CAP has a Presidential Unit Citation?

[cap235629]

Another thing that would have to be addressed would be the corporate uniforms. Military awards and decs aren't authorized on the CSU or Aviator combinations, which means that those members opting to wear that uniform wouldn't be permitted to wear a legitimately earned award. If it was permitted, then it would be fine. I don't have a problem with it, but I don't think the Air Force would approve. And yes, they would have to allow wear of their dec on an other that Air Force variant uniform, even if they don't control the actual uniform itself.

Incorrect.  If a CAP member is a veteran he/she CAN wear their military awards IF THE SERVICE THAT AWARDED THEM ALLOWS FOR WEARING THE AWARDS ON CIVILIAN CLOTHING

below is the response I received to an email sent to Ms. Parker on this exact topic:

Flag this message
RE: question
Friday, April 25, 2008 9:49 AM
From:
"Parker, Susie" <SPARKER@capnhq.gov>
Add sender to Contacts
To:
"Bill Hobbs" <cap235629@yahoo.com>
You are correct--CAP members may wear their military ribbons on the new Corporate Uniform if the branch of service authorizes them on civilian clothing.  Medals are not authorized on this uniform but you may wear your Army ribbons with your CAP ribbons on the new Corporate service coat and the aviator shirt worn with the blue slacks and blue epaulets.

If I can answer any other questions for you please let me know.

SUSAN P. PARKER
National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6332
Voice:  877-227-9142, extension 212
Fax:  334-953-4262


From: Bill Hobbs [mailto:cap235629@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:09 PM
To: Parker, Susie
Subject: question

I have a question about the CAP distinctive uniforms

This question is the result of conversation between myself and other members based upon a Wiki article on CAP.

here is the section of the article that prompted this question:

"In March 2006, optional new "corporate" uniforms were introduced for senior members with white shirts, Air Force blue trousers and Air Force officer epaulettes without the "CAP" titling. Notably, this uniform has a nameplate that only says "Civil Air Patrol" with the member's last name; there is no mention of "United States Air Force Auxiliary." At the 2006 National Executive Committee meeting, a matching double-breasted blue service coat was approved. Metal rank insignia and "CAP" collar insignia are worn on this, along with the metal nameplate and CAP buttons, but only CAP ribbons and devices are permitted; prior-service military ribbons and devices are not be authorized for wear on this uniform (unless authorized to be worn on civilian clothing by the awarding authority). The service and flight caps will continue to be worn with CAP-distinctive variations"  (emphasis mine to clarify)

Is this true?  I cannot find this notation anywhere else but everything else in the article was dead on.  If this is true then I offer the following:

Army Regulation 670-1 Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms Section 30-6 states the following:

30–6. Wear of medals on civilian clothes
Retired personnel and former members of the Army (as described above) may wear all categories of medals described in this regulation on appropriate civilian clothing. This includes clothes designed for veteran and patriotic organizations on Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature. Personnel may wear either full-size or miniature medals. Personnel who wear medals on civilian clothes should place the medals on the clothing in approximately the same location and in the same manner as for the Army uniform, so they look similar to medals worn on the Army uniform. (as described above in the above quote refers to former Army members who are veterans of wartime service only, it does not apply to all veterans)

If the article is correct then it would appear that I can wear my Army decorations on the aviator shirt and corporate dress uniform jacket at appropriate functions as I am a veteran with wartime service.  Please advise me if this is the case.

Thank You


Bill Hobbs
2LT, CAP
83rd Composite Squadron
Civil Air Patrol
Fort Smith, Arkansas

[MIKE]

 

[Timbo]

^^ So emails from Employees are now as good as ICL's??

I am confused, I read regs and change letters updating regs, but now I must also scan for emails sent to others on uniform issues. 

Until I see a new ICL or an update to 39-1 saying "wear your dec's on the CSU" I will go by the most current ICL. 

[cap235629]

This information was also in a powerpoint presentation that NHQ showed at one of the board meetings.  It also appears somewhere in the minutes of the meeting that authorized the CSU as well I believe.

