senior member honor guard?

[SM-MADDOG]

I think that depends on what standards We are talking about. For one thing some Cadets are limited as to what they are and arent alowed to do, as many Seniors arent. Also Does the Cadet have to pass a FBI background check? I had a Cadet In my squadron that made such comments just like Your post. One day not long after He turned 18 and was about ready to leave CAP for college He seen what training I had to take and He said wow I had no idea that You guys had to do so much plus work in Your paid careers on top of it. Now as for this honor guard thing I wouldnt be interested in it.

I didnt join CAP to get In my dress uniform and march, I did that crap when I was 16, Im here to work missions for my country and state when we have a disaster or terrorism which I hope We dont. And as You speak about this not meeting the standard I was in MC-JROTC and 2 months later We had people who still wouldnt listen, would march correctly and just a mile of other problems. I was a Police Explorer back then I remember some basic marching drills We did those same ones and got them down in 2 hrs, yet Cadets in JROTC couldnt do it together in 2 months. Im sorry but is this the standard You are speaking of?

Dont get Me wrong the Cadet program is great I think its a great thing for Cadets to be involved in and they are also serving just as the Senior Member Officers are, but I think We as in general should refrain from saying that Cadets are held to higher standards than Seniors. For one if You dont have to pass a FBI background check that is a big standard, as I understand Cadets dont have to go through that check. Also Understand Cadets DO NOT RUN CAP. Seniors do. This does not make Seniors any better than cadets or vice versa, thats how I think anyways, but the evidence of what Seniors do and What things they do in CAP and what Senior Officers run in CAP is evidenced from National HQ to every region, wing and squadron in this country. SO I would re think Your comments about our standards, also remember back in WWII the standards the Senior Members had in defeating Hitler in his attacks against us in the united states. If You look at that Senior Members standards are very high and always have been. Both Seniors and Cadets have high standards. But only one commands, runs, and supervises things and im sorry its not cadets.

Just not a good idea. Most seniors wouldn't meet the requirements. That's one thing i've never liked about CAP. Cadets are held to a higher standard then it's Senior Members.

[IceNine]

The standards we are talking about are the general rule that every cadet will have a uniform in better condition that some of the very best seniors.

That cadets are proficient at marching and have the ability to discern between attention and at ease, does this mean that every cadet does, and every senior doesn't. Nope.  But it does mean that about 20% of seniors know the difference and follow the rules where every cadet practices those differences at nearly every activity they attend.

The simple desire to carry the flags because ascots and silver ropes are super 1337.

One of the main reasons for the FBI background check is to PROTECT OUR CADETS.  And they aren't required to pass that check because they are required to be under the supervision of someone has.

And WWII was a LONG time ago and has absolutely no bearing on the standards we are held at today.

So in terms of relativity to an HONORGUARD absolutely cadets are held to a higher standard

[SM-MADDOG]

I agree, if cadets or seniors wanted to do Honor Guard then they should be able to do it. But as in My other post to people Who said cadets are held to higher standards than Senior Members I disagree and the evidence to prove why I disagree big time is everywhere in CAP. Both Cadets and Seniors are important, but a Cadet that thinks such things like this must really wake and up look around and research it and find out what seniors do and have done in the past, and standards We Seniors are held to. Also I've seen and heard where Cadets have got into arguements with other cadets two young cadets even got into a small (pushing) fight, I can tell You if that happended to Me as a Senior I would have been punished way worse than the two cadets were. And who knows probably terminated. I know as a police explorer when I was 16 to 21 in the pd's explorer unit that police dept was very strict and something like that would have got us terminated.

however the two young cadets in CAP were given a small punishment of not being allowed to test for promotion. I think that was the right thing to do for that incident the commander worked it out the correct way, however those are lower standards than what I have as a Senior Member Officer and lower standards then when I was a police explorer.

If a SM color guard or honor guard wants to exist...I say so be it.  Don't limit CAP Officers to being mere CAP Officers.  If there is an interest, let it come to be.

ditto!

