CAP has a Presidential Unit Citation?

[RiverAux]

According to the Sept 21, 2001 issue of the Prop and Triangle (an irregular newsletter that used to be put out by the National Historaian) CAP has earned a Distinguished Unit/Presidential Unit Citation (AF) and an AF Outstanding Unit Award with Combat V service. 

Here is the link to the story (only available on the internet wayback site as far as I can tell: http://web.archive.org/web/20010926162242/http://history.nhq.cap.gov/

The same newsletter also says that we have a campaign streamer for the American Campaign with Bronze Star for antisubmarine work. 

Now, I wouldn't argue that CAP earned the campaign streamer, though I would be interested to know if we were officially given one. 

But, I am quite suspicious of the awards.  I assume that somewhere at National there is a national CAP flag and I wondered if any of the folks that have been there have actually seen the streamer or seen documents for the awards?  I also wonder what those awards are supposedly for. 

[Flying Pig]

I find it odd that non-combatant volunteer received a "V"

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I guess the question should be: Where's the paperwork?

And, for the bling hounds: Which, if any, of the awards, may be worn on the uniform?

The combat device is probably because, oh, maybe, of the wartime service? Bombs strapped to "those [darn]ed little yellow planes," possibly?

[dhon27]

Could the awards referenced in the lineage been issued to CAP-USAF and not CAP itself?

[Flying Pig]

OK....raise your hands.....who has already purchased their ribbons??

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Could the awards referenced in the lineage been issued to CAP-USAF and not CAP itself?

Did CAP-USAF exist in World War II? Nope.

And does the policy letter apply, you know, the one that strikes down the wear of citations by people who weren't in the unit when the citation was issued? Or does the Air Force's policy apply?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[Timbo]

The AF can award CAP members awards.  It just has not been done in the past 40 years. 

[dhon27]

Could the awards referenced in the lineage been issued to CAP-USAF and not CAP itself?

Did CAP-USAF exist in World War II? Nope.

Well, first, I don't think the lineage states the date of the awards.  Second, the lineage identifies the awards as "Distinguished/Presidential Unit Citation (AF), AF Outstanding Unit Award with Combat "V" Service"  Since the U.S. Air Force also didn't exist during WWII, it is possible that the awards were granted after WWII (more accurately after USAF was created), and, thus, could have been awarded to CAP-USAF.

[dhon27]

Actually, this might be the answer: the document linked below (CAP Knowledgebase) has a different version of the CAP lineage, which says "Distinguished/Presidential Unit Citation (AF), AF Outstanding Unit Award with Combat "V" Service. (CAP-USAF)"

Link

[RiverAux]

Well, that appears to be a different version of the same document.  Hard to tell which is the current, but probably the one in the knowledgebase.  Though it doesn't really answer anything. 

But, it just makes it worse.  For one, if these awards are for CAP-USAF, then they shouldn't be listed on a sheet supposedly documenting CAP's lineage and honors.  And two, if they actually are for CAP-USAF, I think it is even less likely that they would have earned them as a unit than would CAP.  Unless, the unit to which CAP-USAF belongs at some point earned them (or maybe the whole AF got it at once like the Coast Guard did after Katrina). 

[Timbo]

^ Don't forget for a very long time, the AF ran the daily operations of CAP as a whole.  So, it is assumable that the AF awarded those AF Officers the award, and CAP was their "Unit". 

[Duke Dillio]

The AF can award CAP members awards.  It just has not been done in the past 40 years. 

Not exactly true.  I seem to recall rumors of members of the Colorado Wing being awarded USAF awards for their role in the search for a missing A-10 that crashed there.  Again, they were rumors but there might be some merit to that...

[RiverAux]

^ Don't forget for a very long time, the AF ran the daily operations of CAP as a whole.  So, it is assumable that the AF awarded those AF Officers the award, and CAP was their "Unit". 

I think we've launched into two separate questions:
1.  Can an AF unit award be given to CAP.  Not sure about that, though it is very clear that CAP members are eligible for some AF awards that can be given to civilians in general.  Should one care to go through the applicable manual, I'm sure this question could be answered. 
2.  However, if CAP HAS been given these awards, we can presume that it was in accordance with whatever AF rules applied at the time -- I just don't think it likely that CAP actually earned them for any actions that we did on our own and think it unlikely that it was the result of an award being given to the entire service and also included CAP. 

