CAP has a Presidential Unit Citation?

RiverAux · December 20, 2008, 01:03:12 AM

According to the Sept 21, 2001 issue of the Prop and Triangle (an irregular newsletter that used to be put out by the National Historaian) CAP has earned a Distinguished Unit/Presidential Unit Citation (AF) and an AF Outstanding Unit Award with Combat V service.

Here is the link to the story (only available on the internet wayback site as far as I can tell: http://web.archive.org/web/20010926162242/http://history.nhq.cap.gov/

The same newsletter also says that we have a campaign streamer for the American Campaign with Bronze Star for antisubmarine work.

Now, I wouldn't argue that CAP earned the campaign streamer, though I would be interested to know if we were officially given one.

But, I am quite suspicious of the awards. I assume that somewhere at National there is a national CAP flag and I wondered if any of the folks that have been there have actually seen the streamer or seen documents for the awards? I also wonder what those awards are supposedly for.

Flying Pig · December 20, 2008, 01:11:48 AM

I find it odd that non-combatant volunteer received a "V"

BuckeyeDEJ · December 20, 2008, 01:18:47 AM

I guess the question should be: Where's the paperwork?

And, for the bling hounds: Which, if any, of the awards, may be worn on the uniform?

The combat device is probably because, oh, maybe, of the wartime service? Bombs strapped to "those [darn]ed little yellow planes," possibly?

dhon27 · December 20, 2008, 01:37:59 AM

Could the awards referenced in the lineage been issued to CAP-USAF and not CAP itself?

Flying Pig · December 20, 2008, 01:51:47 AM

OK....raise your hands.....who has already purchased their ribbons??

BuckeyeDEJ · December 20, 2008, 01:55:54 AM

Quote from: dhon27 on December 20, 2008, 01:37:59 AM
Could the awards referenced in the lineage been issued to CAP-USAF and not CAP itself?

Did CAP-USAF exist in World War II? Nope.

And does the policy letter apply, you know, the one that strikes down the wear of citations by people who weren't in the unit when the citation was issued? Or does the Air Force's policy apply?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Timbo · December 20, 2008, 02:35:13 AM

The AF can award CAP members awards. It just has not been done in the past 40 years.

dhon27 · December 20, 2008, 03:17:29 AM

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 20, 2008, 01:55:54 AM
Quote from: dhon27 on December 20, 2008, 01:37:59 AM
Could the awards referenced in the lineage been issued to CAP-USAF and not CAP itself?
Did CAP-USAF exist in World War II? Nope.

Well, first, I don't think the lineage states the date of the awards. Second, the lineage identifies the awards as "Distinguished/Presidential Unit Citation (AF), AF Outstanding Unit Award with Combat "V" Service" Since the U.S. Air Force also didn't exist during WWII, it is possible that the awards were granted after WWII (more accurately after USAF was created), and, thus, could have been awarded to CAP-USAF.

dhon27 · December 20, 2008, 03:23:07 AM

Actually, this might be the answer: the document linked below (CAP Knowledgebase) has a different version of the CAP lineage, which says "Distinguished/Presidential Unit Citation (AF), AF Outstanding Unit Award with Combat "V" Service. (CAP-USAF)"

Link

RiverAux · December 20, 2008, 03:30:09 AM

Well, that appears to be a different version of the same document. Hard to tell which is the current, but probably the one in the knowledgebase. Though it doesn't really answer anything.

But, it just makes it worse. For one, if these awards are for CAP-USAF, then they shouldn't be listed on a sheet supposedly documenting CAP's lineage and honors. And two, if they actually are for CAP-USAF, I think it is even less likely that they would have earned them as a unit than would CAP. Unless, the unit to which CAP-USAF belongs at some point earned them (or maybe the whole AF got it at once like the Coast Guard did after Katrina).

Timbo · December 20, 2008, 03:42:43 AM

^ Don't forget for a very long time, the AF ran the daily operations of CAP as a whole. So, it is assumable that the AF awarded those AF Officers the award, and CAP was their "Unit".

Duke Dillio · December 20, 2008, 04:09:10 AM

Quote from: Timbo on December 20, 2008, 02:35:13 AM
The AF can award CAP members awards. It just has not been done in the past 40 years.

Not exactly true. I seem to recall rumors of members of the Colorado Wing being awarded USAF awards for their role in the search for a missing A-10 that crashed there. Again, they were rumors but there might be some merit to that...