[IceNine]

You are looking at the WRONG standards.  We are talking about appearance, composure, C&C's, D&C, desire, etc.

Look at this in a relative manner and this will be a much more productive conversation.

RELATIVE TO HONORGUARD... what the police explorers is going to do to me if I push you has nothing to do with what makes a good guardsman

[SM-MADDOG]

I see what You are talking about marching standards, but as I stated been there done that and still do it today. Well I disagree to a certain point if a cadet or senior continued in such a manner I wouldnt want them being a guardsman or anything else. Thats what standards We had as I said they treated it very strict, very strict rules/regulations as we were going on road patrol with sworn officers responding to any emergencies that came up, hince life and death. I understand about the uniform standards and what not, however I've seen cadets not be in proper uniform, wear the uniform incorrectly and what not, so it can go both ways I think. But I think anyone that wants to be on an honor guard wether cadet or senior should be able to do it. I was on the honor guard a week ago Members funeral.

As with the other persons comment about WWII was a long time ago. Yeah and? We still have standards from then. But I wasnt speaking of one standard of uniforms, I was speaking overal standards. Thats all I was saying dont take that as Im trying to say that cadets or seniors are better than the other, We need both and always have since CAP started Before WWII.

[O-Rex]

Leave this one to the cadets: there's nothing sharper or more moving than a well turned out freshly-scrubbed teenager doing the patriotic thing (Mom's and Dads love it, and it brings a tear to 'me eye..)

Sure, some Seniors can probably pull it off, but for the most part, let's be realistic: what would you rather see, some diligent steely-eyed youths, or a bunch of Keystone cops, or better-yet, the rag-tag "volunteer fire department" from 'Green Acres' or the 'Andy Griffith Show??'

Let the Seniors do what they do best: fly planes, drink coffee and engage in hangar-talk.

[Eclipse]

Sure, some Seniors can probably pull it off, but for the most part, let's be realistic: what would you rather see, some diligent steely-eyed youths, or a bunch of Keystone cops, or better-yet, the rag-tag "volunteer fire department" from 'Green Acres' or the 'Andy Griffith Show??'

Let the Seniors do what they do best: fly planes, drink coffee and engage in hangar-talk.

Nice - the two options you provide are not the only ones available for seniors, and if we continue to accept / propagate the stereotype nothing will ever change.

[Chappie]

When you mention Senior Honor Guard or Drill Team.... I think of these guys 

http://jp.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=1807863

                    :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[SarDragon]

O-rex, I also find your post offensive. Assigning such a general stereotype to senior members denigrates all the members who do not fit that narrow view. There are many out there who are not fat or do not fly, who are physically fit and know drill and ceremonies past reading it in a book, and are every bit as well turned out as the cadets you praise.

Remember, there a lot of former cadets now in the SM ranks. Have they all of a sudden lost their skills and experience?

[lordmonar]

Is there any such a thing?  Are there any regs against it?  All of the ones I know are cadets but then again I only know of a couple.

Are we talking "honor guard" or "color guard" because in CAP they are two seperate things.

Either way....."color guards" are supposed to be enlisted only.  So if you are looking for a regulation you would have to look in the USAF drill manual and it states NCO/airman.

Having said that.....I see no real problem with it....so long as you are not taking something away from the cadets.  I can think of seveal reasons why you would do this.....an all SM event, an event that was too far away or too the cadets out of school.....or simply a small squadron with not enough cadets or no cadets (senior squadron or lopsided composite squadron).

In those events I see no problem with it....if we make sure everyone is high speed and squared away as far as D&C and Unforms/grooming/weight go.

[tjaxe]

I am totally for such a thing and as one of the seniors that consider myself to do more than gossip and drink coffee -- and I CERTAINLY don't fly -- I would LOVE to be part of something like this.  Of course I wouldn't want to take anything away from cadets, but I don't understand how being inclusive -- ie including seniors in something -- excludes others.  It doesn't.  That's the point -- it's INCLUSIVE of those who fit the bill.  If seniors don't fit the correct bearing then they don't participate.