FYI, the Coast Guard Presidential Unit citation for Katrina does allow individual members of the Auxiliary to wear the ribbon if they were in the Aux at the time, I don't think it could be considered that the Coast Guard Auxiliary as an organization received the award.  Basically, anyone in the CG, CG Aux, or CG civilians, or people from other services assigned to the CG at the time got it. 

[James Shaw]

Yes we do have a glag with a streamer and yes it was authorized by the AF. The time period was a long time ago. I have seen the paperwork but dont remember the exact dates. I can guarantee that if Col. Blascovich wrote it, it will be true. In this case I have seen the evidence.

[RiverAux]

Are you talking about the streamer for campaign service (which I believe we would deserve and should have) or the Presidential Unit Citation (of which I am more skeptical that we have actually earned). 

[Hawk200]

I think we've launched into two separate questions:
1.  Can an AF unit award be given to CAP.  Not sure about that, though it is very clear that CAP members are eligible for some AF awards that can be given to civilians in general.  Should one care to go through the applicable manual, I'm sure this question could be answered. 

Why shouldn't we be able to receive one? I don't think CAP would be able to tell the Air Force "You can't give us that!". On that note, why would anyone want to? To turn down any award given by the Air Force would be idiotic. Especially considering that many CAP members want to be taken seriously, or at least acknowledged, by the Air Force.

2.  However, if CAP HAS been given these awards, we can presume that it was in accordance with whatever AF rules applied at the time -- I just don't think it likely that CAP actually earned them for any actions that we did on our own and think it unlikely that it was the result of an award being given to the entire service and also included CAP. 

This doesn't seem like a question. Maybe it should be re-phrased.

[RiverAux]

Why shouldn't we be able to receive one? I don't think CAP would be able to tell the Air Force "You can't give us that!". On that note, why would anyone want to? To turn down any award given by the Air Force would be idiotic. Especially considering that many CAP members want to be taken seriously, or at least acknowledged, by the Air Force.

I didn't say that we couldn't, just that I'm not aware of it being allowed under the applicable regulations.  In the past I have checked them to confirm that individual CAP members are eligible for certain AF military decorations.  If it is allowed, I'd be happy to know that. 

This doesn't seem like a question. Maybe it should be re-phrased.

True.  The actual question is -- For what action was CAP given these awards, if in fact, they have been given to us? 

[SAR-EMT1]

On the other hand, it seems like these days the folks at NHQ seem to think its better to create a CAP equivalent to the USAF awards. It would be better IMHO if they abandoned that tack and went about attempting to obtain USAF awards for CAP members. 

[James Shaw]

Are you talking about the streamer for campaign service (which I believe we would deserve and should have) or the Presidential Unit Citation (of which I am more skeptical that we have actually earned). 

Streamer was for service during WWII and the PUC was for the combined missions we performed. They were also awarded the American Defense Service medal but were never authorized to wear it.

[Timbo]

....They were also awarded the American Defense Service medal but were never authorized to wear it.

A wholly military personnel only medal, would make me think that it was awarded to those who ran the CAP, military Officers and Enlisted, as "CAP" being listed as their "unit", and not actually the CAP members or volunteers.  The notion that the CAP was "never authorized to wear it",  meaning the volunteers, makes sense, as they were not military. 

More fitting would have been the "American Campaign Medal" for strictly "service within the Continental United States". 

[NAYBOR]

I guess the question I have is:  Is anyone in CAP (as in "AF Aux", not "CAP-USAF") allowed to wear any of these decorations/medals/ribbons?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I'd think that at least anyone who was a member when the medals were authorized can wear them.

As for the rest of us? Guess we'll find out. Or not....

[Hawk200]

On the other hand, it seems like these days the folks at NHQ seem to think its better to create a CAP equivalent to the USAF awards. It would be better IMHO if they abandoned that tack and went about attempting to obtain USAF awards for CAP members. 

