD, which have been verified to the best of our ability:
· Because this Security Directive (SD) has been classified "Security Sensitive" it cannot be freely distributed. If you come across the document online, AOPA is advising members that they should not open, download or distribute it because it could lead to a criminal investigation.
· The TSA does not consider Airport Support Network (ASN) volunteers "need to know" individuals per 49 CFR 1542.303(f)(1-2).
· The SD requirements only apply to airports with commercial airline service.
· Pilots will not need a badge issued by every airport they visit. [This conflicts with earlier information from TSA.]
· Escort procedures for transient pilots are in place, and have been for quite some time. This SD should not change those existing escort procedures according to the airport's security plan.

Stories AOPA has published on this issue:
http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/region/2009/090416montana.html?WT.mc_id=090417epilot&WT.mc_sect=gan
http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2009/090317tsaliaison.html
http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2009/090312tsaliaison.html
http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2009/090224badges.html
http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2009/090212tsa.html
http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2008/081218security.html

Mike

[davidsinn]

What about those units like mine that meet at the FBO and drill on the ramp?

I guess you'll be in the parking lot.  If your meeting place is part of a hangar (as with several of our units here), the rules elude you're out of luck. 

Yeah, this one stinks no matter the angle.

The FBO here is one building with 3 hangars. Our office has a window into #1 Hangar. The local girl scout council meets in another part of the building. AFAIK we don't have any commercial here at C65.

[AlphaSigOU]

So, as long as you don't meet in an airport that has commercial service, you should be good to go according to Thousands Standing Around.

One of the airplanes in our group is based at Dallas Love Field; all those who regularly fly that aircraft have to have an airport ID badge that allows access to the SIDA (Security Identification Display Area). Essentially, the TSA is making the whole air ops area inside the airport perimeter a SIDA, if you have commercial service or airplanes that are over 12500 lbs (at KADS, that's quite common).

[Gunner C]

CAP and WWII are over.  This history is and was wonderful....

A different time indeed, but one does have to wonder whether or not we even need TSA.  Why are we putting our personal protection into the hands of someone else?  Wouldn't a better solution be to let everyone walk onto the plane armed?  Someone steps out of line and the rest of the passengers deal with the situation. 

Ya, I'll be ok with screening for bombs, but are my flip-flops such a threat that they must be x-rayed while I'm in another room being strip searched because I have a pair of fingernail clippers in my pocket and have been deemed "an enemy of the state" because I happen to have my CAP uniform in my luggage?

Yeah, because everyone who has a gun is trained to fight on an airline, and equiped with low velocity ammunition.

Get real.

I'm sure you haven't been strip searched - especially because you have a CAP uniform.  I'm sorry, that's just dumb and inflamatory.  As far as the guns, well, they don't have low velocity ammo. But there are other folks in the air besides FAMS with weapons.  Trust me on that.

Every search protocol is driven by intelligence received from the Intel Community of which I'm a member.  Kip Hawley changed everything - when Adm. Stone was the administrator, everything was considered a threat, so everything was searched.  Now, it is VERY targeted.  You may not see it, but it's there.  When Hawley was the TSA administrator he maintained qualification as a TSO - he knew exactly what was going on at the check points.  Things were changed, personnel were upgraded, and frankly, the security you go through now is completely different from what you experienced 4 years ago. 

If you want the security to go away in both commercial and GA, then tell your congress critter.  But I'm telling you that you don't know what the threats are out there.  They are numerous and dangerous. The enemy has not slacked up one bit - they are constantly probing the security layers.  Many of the security protocols have been dropped - the threat just isn't there and the threat has changed greatly in the past 4-5 years.  But as soon as TSA goes back to pre-9/11, there will be great risk.

[jimmydeanno]

...and inflamatory. 

It was meant to be, I can't stand TSA.  My last flight about a month an a half ago included...

A 30 minute line to go through the detectors/security checkpoint.
Removal of my shoes, belt, zip up sweatshirt and hat.
The TSA guy giving me attitude for not having my deodorant in a 1Qt clear plastic baggie.
A "random" test on my bag to check for some sort of explosive residue.
Before boarding I was called for a "random" recheck.
Getting off the plane I was called for a "random" recheck.
Picking up my luggage there was one of those "TSA has opened your bag" thingys, with my stuff crammed back into it.

TSA takes 4-5 hours of my time away every time I fly, between the extra time for arrival, searches, standing in line, ditching my water, etc.  They make me downright angry and I could care less if the entire organization disappear.  I have NEVER had a pleasant experience with TSA.

[davidsinn]

So, as long as you don't meet in an airport that has commercial service, you should be good to go according to Thousands Standing Around.

One of the airplanes in our group is based at Dallas Love Field; all those who regularly fly that aircraft have to have an airport ID badge that allows access to the SIDA (Security Identification Display Area). Essentially, the TSA is making the whole air ops area inside the airport perimeter a SIDA, if you have commercial service or airplanes that are over 12500 lbs (at KADS, that's quite common).

So Midway Composite Squadron in Chicago is completely screwed then. Maybe Eclipse can shed some light on how it works for them?

[AlphaSigOU]

So Midway Composite Squadron in Chicago is completely screwed then. Maybe Eclipse can shed some light on how it works for them?

On my end, KADS doesn't require SIDA badges - yet, considering we have one of the sixteen GA-8s with ARCHER; Because of the equipment, the aircraft must be hangared. And we hangar it with one of the big-dog FBOs on the field that regularly flies and services big bizjet iron.

I have a feeling that if you're going to be CAP aircrew and your airplane is based at an airport with commercial service or regular flights by large aircraft, you're going to hafta get a SIDA badge. And it's coming outta your pocket.