As far as an email from Ms. Parker, I have been told that the buck stops with her regarding uniform interpretations.  I have been repeatedly referred to her any time I have asked for clarification through the chain of command or elsewhere.  This avoids the multiple interpretations that one gets from all of our beloved barracks lawyers.

[bosshawk]

Interesting email from Suzie Parker.  Looks like I will have to update my ribbon rack with the four new CAP ribbons and one military ribbon that I have added in recent months.  Of course, I now have to deal with Vanguard to get ribbons and a new mounting rack.  Now, I guess that I will have to wear my aviator shirt once in awhile.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Another thing that would have to be addressed would be the corporate uniforms. Military awards and decs aren't authorized on the CSU or Aviator combinations, which means that those members opting to wear that uniform wouldn't be permitted to wear a legitimately earned award. If it was permitted, then it would be fine. I don't have a problem with it, but I don't think the Air Force would approve. And yes, they would have to allow wear of their dec on an other that Air Force variant uniform, even if they don't control the actual uniform itself.

Incorrect.  If a CAP member is a veteran he/she CAN wear their military awards IF THE SERVICE THAT AWARDED THEM ALLOWS FOR WEARING THE AWARDS ON CIVILIAN CLOTHING

below is the response I received to an email sent to Ms. Parker on this exact topic:

Flag this message
RE: question
Friday, April 25, 2008 9:49 AM
From:
"Parker, Susie" <SPARKER@capnhq.gov>
Add sender to Contacts
To:
"Bill Hobbs" <cap235629@yahoo.com>
You are correct--CAP members may wear their military ribbons on the new Corporate Uniform if the branch of service authorizes them on civilian clothing.  Medals are not authorized on this uniform but you may wear your Army ribbons with your CAP ribbons on the new Corporate service coat and the aviator shirt worn with the blue slacks and blue epaulets.

If I can answer any other questions for you please let me know.

SUSAN P. PARKER
National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6332
Voice:  877-227-9142, extension 212
Fax:  334-953-4262


From: Bill Hobbs [mailto:cap235629@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:09 PM
To: Parker, Susie
Subject: question

I have a question about the CAP distinctive uniforms

This question is the result of conversation between myself and other members based upon a Wiki article on CAP.

here is the section of the article that prompted this question:

"In March 2006, optional new "corporate" uniforms were introduced for senior members with white shirts, Air Force blue trousers and Air Force officer epaulettes without the "CAP" titling. Notably, this uniform has a nameplate that only says "Civil Air Patrol" with the member's last name; there is no mention of "United States Air Force Auxiliary." At the 2006 National Executive Committee meeting, a matching double-breasted blue service coat was approved. Metal rank insignia and "CAP" collar insignia are worn on this, along with the metal nameplate and CAP buttons, but only CAP ribbons and devices are permitted; prior-service military ribbons and devices are not be authorized for wear on this uniform (unless authorized to be worn on civilian clothing by the awarding authority). The service and flight caps will continue to be worn with CAP-distinctive variations"  (emphasis mine to clarify)

Is this true?  I cannot find this notation anywhere else but everything else in the article was dead on.  If this is true then I offer the following:

Army Regulation 670-1 Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms Section 30-6 states the following:

30–6. Wear of medals on civilian clothes
Retired personnel and former members of the Army (as described above) may wear all categories of medals described in this regulation on appropriate civilian clothing. This includes clothes designed for veteran and patriotic organizations on Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature. Personnel may wear either full-size or miniature medals. Personnel who wear medals on civilian clothes should place the medals on the clothing in approximately the same location and in the same manner as for the Army uniform, so they look similar to medals worn on the Army uniform. (as described above in the above quote refers to former Army members who are veterans of wartime service only, it does not apply to all veterans)

If the article is correct then it would appear that I can wear my Army decorations on the aviator shirt and corporate dress uniform jacket at appropriate functions as I am a veteran with wartime service.  Please advise me if this is the case.

Thank You


Bill Hobbs
2LT, CAP
83rd Composite Squadron
Civil Air Patrol
Fort Smith, Arkansas

Bill:

Medals... not ribbons.  "Full size and miniature medals."  But... "All categories of medals" may have some meaning.  If Suzy says the ribbons are good, OK, wear 'em.