Not sure whether to agree or not. On one side, it would be a powerful recognition of CAP members. On the other hand, how would it look when worn by current and former military members? Someone seeing the member in CAP uniforms might get the impression that the inidividual was wearing something they weren't authorized.

Another thing that would have to be addressed would be the corporate uniforms. Military awards and decs aren't authorized on the CSU or Aviator combinations, which means that those members opting to wear that uniform wouldn't be permitted to wear a legitimately earned award. If it was permitted, then it would be fine. I don't have a problem with it, but I don't think the Air Force would approve. And yes, they would have to allow wear of their dec on an other that Air Force variant uniform, even if they don't control the actual uniform itself.

[RiverAux]

Streamer was for service during WWII and the PUC was for the combined missions we performed. They were also awarded the American Defense Service medal but were never authorized to wear it.

I just don't believe the PUC was earned by CAP and I won't until I see the actual paperwork with my own eyes or see it referenced in an official AF history.  While what our folks did was quite brave, it wasn't the equivalent of what the 101st Airborne did at Bastogne (pick your own example of other actions for which the PUC was awarded). 

[Gunner C]

I posted this in the wrong current thread:

I direct your attention to this thread:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4549.0

According to CAP-USAF/CC, there is a campaign streamer that's been awarded to Hqs CAP-USAF.  Strange - they're flying a unit award that THEY didn't earn.  The guys in the little yellow airplanes did.  I think that this award belongs to the wings that actually flew the missions, not the guys who were in the rear with the gear.

Gunner

[Timbo]

And yes, they would have to allow wear of their dec on an other that Air Force variant uniform, even if they don't control the actual uniform itself.

Not true, law allows veterans to wear medals, ribbons, etc on civilian clothing (usually in a comparable place to that of AD folks).  The AF has no control over that.  That is why I don't understand why CAP won't allow military ribbons on the CSU. 

[Gunner C]

And yes, they would have to allow wear of their dec on an other that Air Force variant uniform, even if they don't control the actual uniform itself.

Not true, law allows veterans to wear medals, ribbons, etc on civilian clothing (usually in a comparable place to that of AD folks).  The AF has no control over that.  That is why I don't understand why CAP won't allow military ribbons on the CSU. 

If I had to guess, I'd say it's CAP that's doing that.  Not to say that it's a good or bad idea . . .

Gunner

[Hawk200]

And yes, they would have to allow wear of their dec on an other that Air Force variant uniform, even if they don't control the actual uniform itself.

Not true, law allows veterans to wear medals, ribbons, etc on civilian clothing (usually in a comparable place to that of AD folks).  The AF has no control over that.  That is why I don't understand why CAP won't allow military ribbons on the CSU. 

Partly correct. Law allows medals with civilian clothes, and in a specified manner. Some unit citations are permitted as lapel pins, but ribbons are not addressed.  Ribbons go on military uniforms. At present, there is no allowance for ribbons. Ribbons and medals are not the same thing. There are ribbon equivalents to medals, but that is not a blanket authorization to wear all ribbons.

[Timbo]

And yes, they would have to allow wear of their dec on an other that Air Force variant uniform, even if they don't control the actual uniform itself.

Not true, law allows veterans to wear medals, ribbons, etc on civilian clothing (usually in a comparable place to that of AD folks).  The AF has no control over that.  That is why I don't understand why CAP won't allow military ribbons on the CSU. 

Partly correct. Law allows medals with civilian clothes, and in a specified manner. Some unit citations are permitted as lapel pins, but ribbons are not addressed.  Ribbons go on military uniforms. At present, there is no allowance for ribbons. Ribbons and medals are not the same thing. There are ribbon equivalents to medals, but that is not a blanket authorization to wear all ribbons.

Understood. 

[James Shaw]

Got some further information. Streamer was awarded for service during WWII specifically the Coastal Patrol, Only those who actually participated in Coastal patrol are eligible to wear.

Presidential Unit Citation was awarded to USAF leadership of CAP. CAP personnel were never authorized to wear it.

[Timbo]

Presidential Unit Citation was awarded to USAF leadership of CAP. CAP personnel were never authorized to wear it.

So......the AF leaders running the day-to-day paper pushing got the award at the expense of some very hard volunteer members.  That makes sense!

