Another ABU Question

[mmouw]

OK, I know we all have speculated about when we are transitioning to ABUs over the last year, but I would like to know from anyone that can say as officially as possible if the discussion has taken place. I know it must be voted on before it happens, but are the wheels in motion for this next year?

The reason I am asking is that I am in need of replacing my BDUs for the first time in almost 10 yrs and want to know if I should wait a few short months or just buy more BDUs. I know that we will be able to wear BDUs long after the AF phases them out, but as you can tell, I take care of them and hope that the replacements will last another 10 years.

Please, no information from a guy who knew a guy who heard it from another guy. Thanks everyone!

[citizensoldier]

I have no idea on what will be done on the ABU.  I would say get some used but servicable BDUs and go with them.  They are cheap.  They will have a wear out date down the line.

CS

[JayT]

What happened when CAP went from fatigues to BDU's?

[lordmonar]

From a reliable source.....we will go to ABUs....it is just a matter of when.  The discussions are taking place as CAP-USAF level.

[RiverAux]

I seem to recall watching one of the national meetings over the internet this spring and hearing something to the effect that it was expected that we would switch over at some point.  But, after that I heard from a person in a position to know such things that I shouldn't hold my breath. 

I think we can be certain that the changeover probably isn't going to happen in the next year, so if your uniform is trashed, go ahead and get a new BDU.  More than likely even after we do switch the BDU will continue to be an approved uniform for several more years, so you've got plenty of time to get your money out of it. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

What happened when CAP went from fatigues to BDU's?

In the interim, we went to OD jungle fatigues. There were a couple of phase-in periods, yada yada, but yes, we had jungle fatigues after the OG 507s and before the BDU.

I miss the OG 507s. They were so easy to take care of, and always looked neat.

[Trouble]

What happened when CAP went from fatigues to BDU's?

In MDWG got to the point that we had folks that could not get a fatigue uniform due to the lack of regular sizes. We had tons of XS tops and bottoms but not much else.  Then our Wing reluctantly allowed the wear of BDUs, with strings attached, until the mandatory wear date took effect. Back then each Wing or Region Commander had he final say as to when their unit could finally transition.  So unless NHQ provides other direction this time around, even though CAP gets approval to wear the ABU, each Wing can hold out on doing so until the mandatory wear date.  I believe this is something that must be addressed when NHQ gets that AF approval for ABUs.

Though on the other hand CAP did not have the BBDU back then. So there was no legal alternative if you could not find fatigues in your size, and did not meet the Wing mandated requirements for wear of the BDU prior to the mandatory wear date.

[Timbo]

^ That makes no sense.  The Mandatory Wear date is not supposed to be the date the Commander "first allows wear" of a particular uniform, it is the date that all members are supposed to be wearing a particular uniform instead of the old one.   

[IceNine]

Not in this organization it isn't.

Try strolling through our regs, and stop thinking about how the military does things.

Mandatory wear date's in CAP is the date that you are required to be in compliance with a particular change this can be adding a patch or accessory or when you are no longer allowed to wear a certain uniform and change to the new one.

Most uniforms and uniform items will have a phase out date as well where that particular item is no longer authorized and you must then choose from an appropriate alternative.

[Timbo]

Mandatory wear date's in CAP is the date that you are required to be in compliance with a particular change this can be adding a patch or accessory or when you are no longer allowed to wear a certain uniform and change to the new one.

Ya.....thought I said that.
 

[Eclipse]

Buy the BDU's.

[JohnKachenmeister]

IF you can hold off until the National Board meeting in March, there may be a more definitive answer available to you then.  If your uniforms make you look like a homeless veteran, by all means, buy a set of BDU's.

In March we are likely to have better answers for you, as opposed to speculation. 

[DNall]

A configuration for ABUs may well be proposed in March depending on some human factors. There is little doubt it'll be approved by AF, but phase in is a completely different matter. CAP will not do the initial authorized date till ABUs are generally distributed to the great majority of AF/AFRes/ANG. So far, that is not really the case. They have been transitioning rather slowly for a number of reasons. In any case, BDUs will remain authorized till most likely in the 2013/14 range, so certainly if you need a new set then don't hold off on the expectation of ABUs.

As far as Wg/CCs not allowing transition within their sphere of influence in the way they did with BDUs or currently with Wg patches. That will not occur. We have one system of CAP uniforms that are controlled at the national level & the national level only. There are no exceptions. Wg/CCs need to keep their focus on things like internal operations, safety, and governmental relations issues.

[Eeyore]

^ Except for when there are exceptions, such as the CAWG GT uniform.

[DNall]

Granted, but there's only so much I/we can do at one time. I can't go fix the state of California right now, I don't have time, plus I'm not sure anyone can fix that weird state. My point is it won't be CAP driven.

Wings are going to stop doing their own thing & get on board with this being a national organization, just like CAP is going to quit doing its own thing & get on board with a FEMA driven national ICS system & with working within the AF structure as a subordinate organization. I think we can all pretty much agree with that. Lets just start small with fixing the uniforms though, huh?

[PORed]

In a perfect world DNall. I wish people would worry less about the new ABUs and more about volunteer rention, modernization to stay relevent and being a true Auxiliary again.