Besides, I'm overweight and I wear the TPU.  My attitude is that my ribbons are sort of like my gray hairs...  I earned them, I wear them!

[RiverAux]

Kach read it right -- MEDALS, not ribbons.   Straying a bit though....

[Hawk200]

Kach read it right -- MEDALS, not ribbons.   Straying a bit though....

Gonna stray a bit more, but promise I'll get closer on track.

One, I stated that awards and decs aren't authorized on the CSU and Aviator combo's. On the CSU, apparently Suzie Parker feels that is acceptable to wear the ribbon equivalents on the CSU. If you feel that is acceptable, then go ahead. But it might be safe to carry a copy of that email, because otherwise, it's hearsay.

Two, on the Aviator (and I'm referencing the white shirt with gray slacks) combo, military awards are not authorized. Unless someone has an ICL that indicates it is, it's not. Only CAP ribbons and badges are permitted on that uniform. Suzie Parker's response is that you may only wear them on the "Corporate Service Uniform" or the "Aviator shirt with blue slacks and blue epaulets" (often referred to as CSU lite).

Three, a Presidential Unit Citation is not a medal, and wouldn't be authorized on either uniform at present. For those members of the time period cited, it may be possible to get Air Force approval. I wouldn't really have a problem with it, if properly approved.

[Timbo]

^ Hawk, what you just posted makes NO SENSE!  We can wear military ribbons/dec's on a uniform that closely resembles the AF uniform, but we can't wear them on a uniform that is SO very distinctive from the AF uniform (that seems asinine) 

UNTIL (I say again) Until, there is an ICL changing the guidance on the wear of the military bling on the CSU away from what the original ICL stated (NO military bling) then you CAN NOT wear them.  Emails are not policy changes.  Phone Calls are not policy changes.  Power Point Presentations are not Policy Changes.  Third party conversations are not Policy Changes.  Policy Changes come from our CAP leadership, or a delegated employee, countersigned by one of our National Officers. 

If one of my SQD members tried to say "oh I got an email backing up my wearing of this grey beret from Suzie Parker" I would first laugh and then ask him or her to take it off and wait until we get a formal change letter, or an updated 39-1.

Please, folks......most of you have careers where you could find yourself in deep water if you tried to pass this BS off at work.  (i.e. "Ted in Marketing said that Accounting told his friend Bob in Sales that we can use the corporate card for lunch every other Tuesday, and the company would cover the cost)

[Hawk200]

^ Hawk, what you just posted makes NO SENSE!  We can wear military ribbons/dec's on a uniform that closely resembles the AF uniform, but we can't wear them on a uniform that is SO very distinctive from the AF uniform (that seems asinine) 

I'm not sure what doesn't make sense.

1. Suzie Parker says wear your ribbons on a CSU since the Army allows medals on civilian clothing (which seems a bit roundabout). Fine. Just keep a copy of the email in case someone challenges you on it.

2. On the white shirt/gray slacks combo, military decs aren't authorized. Only the CSU. Ms. Parker stated specifically the CSU, no other variation.

3. Presidential Unit Citation is not a medal, and IAW Army standards would not be authorized on civilian clothes.

The blue uniform is an Air Force uniform, even if it's called "Air Force style". It has distinctly identifying insignia for CAP, but it's still a military uniform. Thus, military decs are permitted on it.

The CSU and Aviator combos are not military, never have been, and never will be no matter how much anyone wants them to be. In the eyes of the military branches, they are civilian clothing items. Doesn't matter if they look military or not.

I pretty much agree with the way you would deal with it. In general, it can be difficult to tell people to remove something when they can always tell the higher ups that "it's approved by National, here's my paperwork". It tends to be a constant battle.

All in all, if something is authorized, it should be in a reg or supplement to the pub. I don't care for ICL's personally. Too many to keep track of. And I really don't care for things being "approved" by the Personnel section that didn't get dealt with directly by the Board or the membership. Seems a little too "backdoor" to me.