[RiverAux]

Well, if the PUC was awarded to CAP-USAF then it needs to be taken out of that CAP lineage document ASAP.  And as a logical extension of my earlier statement that nothing CAP did was worthy of a PUC, then certainly nothing CAP-USAF did was either.  Heck, they didn't even have a presence at the coastal patrol bases. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

As I have come to understand it:

CAP, as an auxiliary of the US Army Air Corps, was authorized the American Defense Campaign Medal, and the streamer that accompanied the award.  This was specifically for the anti-submarine operations, which were combat operations.

All other CAP activity in WWII and since was or is combat support activity.

CAP carried the streamer until the point that CAP was no longer commanded by an Air Force general officer.  Then the lineage was shifted to CAP-USAF, since that was the only part of CAP that remained directly under USAF command.

But...

When I was at National, NEITHER colors bore the battle streamer, so I don't know.

[Gunner C]

Got some further information. Streamer was awarded for service during WWII specifically the Coastal Patrol, Only those who actually participated in Coastal patrol are eligible to wear.

Streamers aren't worn.  They are a permanent part of a unit's lineage.  There are units that are no longer federal units that are authorized to fly battle streamers from the Revolution. 

Presidential Unit Citation was awarded to USAF leadership of CAP. CAP personnel were never authorized to wear it.

The PUC is awarded for valor only, not for pushing paper and making sure that the gas gets pumped:

for extraordinary heroism in action against an armed enemy on or after 7 December 1941 (the date of the Attack on Pearl Harbor and the start of American involvement in World War II). The unit must display such gallantry, determination, and esprit de corps in accomplishing its mission under extremely difficult and hazardous conditions so as to set it apart from and above other units participating in the same campaign. The degree of heroism required is the same as that which would warrant award of the Distinguished Service Cross, Air Force Cross or Navy Cross to an individual.

Pure baloney on the AF's part.  Show me where any of the WWII CAP headquarters types did this.  If what caphistorian said above is accurate, then it needs to be rescinded.

Gunner

[Eclipse]

Presidential Unit Citation was awarded to USAF leadership of CAP. CAP personnel were never authorized to wear it.

So......the AF leaders running the day-to-day paper pushing got the award at the expense of some very hard volunteer members.  That makes sense!

How is that at the "expense" of the members?  CAP-USAF received an award regular CAP units aren't even eligible for.

Good on ye' to them, how is that a negative for the membership?

[Gunner C]

Presidential Unit Citation was awarded to USAF leadership of CAP. CAP personnel were never authorized to wear it.

So......the AF leaders running the day-to-day paper pushing got the award at the expense of some very hard volunteer members.  That makes sense!

How is that at the "expense" of the members?  CAP-USAF received an award regular CAP units aren't even eligible for.

Good on ye' to them, how is that a negative for the membership?

Did they actually do anything that warrants recognition on the level of a Distinguished Service Cross?  See above.

[Eclipse]

Did they actually do anything that warrants recognition on the level of a Distinguished Service Cross?  See above.

I'm not talking about a WWII DSC, I'm referring to a PUC supposedly awarded to CAP-USAF.

[Gunner C]

Did they actually do anything that warrants recognition on the level of a Distinguished Service Cross?  See above.

I'm not talking about a WWII DSC, I'm referring to a PUC supposedly awarded to CAP-USAF.

That's what a PUC is - a unit level DSC.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Gunner is right.  The PUC is for combat only.  And it is not awarded lightly.

There are lesser unit awards that can be awarded, and the CAP-USAF color has three "Organizational Excellence" award streamers.

Neither the CAP color nor the CAP-USAF color bears any combat streamers.

And, I know streamers are not worn by individuals, but the colors of the ribbon that is worn by individual persons, and the suspension ribbon of the campaign medal, match the color scheme of the battle streamer.

[SAR-EMT1]

The PUC is not strictly awarded for combat. For example, the
Coast Guard - AD, Res, Aux, Civilian was awarded one for its operations in the aftermath of Katrina (a wholly humanitarian mission)
The citation I saw read in part
" these actions spanning the whole of the United States Coast Guard, reflected great credit upon these individuals and upon the American people"

No mention of combat involved or implied. Only that the actions were of of such a scale to encompass everyone in the service.