[Spike]

It was meant to be, I can't stand TSA.  My last flight about a month an a half ago included...

A 30 minute line to go through the detectors/security checkpoint.
Removal of my shoes, belt, zip up sweatshirt and hat.
The TSA guy giving me attitude for not having my deodorant in a 1Qt clear plastic baggie.
A "random" test on my bag to check for some sort of explosive residue.
Before boarding I was called for a "random" recheck.
Getting off the plane I was called for a "random" recheck.
Picking up my luggage there was one of those "TSA has opened your bag" things, with my stuff crammed back into it.

TSA takes 4-5 hours of my time away every time I fly, between the extra time for arrival, searches, standing in line, ditching my water, etc.  They make me downright angry and I could care less if the entire organization disappear.  I have NEVER had a pleasant experience with TSA.

Jimmy....you have had very bad experiences with Airport Security (TSA).  I feel for you.  However, you know the rules before standing in line.  Don't take the water bottle through, have your belt in your carry on bag and put it on once through the detectors, wear shoes you can slip on and off.  Curious too......why do you choose to wear a hat inside a building?  (I could care less if you do or don't its your life, but it doesn't present you well)

Also, for everyone's FYI, you can buy TSA luggage locks at most Walmarts or wherever you buy your luggage.  It prevents TSA from breaking your luggage lock, instead they have a key to the TSA lock.   

Airport Security is ridiculous, I agree.  Creating a Federal Agency to monitor Airport passangers was also ridiculous.  If you don't like the inconvenience, I say take AMTRAK where they don't even do a "pat-down" or a bag screen.  If we all decided to ride on trains again, I bet you would see TSA and Airlines lighten up somewhat. 

[jimmydeanno]

Jimmy....you have had very bad experiences with Airport Security (TSA).  I feel for you.  However, you know the rules before standing in line.  Don't take the water bottle through, have your belt in your carry on bag and put it on once through the detectors, wear shoes you can slip on and off.

Our lovely NE weather isn't very nice to people who wear flip flops when it's 10 degrees out.  The long lines, the water is just something to do - I just finish it and throw it away at the detector.  As for the belt, well, it's there to hold my pants up   But it really is just a matter of principle, is it necessary to treat people like a criminal at all times?  When do they start with the delousing powder?

Curious too......why do you choose to wear a hat inside a building?  (I could care less if you do or don't its your life, but it doesn't present you well)

Not a baseball hat, thin winter hat in winter weather as the security points are close to the entrances and it remains cold until you get through security.

[wuzafuzz]

BOHICA:  Bend Over Here It Comes Again.

When I worked in airport operations and security, our commercial operations took place within restricted areas.  A badge and brief background check were required for people with unescorted access to those areas.  The rest of the airport was wide open.  Honestly I'm not sure why the entire airfield needs to be turned into a restricted area.

The main purpose of the restricted area was to keep the scary folks from boarding or tampering with the commercial aircraft.  Car bombs were the other concern.  Isn't that still the goal today?  This strikes me as an unnecessary bureaucratic obstacle and fund raiser.  Calls and letters to Congress-critters seem like a good idea.  The ones that aren't the namesake for the current flu virus might react positively. 

[desertengineer1]

...and inflamatory. 

It was meant to be, I can't stand TSA.  My last flight about a month an a half ago included...

A 30 minute line to go through the detectors/security checkpoint.
Removal of my shoes, belt, zip up sweatshirt and hat.
The TSA guy giving me attitude for not having my deodorant in a 1Qt clear plastic baggie.
A "random" test on my bag to check for some sort of explosive residue.
Before boarding I was called for a "random" recheck.
Getting off the plane I was called for a "random" recheck.
Picking up my luggage there was one of those "TSA has opened your bag" thingys, with my stuff crammed back into it.

TSA takes 4-5 hours of my time away every time I fly, between the extra time for arrival, searches, standing in line, ditching my water, etc.  They make me downright angry and I could care less if the entire organization disappear.  I have NEVER had a pleasant experience with TSA.

I'm going to side with Spike on this one.  As a business traveller of about 60,000 air miles per year, I agree.

After ten signs of printed instructions on the wall and on your itenerary, repeated verbal instructions while in line, and repeated times through the line, you should know the drill.  My bag has been inspected maybe three times in the last two years and the contents remained as I folded them.

Everything in your list can be accomplished in about 30 seconds.  I do it , on average, about twice a week.  The spectral swab takes about 60 seconds to do.  An attitude to the person doing any of the above (especially the additional screening) is a major no no, and IMHO is just asking to get into trouble.

I behave myself and am through the line in about 2 minutes.  I would estimate about 95% of other travelers I see do the same.  It's not a root canal, nor is it rocket science.

If you don't have the patience and want to be a jerk about it to the people trying to do thier jobs, I personally think you deserve it.  If the guy (or lady) asks you to take the hat off and you aren't in the mood to be nice, then you can walk on down to the "I'm not in the mood" penalty box or leave.  The rest of us are trying to get to our destinations.

OK, soap box put away...

Nothing to see here....

Move along..

 

[SarDragon]

Regarding TSA locks - they would be really great if I'd get them back after the TSA opens them to inventory my luggage. So far, they've lost three of them for me. At $3.50 a pop in a package of two, I'm not really enthusiastic about supporting that industry segment.

My experiences otherwise have been improving each time I fly.

[Spike]

^ I have been through three major airports that have lines coded like they do on ski slopes.  Black Diamonds, Green Circles etc.  The more experienced travelers go to the black diamond line, while the Disney World Vacationing Family is directed to the green circle line where it takes longer to go through.  It is a real time saver for those of us that travel for work etc. 

I heard it will spreading to most International and some Regional Airports by the end of this year.