Is this reasonable?

[SJFedor]

What are you waiting for?  Escalate this up the chain.

Correction. Have your commander, or the pilot himself, escalate this up the chain. The less involvement you have, other then in a supportive role for your fellow member, the better.

[DG]

This case has already been appealed all the way up to National and a formal three member National Appeal Board.

[ascorbate]

Correction. Have your commander, or the pilot himself, escalate this up the chain. The less involvement you have, other then in a supportive role for your fellow member, the better.

The pilot involved is not one to make waves... it's not part of his personality!

At this point, I guess I'm thinking of approaching the Group A3 myself... but I also feel like I need to give some room to the applicant and the checkride pilot to see this thru to some endpoint... hopefully soon!

[DG]

Might as well turn into a "training session" and turn those lemons into lemonade. HUH?

Is that what you are doing?

In the case of a failing performance, stop the Form 5 and call it a "training session"?

[ascorbate]

This case has already been appealed all the way up to National and a formal three member National Appeal Board.

PLEASE DG... you and I are NOT talking about the same pilot/same story which I originally posted as the FIRST post in this thread on: April 17, 2009, 08:32:31 PM.

I'd like to suggest that you owe this fellow CAP pilot... in this thread... a formal apology!

[SJFedor]

Might as well turn into a "training session" and turn those lemons into lemonade. HUH?

Is that what you are doing?

In the case of a failing performance, stop the Form 5 and call it a "training session"?

If I'm not mistaken, once a checkride has commenced, it must finish. There's no stopping and calling it a training session. Once it begins, it either ends with a pass or a fail. I tell all the MP candidates I fly with this before we begin, and ask them if they're ready to begin the evaluation.

At least, that's how I give my 91's....

[SJFedor]

Correction. Have your commander, or the pilot himself, escalate this up the chain. The less involvement you have, other then in a supportive role for your fellow member, the better.

The pilot involved is not one to make waves... it's not part of his personality!

At this point, I guess I'm thinking of approaching the Group A3 myself... but I also feel like I need to give some room to the applicant and the checkride pilot to see this thru to some endpoint... hopefully soon!

That's not making waves. That's correcting a problem that may have existed for some time, and may continue to exist until something is done about it. Just like when we pre-flight aircraft, if we find something that's cause for concern, we don't just go "oh well, not flying today" and head home. We report it, because the next pilot to come out to that plane might not see what you saw, and it might end up hurting that pilot and/or crew.

[DG]

Might as well turn into a "training session" and turn those lemons into lemonade. HUH?

Is that what you are doing?

In the case of a failing performance, stop the Form 5 and call it a "training session"?

If I'm not mistaken, once a checkride has commenced, it must finish. There's no stopping and calling it a training session. Once it begins, it either ends with a pass or a fail. I tell all the MP candidates I fly with this before we begin, and ask them if they're ready to begin the evaluation.

At least, that's how I give my 91's....

Are Forms 5 and Forms 91 the same in this regard?  Or different?

And I still ask, what is heliodoc doing in this regard?

[DG]

PLEASE DG... you and I are NOT talking about the same pilot/same story which I originally posted as the FIRST post in this thread on: April 17, 2009, 08:32:31 PM.!

If that is so, different pilots / check rides, then there are 2 confusingly similar MDWG cases with the same facts as what you have posted.

[sparks]

That is correct, once a check ride begins it can be completed, failed or postponed to be completed another day (weather, airplane problems etc.). That's why it is important that both the check pilot and member getting the check ride understand when the process has begun.

[ascorbate]

If that is so, different pilots / check rides, then there are 2 confusingly similar MDWG cases with the same facts as what you have posted.

And there may well be two other MDWG cases which are completely independent of what I have presented in this thread... as this case is not even a week old yet! As noted, I am trying to solicit constructive feedback here in this forum from fellow CAP pilots (while giving the benefit of the doubt) before escalating up the food chain... as no escalation has yet taken place as far as I know!

If indeed, there are two other similar cases in MDWG... that would seem to indicate that something somewhere is not right... and that's not intended as an indictment on CAP checkride pilots. If there is a disconnect, then it needs to be remedied ASAP before cases 3, 4 and/or 5 get added to the growing heap!