[cap235629]

Another thing that would have to be addressed would be the corporate uniforms. Military awards and decs aren't authorized on the CSU or Aviator combinations, which means that those members opting to wear that uniform wouldn't be permitted to wear a legitimately earned award. If it was permitted, then it would be fine. I don't have a problem with it, but I don't think the Air Force would approve. And yes, they would have to allow wear of their dec on an other that Air Force variant uniform, even if they don't control the actual uniform itself.

Incorrect.  If a CAP member is a veteran he/she CAN wear their military awards IF THE SERVICE THAT AWARDED THEM ALLOWS FOR WEARING THE AWARDS ON CIVILIAN CLOTHING

below is the response I received to an email sent to Ms. Parker on this exact topic:

Flag this message
RE: question
Friday, April 25, 2008 9:49 AM
From:
"Parker, Susie" <SPARKER@capnhq.gov>
Add sender to Contacts
To:
"Bill Hobbs" <cap235629@yahoo.com>
You are correct--CAP members may wear their military ribbons on the new Corporate Uniform if the branch of service authorizes them on civilian clothing.  Medals are not authorized on this uniform but you may wear your Army ribbons with your CAP ribbons on the new Corporate service coat and the aviator shirt worn with the blue slacks and blue epaulets.

If I can answer any other questions for you please let me know.

SUSAN P. PARKER
National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6332
Voice:  877-227-9142, extension 212
Fax:  334-953-4262


From: Bill Hobbs [mailto:cap235629@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:09 PM
To: Parker, Susie
Subject: question

I have a question about the CAP distinctive uniforms

This question is the result of conversation between myself and other members based upon a Wiki article on CAP.

here is the section of the article that prompted this question:

"In March 2006, optional new "corporate" uniforms were introduced for senior members with white shirts, Air Force blue trousers and Air Force officer epaulettes without the "CAP" titling. Notably, this uniform has a nameplate that only says "Civil Air Patrol" with the member's last name; there is no mention of "United States Air Force Auxiliary." At the 2006 National Executive Committee meeting, a matching double-breasted blue service coat was approved. Metal rank insignia and "CAP" collar insignia are worn on this, along with the metal nameplate and CAP buttons, but only CAP ribbons and devices are permitted; prior-service military ribbons and devices are not be authorized for wear on this uniform (unless authorized to be worn on civilian clothing by the awarding authority). The service and flight caps will continue to be worn with CAP-distinctive variations"  (emphasis mine to clarify)

Is this true?  I cannot find this notation anywhere else but everything else in the article was dead on.  If this is true then I offer the following:

Army Regulation 670-1 Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms Section 30-6 states the following:

30–6. Wear of medals on civilian clothes
Retired personnel and former members of the Army (as described above) may wear all categories of medals described in this regulation on appropriate civilian clothing. This includes clothes designed for veteran and patriotic organizations on Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature. Personnel may wear either full-size or miniature medals. Personnel who wear medals on civilian clothes should place the medals on the clothing in approximately the same location and in the same manner as for the Army uniform, so they look similar to medals worn on the Army uniform. (as described above in the above quote refers to former Army members who are veterans of wartime service only, it does not apply to all veterans)

If the article is correct then it would appear that I can wear my Army decorations on the aviator shirt and corporate dress uniform jacket at appropriate functions as I am a veteran with wartime service.  Please advise me if this is the case.

Thank You


Bill Hobbs
2LT, CAP
83rd Composite Squadron
Civil Air Patrol
Fort Smith, Arkansas

[MIKE]

 

[Timbo]

^^ So emails from Employees are now as good as ICL's??

I am confused, I read regs and change letters updating regs, but now I must also scan for emails sent to others on uniform issues. 

Until I see a new ICL or an update to 39-1 saying "wear your dec's on the CSU" I will go by the most current ICL. 

[cap235629]

This information was also in a powerpoint presentation that NHQ showed at one of the board meetings.  It also appears somewhere in the minutes of the meeting that authorized the CSU as well I believe.