But really, like most things we talk about here -- does anything come of it?  Please don't flame me -- what I mean is, we talk about changes to  uniforms, changes to where we should report in the CAP / AF line, and what kind of things seniors should be allowed to do.  It's all great -- but are we just talking about it and blowing off steam or does our hashing out of stuff here affect outcomes in any way, shape, or form.  I'm not trying to be defeatist at all -- just trying to understand if, for example, I get all excited about a possible senior honor/color guard I'm just getting my hopes up for nothing because the only place it's gonna / can be discussed is here.

:angel:

[O-Rex]

Sure, some Seniors can probably pull it off, but for the most part, let's be realistic: what would you rather see, some diligent steely-eyed youths, or a bunch of Keystone cops, or better-yet, the rag-tag "volunteer fire department" from 'Green Acres' or the 'Andy Griffith Show??'

Let the Seniors do what they do best: fly planes, drink coffee and engage in hangar-talk.

Nice - the two options you provide are not the only ones available for seniors, and if we continue to accept / propagate the stereotype nothing will ever change.

Find me an over-40 y/o razor-sharp recruiting poster colorguard and they'll have my everlasting admiration and undying support: heck, I'll even donate organs in their name.  I'm just saying that it would be the exception rather than the rule.

I'm not accepting nor propagating slovenly seniors, I just call 'em like I see 'em.

[tjaxe]

O-Rex:
I think you're being too hard on seniors in general.  Take a stroll down the "Show Yourself" posts.  While I don't know if these seniors are over 40 (not sure why you came up with that age) or if they care about being on a senior honor guard or not, I do believe some of the pictures I've seen of Stonewall, Pylon, jimmydeanno, Eclipse, and Fedor, for example, all look "razor-sharp" to me. 

I'd be proud to see seniors like that in an guard detail! 

[SM-MADDOG]

I think what You are saying is that Seniors are limited to only flying planes. First of all I think We need to remember in CAP its Seniors, then Cadets. As I stated before I have respect for everyone wether Cadet or Not. I also dont go around Cadets or Seniors saying what they can do and We cant do. I could pile up a list for both. And some of You said a 40 yr old doing honor guard I know a friend that is over 50 years old and is on the Police Honor Guard and they work several parades a year and funerals and what not. Just because hes over 50 dont mean a thing. Hes in better shape than me and alot of other cadets He would probably out do most of us. Age dont mean anything. I suggest some of You stop with this bad saying of one or the other. This is something I dont like about CAP is this very thing. When I was a police explorer I didnt see much of other police officers or police explorers doing this. I have no desire to be on an honor guard, I however will do such things for a funeral.

I remember that one military cadence, where the young recruits are saying hay old lady where u headin to, she replies subba school, tghey reply hey old lady u should leave that to the young and bold cant remember some of the other words, she replies Im an instructor at scubba school then she laughs, I think thats good some good advice in it, dont try to judge people by the book because You are going to be wrong, and they just might be your DI's to lol.

Leave this one to the cadets: there's nothing sharper or more moving than a well turned out freshly-scrubbed teenager doing the patriotic thing (Mom's and Dads love it, and it brings a tear to 'me eye..)

Sure, some Seniors can probably pull it off, but for the most part, let's be realistic: what would you rather see, some diligent steely-eyed youths, or a bunch of Keystone cops, or better-yet, the rag-tag "volunteer fire department" from 'Green Acres' or the 'Andy Griffith Show??'

Let the Seniors do what they do best: fly planes, drink coffee and engage in hangar-talk.

[AlphaSigOU]

O-Rex:
I think you're being too hard on seniors in general.  Take a stroll down the "Show Yourself" posts.  While I don't know if these seniors are over 40 (not sure why you came up with that age) or if they care about being on a senior honor guard or not, I do believe some of the pictures I've seen of Stonewall, Pylon, jimmydeanno, Eclipse, and Fedor, for example, all look "razor-sharp" to me. 