[heliodoc]

Ol heliodoc

Ran it thru his CoC and also another Wing CoC on VERY short notice.

Wing DOV of heliodocs offered a few options but I was in travel mode and made a move

Travel for business that weekend as I am co owners of a building and I made it CAP trip also short my Form 5 for both G1000 and the instrument ride were done in one day

There was some consternations but the former Wing DOV was the Check Pilot was more than willing and apparently happy I showed up to fly.


I made a few other phone also that I would rather not discuss and apparently it's near dead ears in some arenas

Need more info from my perspective??...... y'all got my PM

After reading this and some folks getting in frenzy and trying to make trash when we ALL do not know all the issues....begs me to believe that...CAP's G1000 in some States is LAME for  lack of better terms.

AGAIN with all the input here , MAYBE each WIng DOV STan Eval type would like to entertain the REAL CAP FITS training program and how it to be conducted other than jut this is how I do it  There REALLY has to be plan laid out or did CAP come away from Independence, KS thinking that this  was free training to a certain few OR was there some REAL training plans and expectations laid out  for this program.

I will agree with one thing The Form 5 applicant needs to be prepared.  But I was not there at was ascorbate was talking about.  NONETHELESS a whole day?

[Crash]

Hello forum.

I have read with great interest the goings-on in regards to this pilot and his Form 5 checkride.  How do I put this gracefully?  I am well-aware of both the pilot, and the checkride instructor in this scenario.  I,too, am a pilot in this wing.  Many in this wing are familiar with both the pilot and the check-ride instructor.

Much has been eluded to or assumed about the pilot in this incident, but little has been said positively about the check-ride instructor.  I would like to clear up a few misconceptions about both.  I will attempt to do this from as much of a 3rd party, relatively disinterested party as possible - if possible...  So here goes.

First of all; the pilot.  I know the pilot rather well.  He is one of the nicest, kindest, gentlest men I know.  He is also one of the most thoroughly organized and meticulous guys I know too.  He is a former flight instructor, who no longer has the time required to "properly" instruct – as his full-time job as a director of his department of a rather large professional organization simply no longer affords him the opportunity to devote the time required to a student as he thinks would be deemed appropriate.  This gentleman not only took the appropriate time to learn in that glass 182, but then on top of that took probably close to a dozen or so  "prep" rides with a fully qualified instructor to boot, just to be as personally comfortable as possible, pending this checkride.  This is a man I would not hesitate to fly with any time, any day.  This is also a man I would not hesitate to send my wife and kids up on a flight with, any time, any day!  (And I do not say that about just anybody)  It has been mentioned that perhaps in this flight he may not have had the proper paperwork filled out, etc..  As mentioned by the good doctor here earlier in these posts, he met not once, but twice with the other pilots in his own squadron, just to go over the various tests, paperwork, preps, and other hoards of materials available to a CAP pilot getting ready for that infamous checkride.  Heck if I did not know better, I would assume he probably had them laminated too.  I also have first-hand knowledge that the checkride instructor in this event also sent him a detailed, and rather lengthy syllabus of various paperwork, syllabus', and even a detailed plan of how this pilot was to arrive, complete with a pre-determined flight plan, over-water flight, ADIZ entry procedures, etc., etc.. weeks ahead of this anticipated activity.  Being properly "prepared" was not even a question in my mind for this pilot.  I guarantee you that every "i" was dotted and every "t" crossed (and probably triple-checked at a minimum)

Enter the checkride pilot/instructor.  Kudos for a well-planned and well-written detailed plan of what to expect.  Not sure what people know about what it takes to become a checkride pilot/instructor in the CAP, let alone this Wing, but suffice it to say, the requirements are stiff and numerous, the wait list to get checked out; seemingly infinite, and we will not even go into the rote memorization of the policies and procedures and regulations that go along with the job – let alone the now added liability, FAA PLUS CAP.  All for how many more zero's on the left end of that non-existent check?  Kudos to those who have obtained this prestigious, thankless position.  One other noticeable quality of this check-instructor is that he is a walking encyclopedia of FAA and CAP regulations.  This guy eats and breathes this stuff in his sleep.  He is also rather outspoken about his beliefs and these policies and procedures (FAA and CAP alike) and is well-known throughout the Wing for his over-meticulous approach to flight instruction, and especially Form 5 checkrides!  Sort of like 'buyer beware'.  This is not one of the "good old boys" spoken about previously in this post, but one of the most knowledgeable, overtly meticulous flight instructors one will ever meet.  Lastly, this particular flight instructor is one of the most active pilots, let alone instructors in the Wing.  SAREX?  Missions?  Checkouts?  Instruction?  Checkrides?  He is a great friend to the CAP and to this Wing.