As far as an email from Ms. Parker, I have been told that the buck stops with her regarding uniform interpretations.  I have been repeatedly referred to her any time I have asked for clarification through the chain of command or elsewhere.  This avoids the multiple interpretations that one gets from all of our beloved barracks lawyers.

[bosshawk]

Interesting email from Suzie Parker.  Looks like I will have to update my ribbon rack with the four new CAP ribbons and one military ribbon that I have added in recent months.  Of course, I now have to deal with Vanguard to get ribbons and a new mounting rack.  Now, I guess that I will have to wear my aviator shirt once in awhile.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Another thing that would have to be addressed would be the corporate uniforms. Military awards and decs aren't authorized on the CSU or Aviator combinations, which means that those members opting to wear that uniform wouldn't be permitted to wear a legitimately earned award. If it was permitted, then it would be fine. I don't have a problem with it, but I don't think the Air Force would approve. And yes, they would have to allow wear of their dec on an other that Air Force variant uniform, even if they don't control the actual uniform itself.

Incorrect.  If a CAP member is a veteran he/she CAN wear their military awards IF THE SERVICE THAT AWARDED THEM ALLOWS FOR WEARING THE AWARDS ON CIVILIAN CLOTHING

below is the response I received to an email sent to Ms. Parker on this exact topic:

Flag this message
RE: question
Friday, April 25, 2008 9:49 AM
From:
"Parker, Susie" <SPARKER@capnhq.gov>
Add sender to Contacts
To:
"Bill Hobbs" <cap235629@yahoo.com>
You are correct--CAP members may wear their military ribbons on the new Corporate Uniform if the branch of service authorizes them on civilian clothing.  Medals are not authorized on this uniform but you may wear your Army ribbons with your CAP ribbons on the new Corporate service coat and the aviator shirt worn with the blue slacks and blue epaulets.

If I can answer any other questions for you please let me know.

SUSAN P. PARKER
National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol
105 S. Hansell Street
Maxwell AFB AL 36112-6332
Voice:  877-227-9142, extension 212
Fax:  334-953-4262


From: Bill Hobbs [mailto:cap235629@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:09 PM
To: Parker, Susie
Subject: question

I have a question about the CAP distinctive uniforms

This question is the result of conversation between myself and other members based upon a Wiki article on CAP.

here is the section of the article that prompted this question:

"In March 2006, optional new "corporate" uniforms were introduced for senior members with white shirts, Air Force blue trousers and Air Force officer epaulettes without the "CAP" titling. Notably, this uniform has a nameplate that only says "Civil Air Patrol" with the member's last name; there is no mention of "United States Air Force Auxiliary." At the 2006 National Executive Committee meeting, a matching double-breasted blue service coat was approved. Metal rank insignia and "CAP" collar insignia are worn on this, along with the metal nameplate and CAP buttons, but only CAP ribbons and devices are permitted; prior-service military ribbons and devices are not be authorized for wear on this uniform (unless authorized to be worn on civilian clothing by the awarding authority). The service and flight caps will continue to be worn with CAP-distinctive variations"  (emphasis mine to clarify)

Is this true?  I cannot find this notation anywhere else but everything else in the article was dead on.  If this is true then I offer the following:

Army Regulation 670-1 Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms Section 30-6 states the following:

30–6. Wear of medals on civilian clothes
Retired personnel and former members of the Army (as described above) may wear all categories of medals described in this regulation on appropriate civilian clothing. This includes clothes designed for veteran and patriotic organizations on Veteran's Day, Memorial Day, and Armed Forces Day, as well as at formal occasions of ceremony and social functions of a military nature. Personnel may wear either full-size or miniature medals. Personnel who wear medals on civilian clothes should place the medals on the clothing in approximately the same location and in the same manner as for the Army uniform, so they look similar to medals worn on the Army uniform. (as described above in the above quote refers to former Army members who are veterans of wartime service only, it does not apply to all veterans)

If the article is correct then it would appear that I can wear my Army decorations on the aviator shirt and corporate dress uniform jacket at appropriate functions as I am a veteran with wartime service.  Please advise me if this is the case.