I'd be proud to see seniors like that in an guard detail! 

Well said, Tracey!

BTW I'm 44 and wouldn't have any trouble performing on a senior member honor guard. Guess it's the former cadink in me...

[O-Rex]

Okay, Senior-bashing aside (gosh, we are a sensitive bunch  ) maybe it's the ex-mil in me, but I would really find it odd to have a color guard consisting of lieutenants, captains and majors-its just not done (Funeral-burial Pallbearers/body escorts are a different matter.)  The care and feeding and trooping of the unit colors has ALWAYS been 'NCO-business' (or cadets at mil schools.)  Point is, commissioned officers do not carry flags or rifles during ceremonies.  Nor are they part of the body of a formation-they are in front of it, in charge.  A great example is USMC evening parade at '8th and I' (if you are ever in DC on a summer Friday afternoon, I highly recommend it, otherwise you can youtube it.)

Given our hybrid sort-of-military/civilian-volunteer culture, one outside the box solution is that the participating seniors do so without rank.  (I remember reading about a Unknown Soldier-like memorial at MACV Vietnam where the honor guards on duty would be without rank insignia so as not to outrank the deceased-I thought that was pretty cool.)

Also, when I think of honor-guard, I think of rifles (it puts the "guard" in honor guard) the only CAP personnel authorized to "bear arms" is the colorguard.

tjaxe et al.- I'm not trying to blow smoke up your '4th point of contact,' but I don't think our CAPTALK regulars are representative of the folks we see "in the field" i.e., If you are passionate enough about what you do to blog here, chances are there are some mirror-finish boots in the closet, and an appointment for a high & tight pending with your barber.  Yes, you guys are a sharp bunch, BUT all it takes is one goofball rag-bag to undo it all, and somehow they always manage to get in the mix, despite our collective best efforts.  I can't count how many times we had things by-the-numbers, only to find our resident "Joey bag-o-donuts" waddling in with some gross uni-violation or in the wrong uniform altogether.  Or worse yet, he came in and started rubbing elbows with the guests and VIP's before we even realized he was there. 

[SM-MADDOG]

Great post orex, best one. I agree big time. I really dont see a big need for a senior honor guard unless CAP decides it wants one. Im game for anything anyone wants to do as long as its legal and moral of course. But I dont want to be on the honor guard speaking for my self. I dont know about other seniors.

That is cool that they did not wear rank to honor him, I like hearing things like that.

If I did get on any one I don't mean to. Im very nice and even with My cadets I havent got on them when I should. Sometimes very very minor stuff kinda let it go. Im not the guy that always wants to have people introuble. Like they slipped with a minor cuff word something like that. Also I dont feel mad about some saying improper things of seniors, I just think of it as a respect thing, as i respect both sides. Also I did say some stuff that could have been disrespect in my replies and that was wrong. We are all brothers & sisters in unifom and thats they way I feel on it. So if I did make say something that hurt some feelings or what not I didn't mean to and am sorry. Everyone Stay Safe

Okay, Senior-bashing aside (gosh, we are a sensitive bunch  ) maybe it's the ex-mil in me, but I would really find it odd to have a color guard consisting of lieutenants, captains and majors-its just not done (Funeral-burial Pallbearers/body escorts are a different matter.)  The care and feeding and trooping of the unit colors has ALWAYS been 'NCO-business' (or cadets at mil schools.)  Point is, commissioned officers do not carry flags or rifles during ceremonies.  Nor are they part of the body of a formation-they are in front of it, in charge.  A great example is USMC evening parade at '8th and I' (if you are ever in DC on a summer Friday afternoon, I highly recommend it, otherwise you can youtube it.)