[cap235629]

One, I stated that awards and decs aren't authorized on the CSU and Aviator combo's. On the CSU, apparently Suzie Parker feels that is acceptable to wear the ribbon equivalents on the CSU. If you feel that is acceptable, then go ahead. But it might be safe to carry a copy of that email, because otherwise, it's hearsay.

Two, on the Aviator (and I'm referencing the white shirt with gray slacks) combo, military awards are not authorized. Unless someone has an ICL that indicates it is, it's not. Only CAP ribbons and badges are permitted on that uniform. Suzie Parker's response is that you may only wear them on the "Corporate Service Uniform" or the "Aviator shirt with blue slacks and blue epaulets" (often referred to as CSU lite).

Well I went back and researched it a bit here is a quote from the ICL dated 01/25/08 regarding the CSU:

d. Corporate Service Coat. Effective 29 June 2006, a Corporate Service Coat
was approved. This double-breasted coat will be worn by senior member officers with
metal grade insignia, the silver nametag and CAP ribbons, badges and devices as
currently authorized on the Air Force Service Coat. General officers wear one inch
stars centered on the epaulet. All other CAP officers wear their grade insignia 5/8 inch
from the end of the epaulet. This coat will have mirror-finished "Civil Air Patrol" buttons
and be worn with the standard "CAP" lapel insignia. The "CAP" device is worn resting,
on but not over the seam, 1/4 inch above the bottom edge of the collar. General officers
will wear 1 1/2 inch gray braid on the sleeve. All other senior member officers will wear
1/2 inch gray braid. Braid will be worn 3 inches from the bottom of sleeve. The CAP
service cap with gray braid on the visor is authorized for male, senior member officers.
Female senior member officers may wear the currently authorized service cap. Cadets
over 18 wearing this coat will wear the "CAP" lapel device, blue nametag and grade
insignia as currently authorized on the Air Force Service Coat. This coat may also be worn with a black bow tie on formal occasions when the mess dress would be worn.

As indicated in bold it says as authorized on the AF style uniforms.  This might be where all of this started as military awards are allowed on AF style uniforms.  I know it says CAP awards but the as authorized on AF style uniforms allows way too much room for interpretation at a local level which is why a call to NHQ for clarification was in order. 

I suppose if MG Courter had answered the phone we could dismiss Ms. Parkers response, but until then we must rely on the duly authorized representative of the National Commander to answer our questions and provide clarification.

[Timbo]

^ Wow.  Nice interpretation, but that would not hold up in mickey mouse court. 

It says CAP Ribbons, badges......   By placing the word "CAP" in front of the word "Ribbons, and a "," separating the next item in the description sentence, it means that "CAP" would be placed in front of the words "Badges" and "Devices" as well, but for grammatical shortening of the sentence you do not need to place the "CAP" in front of each word for the reader to understand that they are all "CAP" items.

   

[Eclipse]

^^ So emails from Employees are now as good as ICL's??

Timbo, I have to go with you on this one.

I have a lot of respect for Suzy's knowledge and contacts, but all too often she is put in the position of interpreting ambiguous regulations or worse, her answers are considered policy, even when initiated from her desk.

She's not in the chain, nor does she have the authority to interpret regulations, especially where that interpretation directly conflicts with whatever the written comment is, reg, ICL, or other, and there is the occasion when she is actually wrong, and that just makes things worse.

We need to stop leaning on her so much to settle arguments and work the chain properly.

[Timbo]

We need to stop leaning on her so much to settle arguments and work the chain properly.

I agree.  (I also have seen wrong information presented on the Knowledgeable before)  The chain should be were we go.  Asking the SQD Commander to clear something up, means you will get an answere and if he or she does not know, then they will ask the next level.  It is also good to back ansewers up with a definite "go here for what I am telling you" response.  Nothing better then getting the answer and knowing where to go for it by yourself in the future.

Nothing against Ms. Parker, she does a terrific job (especially with all of us bugging her).  However, policy and regulation issues do need that hard piece of paper fact that can be passed around.  (Power Point, just does not cut it) 

[MIKE]

...And another one gone.