Thank You


Bill Hobbs
2LT, CAP
83rd Composite Squadron
Civil Air Patrol
Fort Smith, Arkansas

Bill:

Medals... not ribbons.  "Full size and miniature medals."  But... "All categories of medals" may have some meaning.  If Suzy says the ribbons are good, OK, wear 'em.

Besides, I'm overweight and I wear the TPU.  My attitude is that my ribbons are sort of like my gray hairs...  I earned them, I wear them!

[RiverAux]

Kach read it right -- MEDALS, not ribbons.   Straying a bit though....

[Hawk200]

Kach read it right -- MEDALS, not ribbons.   Straying a bit though....

Gonna stray a bit more, but promise I'll get closer on track.

One, I stated that awards and decs aren't authorized on the CSU and Aviator combo's. On the CSU, apparently Suzie Parker feels that is acceptable to wear the ribbon equivalents on the CSU. If you feel that is acceptable, then go ahead. But it might be safe to carry a copy of that email, because otherwise, it's hearsay.

Two, on the Aviator (and I'm referencing the white shirt with gray slacks) combo, military awards are not authorized. Unless someone has an ICL that indicates it is, it's not. Only CAP ribbons and badges are permitted on that uniform. Suzie Parker's response is that you may only wear them on the "Corporate Service Uniform" or the "Aviator shirt with blue slacks and blue epaulets" (often referred to as CSU lite).

Three, a Presidential Unit Citation is not a medal, and wouldn't be authorized on either uniform at present. For those members of the time period cited, it may be possible to get Air Force approval. I wouldn't really have a problem with it, if properly approved.

[Timbo]

^ Hawk, what you just posted makes NO SENSE!  We can wear military ribbons/dec's on a uniform that closely resembles the AF uniform, but we can't wear them on a uniform that is SO very distinctive from the AF uniform (that seems asinine) 

UNTIL (I say again) Until, there is an ICL changing the guidance on the wear of the military bling on the CSU away from what the original ICL stated (NO military bling) then you CAN NOT wear them.  Emails are not policy changes.  Phone Calls are not policy changes.  Power Point Presentations are not Policy Changes.  Third party conversations are not Policy Changes.  Policy Changes come from our CAP leadership, or a delegated employee, countersigned by one of our National Officers. 

If one of my SQD members tried to say "oh I got an email backing up my wearing of this grey beret from Suzie Parker" I would first laugh and then ask him or her to take it off and wait until we get a formal change letter, or an updated 39-1.

Please, folks......most of you have careers where you could find yourself in deep water if you tried to pass this BS off at work.  (i.e. "Ted in Marketing said that Accounting told his friend Bob in Sales that we can use the corporate card for lunch every other Tuesday, and the company would cover the cost)

[Hawk200]

^ Hawk, what you just posted makes NO SENSE!  We can wear military ribbons/dec's on a uniform that closely resembles the AF uniform, but we can't wear them on a uniform that is SO very distinctive from the AF uniform (that seems asinine) 

I'm not sure what doesn't make sense.

1. Suzie Parker says wear your ribbons on a CSU since the Army allows medals on civilian clothing (which seems a bit roundabout). Fine. Just keep a copy of the email in case someone challenges you on it.

2. On the white shirt/gray slacks combo, military decs aren't authorized. Only the CSU. Ms. Parker stated specifically the CSU, no other variation.

3. Presidential Unit Citation is not a medal, and IAW Army standards would not be authorized on civilian clothes.

The blue uniform is an Air Force uniform, even if it's called "Air Force style". It has distinctly identifying insignia for CAP, but it's still a military uniform. Thus, military decs are permitted on it.

The CSU and Aviator combos are not military, never have been, and never will be no matter how much anyone wants them to be. In the eyes of the military branches, they are civilian clothing items. Doesn't matter if they look military or not.

I pretty much agree with the way you would deal with it. In general, it can be difficult to tell people to remove something when they can always tell the higher ups that "it's approved by National, here's my paperwork". It tends to be a constant battle.

All in all, if something is authorized, it should be in a reg or supplement to the pub. I don't care for ICL's personally. Too many to keep track of. And I really don't care for things being "approved" by the Personnel section that didn't get dealt with directly by the Board or the membership. Seems a little too "backdoor" to me.