RiverAux · December 20, 2008, 04:16:26 AM

Quote from: Timbo on December 20, 2008, 03:42:43 AM
^ Don't forget for a very long time, the AF ran the daily operations of CAP as a whole. So, it is assumable that the AF awarded those AF Officers the award, and CAP was their "Unit".

I think we've launched into two separate questions:
1. Can an AF unit award be given to CAP. Not sure about that, though it is very clear that CAP members are eligible for some AF awards that can be given to civilians in general. Should one care to go through the applicable manual, I'm sure this question could be answered.
2. However, if CAP HAS been given these awards, we can presume that it was in accordance with whatever AF rules applied at the time -- I just don't think it likely that CAP actually earned them for any actions that we did on our own and think it unlikely that it was the result of an award being given to the entire service and also included CAP.

FYI, the Coast Guard Presidential Unit citation for Katrina does allow individual members of the Auxiliary to wear the ribbon if they were in the Aux at the time, I don't think it could be considered that the Coast Guard Auxiliary as an organization received the award. Basically, anyone in the CG, CG Aux, or CG civilians, or people from other services assigned to the CG at the time got it.

James Shaw · December 20, 2008, 05:02:03 PM

Yes we do have a glag with a streamer and yes it was authorized by the AF. The time period was a long time ago. I have seen the paperwork but dont remember the exact dates. I can guarantee that if Col. Blascovich wrote it, it will be true. In this case I have seen the evidence.

RiverAux · December 20, 2008, 07:29:22 PM

Are you talking about the streamer for campaign service (which I believe we would deserve and should have) or the Presidential Unit Citation (of which I am more skeptical that we have actually earned).

Hawk200 · December 20, 2008, 08:56:05 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on December 20, 2008, 04:16:26 AMI think we've launched into two separate questions:
1. Can an AF unit award be given to CAP. Not sure about that, though it is very clear that CAP members are eligible for some AF awards that can be given to civilians in general. Should one care to go through the applicable manual, I'm sure this question could be answered.

Why shouldn't we be able to receive one? I don't think CAP would be able to tell the Air Force "You can't give us that!". On that note, why would anyone want to? To turn down any award given by the Air Force would be idiotic. Especially considering that many CAP members want to be taken seriously, or at least acknowledged, by the Air Force.

Quote from: RiverAux on December 20, 2008, 04:16:26 AM2. However, if CAP HAS been given these awards, we can presume that it was in accordance with whatever AF rules applied at the time -- I just don't think it likely that CAP actually earned them for any actions that we did on our own and think it unlikely that it was the result of an award being given to the entire service and also included CAP.

This doesn't seem like a question. Maybe it should be re-phrased.

RiverAux · December 20, 2008, 09:19:44 PM

QuoteWhy shouldn't we be able to receive one? I don't think CAP would be able to tell the Air Force "You can't give us that!". On that note, why would anyone want to? To turn down any award given by the Air Force would be idiotic. Especially considering that many CAP members want to be taken seriously, or at least acknowledged, by the Air Force.

I didn't say that we couldn't, just that I'm not aware of it being allowed under the applicable regulations. In the past I have checked them to confirm that individual CAP members are eligible for certain AF military decorations. If it is allowed, I'd be happy to know that.

QuoteThis doesn't seem like a question. Maybe it should be re-phrased.

True. The actual question is -- For what action was CAP given these awards, if in fact, they have been given to us?

SAR-EMT1 · December 21, 2008, 02:41:51 AM

On the other hand, it seems like these days the folks at NHQ seem to think its better to create a CAP equivalent to the USAF awards. It would be better IMHO if they abandoned that tack and went about attempting to obtain USAF awards for CAP members.

James Shaw · December 21, 2008, 02:52:39 AM

Quote from: RiverAux on December 20, 2008, 07:29:22 PM
Are you talking about the streamer for campaign service (which I believe we would deserve and should have) or the Presidential Unit Citation (of which I am more skeptical that we have actually earned).

Streamer was for service during WWII and the PUC was for the combined missions we performed. They were also awarded the American Defense Service medal but were never authorized to wear it.

Timbo · December 21, 2008, 05:33:31 AM

Quote from: caphistorian on December 21, 2008, 02:52:39 AM
....They were also awarded the American Defense Service medal but were never authorized to wear it.

A wholly military personnel only medal, would make me think that it was awarded to those who ran the CAP, military Officers and Enlisted, as "CAP" being listed as their "unit", and not actually the CAP members or volunteers. The notion that the CAP was "never authorized to wear it", meaning the volunteers, makes sense, as they were not military.

More fitting would have been the "American Campaign Medal" for strictly "service within the Continental United States".