I will not go into the details of what happened on this flight, or what I perceived happened on this flight.  Needless to say, the oral went way too long, the pre-flight; although I am sure was very thorough was not instruction nor should it have been, and the lengthy flight for a "vfr-only" check ride is left to speculation.  There are two overriding thoughts here.  First, the entire checkride is geared towards "evaluating" a pilots ability to safely and competently demonstrate the ability to fly CAP aircraft to CAP standards – period.  If those standards are not strict enough for a check-pilot's personal standards, the the check-pilots needs to re-evaluate HIS personal desire to put his signature on a Form 5 and NOT cause a CAP pilot to fly to the check-pilot's personal standards.  Second, this checkride-pilot/instructor has most likely violated CAP regulations by terminating this flight without a pass/fail determination, especially because that termination was solely due to the check pilots statement that he as another scheduled "student" waiting?  <insert your own comment here>

In closing, my only other comment in this whole CAP process would be – there needs to be "a process".  It should not matter (in theory) what part of the country or what Wing I am flying in, if the CAP is going to pattern itself off its parent organization, the USAF, then standards are standards, and a Form 5 check ride should be a Form 5 check ride, whether in New York or New Mexico – all things being equal.  From standardized checklists, both inside the aircraft and out, from oral interview to actual flight, procedures all should be standardized.  This would make Form 5 prep much easier to teach and prepare for, and for the check-pilots who signature also appears on the Form 5, to know that he/she has tested to a set of CAP standards and not personal comfort or liability concerns.  Knowing that the CAP Form 5 check ride I just passed is the same one the other thousand or so pilots across the country have performed is comforting; I would know I am in good company.

In the end, this whole thing has had ripple effects across the organization and has nothing but destroyed the confidence of this pilot and killed the moral of this unit as a whole.  We have a pilot who has been unmercifully raked though an unwarranted and lengthy check ride, without a decision.  And fellow pilots / squadron members who are now beginning to wonder what they signed up for, and whether they want to be "next" in this meat-grinder!  I have heard the word "volunteer" used almost jokingly in this thread, and yes we are all "volunteers" in this thing we call CAP.  However this isn't the type of volunteering like one would at a church picnic, but far more than that:  We are "professional volunteers".  We are no different than your local volunteer fire department "volunteer" who risks his life every time the bell rings or the pager sounds at 2am for a rescue.  Our Wing A3 put it best when he compares us professional volunteer pilots to the local volunteer ambulance company.  We are not paid to perform our function every day like our full-time counterparts.  Therefore we volunteer our time and our efforts towards the goal of becoming as good as our full-time counterparts.  The goal is in the practice.  The Form 5 should be a "no-brainer" in the CAP world.  We are already FAA current and legal pilots.  Just show me you can fly this thing the way the CAP wants you to.  This is your ticket for the next year to "go out and practice" for the real thing – so that when the "real thing" arrives, and the bell goes off, you'll be ready to answer the call.  The check ride should be a means to the end and not the end of it all – as it may be in this case for many.  We need to motivate our pilots, help them in their CAP journey to become competent and practiced and proficient as Mission Pilots, Observers, Scanners, Ground Team members, or whatever role the CAP "team" needs them to fill.   Yes we need check pilots too.  Let's look at the big picture here and do the right thing.  Something has to change.  Your voice can help make that change one for the better!  We are all professionals here.  We are all one team.  I don't have a snappy closing here.  Kudos to the pilot.  Hang in there.  We're all behind you!  Kudos to the check ride pilot too.  I am sure above all, he was 'well-intentioned' in his volunteer efforts as well.  What can we all do to make this better?  I have no idea, I don't have all the answers, but I do know a change for the better can be done together.  Regardless of what has happened here, and what changes may or may not come, I am still proud to call myself one of the elite:  a member of our Civil Air Patrol.