[cap235629]

One, I stated that awards and decs aren't authorized on the CSU and Aviator combo's. On the CSU, apparently Suzie Parker feels that is acceptable to wear the ribbon equivalents on the CSU. If you feel that is acceptable, then go ahead. But it might be safe to carry a copy of that email, because otherwise, it's hearsay.

Two, on the Aviator (and I'm referencing the white shirt with gray slacks) combo, military awards are not authorized. Unless someone has an ICL that indicates it is, it's not. Only CAP ribbons and badges are permitted on that uniform. Suzie Parker's response is that you may only wear them on the "Corporate Service Uniform" or the "Aviator shirt with blue slacks and blue epaulets" (often referred to as CSU lite).

Well I went back and researched it a bit here is a quote from the ICL dated 01/25/08 regarding the CSU:

d. Corporate Service Coat. Effective 29 June 2006, a Corporate Service Coat
was approved. This double-breasted coat will be worn by senior member officers with
metal grade insignia, the silver nametag and CAP ribbons, badges and devices as
currently authorized on the Air Force Service Coat. General officers wear one inch
stars centered on the epaulet. All other CAP officers wear their grade insignia 5/8 inch
from the end of the epaulet. This coat will have mirror-finished "Civil Air Patrol" buttons
and be worn with the standard "CAP" lapel insignia. The "CAP" device is worn resting,
on but not over the seam, 1/4 inch above the bottom edge of the collar. General officers
will wear 1 1/2 inch gray braid on the sleeve. All other senior member officers will wear
1/2 inch gray braid. Braid will be worn 3 inches from the bottom of sleeve. The CAP
service cap with gray braid on the visor is authorized for male, senior member officers.
Female senior member officers may wear the currently authorized service cap. Cadets
over 18 wearing this coat will wear the "CAP" lapel device, blue nametag and grade
insignia as currently authorized on the Air Force Service Coat. This coat may also be worn with a black bow tie on formal occasions when the mess dress would be worn.

As indicated in bold it says as authorized on the AF style uniforms.  This might be where all of this started as military awards are allowed on AF style uniforms.  I know it says CAP awards but the as authorized on AF style uniforms allows way too much room for interpretation at a local level which is why a call to NHQ for clarification was in order. 

I suppose if MG Courter had answered the phone we could dismiss Ms. Parkers response, but until then we must rely on the duly authorized representative of the National Commander to answer our questions and provide clarification.

[Timbo]

^ Wow.  Nice interpretation, but that would not hold up in mickey mouse court. 

It says CAP Ribbons, badges......   By placing the word "CAP" in front of the word "Ribbons, and a "," separating the next item in the description sentence, it means that "CAP" would be placed in front of the words "Badges" and "Devices" as well, but for grammatical shortening of the sentence you do not need to place the "CAP" in front of each word for the reader to understand that they are all "CAP" items.

   

[Eclipse]

^^ So emails from Employees are now as good as ICL's??

Timbo, I have to go with you on this one.

I have a lot of respect for Suzy's knowledge and contacts, but all too often she is put in the position of interpreting ambiguous regulations or worse, her answers are considered policy, even when initiated from her desk.

She's not in the chain, nor does she have the authority to interpret regulations, especially where that interpretation directly conflicts with whatever the written comment is, reg, ICL, or other, and there is the occasion when she is actually wrong, and that just makes things worse.

We need to stop leaning on her so much to settle arguments and work the chain properly.

[Timbo]

We need to stop leaning on her so much to settle arguments and work the chain properly.

I agree.  (I also have seen wrong information presented on the Knowledgeable before)  The chain should be were we go.  Asking the SQD Commander to clear something up, means you will get an answere and if he or she does not know, then they will ask the next level.  It is also good to back ansewers up with a definite "go here for what I am telling you" response.  Nothing better then getting the answer and knowing where to go for it by yourself in the future.

Nothing against Ms. Parker, she does a terrific job (especially with all of us bugging her).  However, policy and regulation issues do need that hard piece of paper fact that can be passed around.  (Power Point, just does not cut it) 

[MIKE]

...And another one gone.