Given our hybrid sort-of-military/civilian-volunteer culture, one outside the box solution is that the participating seniors do so without rank.  (I remember reading about a Unknown Soldier-like memorial at MACV Vietnam where the honor guards on duty would be without rank insignia so as not to outrank the deceased-I thought that was pretty cool.)

Also, when I think of honor-guard, I think of rifles (it puts the "guard" in honor guard) the only CAP personnel authorized to "bear arms" is the colorguard.

tjaxe et al.- I'm not trying to blow smoke up your '4th point of contact,' but I don't think our CAPTALK regulars are representative of the folks we see "in the field" i.e., If you are passionate enough about what you do to blog here, chances are there are some mirror-finish boots in the closet, and an appointment for a high & tight pending with your barber.  Yes, you guys are a sharp bunch, BUT all it takes is one goofball rag-bag to undo it all, and somehow they always manage to get in the mix, despite our collective best efforts.  I can't count how many times we had things by-the-numbers, only to find our resident "Joey bag-o-donuts" waddling in with some gross uni-violation or in the wrong uniform altogether.  Or worse yet, he came in and started rubbing elbows with the guests and VIP's before we even realized he was there. 

[Eclipse]

Okay, Senior-bashing aside (gosh, we are a sensitive bunch  ) maybe it's the ex-mil in me, but I would really find it odd to have a color guard consisting of lieutenants, captains and majors-its just not done (Funeral-burial Pallbearers/body escorts are a different matter.)  The care and feeding and trooping of the unit colors has ALWAYS been 'NCO-business' (or cadets at mil schools.)  Point is, commissioned officers do not carry flags or rifles during ceremonies.  Nor are they part of the body of a formation-they are in front of it, in charge.  A great example is USMC evening parade at '8th and I' (if you are ever in DC on a summer Friday afternoon, I highly recommend it, otherwise you can youtube it.)

In my AOR funeral duty was all we were discussing - someone to stand post during the wake or services and carry the casket (assuming the family was even interested.  Otherwise I agree on the colors, rifles, etc.

tjaxe et al.- I'm not trying to blow smoke up your '4th point of contact,' but I don't think our CAPTALK regulars are representative of the folks we see "in the field" i.e., If you are passionate enough about what you do to blog here, chances are there are some mirror-finish boots in the closet, and an appointment for a high & tight pending with your barber.  Yes, you guys are a sharp bunch, BUT all it takes is one goofball rag-bag to undo it all, and somehow they always manage to get in the mix, despite our collective best efforts.  I can't count how many times we had things by-the-numbers, only to find our resident "Joey bag-o-donuts" waddling in with some gross uni-violation or in the wrong uniform altogether.  Or worse yet, he came in and started rubbing elbows with the guests and VIP's before we even realized he was there. 

Sadly, this is spot-on as well.

[tjaxe]

tjaxe et al.- I'm not trying to blow smoke up your '4th point of contact,' but I don't think our CAPTALK regulars are representative of the folks we see "in the field" i.e., If you are passionate enough about what you do to blog here, chances are there are some mirror-finish boots in the closet, and an appointment for a high & tight pending with your barber.  Yes, you guys are a sharp bunch, BUT all it takes is one goofball rag-bag to undo it all, and somehow they always manage to get in the mix, despite our collective best efforts.  I can't count how many times we had things by-the-numbers, only to find our resident "Joey bag-o-donuts" waddling in with some gross uni-violation or in the wrong uniform altogether.  Or worse yet, he came in and started rubbing elbows with the guests and VIP's before we even realized he was there. 

I definitely see your point in here and I'm not arguing that at all.  I also like the idea of no rank (maybe those involved could shed theirs??).  In any case. you're right -- there always seems to be some ding-dong around messing it up.  <wishful thinking>But wouldn't it be cool if that weren't the case? </wishful thinking>

BTW -- I'd look pretty funny with a "high and tight" being of the "other" gender but I do polish my boots for hours!   

[Short Field]

Must really grip some folks to see the old men in the VFW color guard.....

http://www.westfargovfw.com/colorgaurd/index.html