[Eclipse]

Wings are going to stop doing their own thing & get on board with this being a national organization, just like CAP is going to quit doing its own thing & get on board with a FEMA driven national ICS system & with working within the AF structure as a subordinate organization. I think we can all pretty much agree with that.

I'm sorry, but I don't think there's a single shred of evidence that the above is the case - I wish it was, I'll support initiatives that get us there, but I don't see it today.

[IceNine]

Read deeper I'm pretty sure this is a

Microsoft Works
Military Intelligence

Type arguement

[lordmonar]

I know in NVWG we are modernising, using IMU, complying with the ICS system, and working closely with the USAF as a full partner.  We work on our little corner of the world and do the best that we can.

[TEAM SURGE]

From a reliable source.....we will go to ABUs....it is just a matter of when.  The discussions are taking place as CAP-USAF level.

I think the ABU's would be great for CAP. Only problem. Would we be using same insignia?

[IceNine]

^ We don't know.  We currently don't know anything about ABU's as it refers to CAP in any capacity.  This includes them ever being authorized, what we will wear on them, etc.  Everything you see here is speculation no matter how reliable the source.

[Hawk200]

From a reliable source.....we will go to ABUs....it is just a matter of when.  The discussions are taking place as CAP-USAF level.

I think the ABU's would be great for CAP. Only problem. Would we be using same insignia?

I hope not. Hopefully, with an updated uniform, they'll update insignia, too.

[MIKE]

I think the ABU's would be great for CAP. Only problem. Would we be using same insignia?

According to the proposal I saw, no... Unfortunately.

I hope not. Hopefully, with an updated uniform, they'll update insignia, too.

You'll have to see it.

[Timbo]

I doubt CAP will ever see anything but ultramarine blue. 

I would like to get the boots fast tracked for wear with the BDU's though.  All they offer at the local MCSS are the AF style and one pair of black boots that are way expensive, and must be leftovers from before the switch. 

I don't like ordering clothes or shoes or boots on line, as I actually like to stick my feet in the product before I throw cash toward them.  The whole "try before you buy, make sure the quality is good" thing is a real factor in what I buy. 

[Eclipse]

^ I believe I've already bet people here that we'll have ABU's w/ the same name tapes and identical configuration of full-color insignia.

There's no reason for CAP not to, and there are too many "special interest groups" who will lobby for their patch, not the least of which are the local squadrons.

I also don't believe that the phase-out of BDU's will be any sooner than 2014 and probably more like 2015.  There will be discussion with no authorized wear through and past the military phase outs, and I'd say there's just as much chance that CAP will either stay with BDU, or adopt the blue field uniform as the only authorized uniform.

Frankly, there is far more justification for taking either of those actions than in authorizing ABUs.

[TEAM SURGE]

I think the ABU's would be great for CAP. Only problem. Would we be using same insignia?

According to the proposal I saw, no... Unfortunately.

I hope not. Hopefully, with an updated uniform, they'll update insignia, too.

You'll have to see it.

That will be pretty exciting! The old insignia would look horrible, on the ABU's. If we do get ABU's it will not be for quite a long time.

[Timbo]

^ Why cant we get the ABU pattern as the background for the patches, and use white for the lettering, and full color for the rank insignia.  That would be distinctive enough, and keep costs somewhat lower as the tape and material stock is being produced for the military already.

That would be too easy I suppose,  got to KEEP Vanguard as the sole supplier for everything.  

[JoeTomasone]

I doubt CAP will ever see anything but ultramarine blue. 

ABUs with ultramarine would be HIDEOUS.

I'd rather see the insignia/lettering itself be white/gold instead of blue/brown, but on the same tan background.  "Civil Air Patrol" and the name in white should stand out enough to avoid confusion with RM but wouldn't clash as bad as ultramarine.

[JoeTomasone]

^ Why cant we get the ABU pattern as the background for the patches, and use white for the lettering, and full color for the rank insignia.  That would be distinctive enough, and keep costs somewhat lower as the tape and material stock is being produced for the military already.

That would be too easy I suppose,  got to KEEP Vanguard as the sole supplier for everything.  

LOL -- GMTA!

[Eclipse]

That would be too easy I suppose,  got to KEEP Vanguard as the sole supplier for everything. 

Color is not going to keep VG as the sole supplier of nametapes.

Its just material, thread, people's names, and english language words in the public domain.

[TEAM SURGE]

I doubt CAP will ever see anything but ultramarine blue. 

ABUs with ultramarine would be HIDEOUS.

I'd rather see the insignia/lettering itself be white/gold instead of blue/brown, but on the same tan background.  "Civil Air Patrol" and the name in white should stand out enough to avoid confusion with RM but wouldn't clash as bad as ultramarine.

Yeah or get the ABU's back ground for the name tag and CAP tag but put it in Blue lettering so it stands out!

[Eclipse]

I doubt CAP will ever see anything but ultramarine blue. 

ABUs with ultramarine would be HIDEOUS.

Actually they don't look that bad at all:


And with my posting of this photo we have officially circled the discussion back to May, 2006...   

[TEAM SURGE]

I mean it is not horrible actuall. I mean it stands out way too much!

[RiverAux]

ABUs with ultramarine would be HIDEOUS.

We've been wearing a uniform with hideous ultramarine for 20 years, so theres little reason to think that it would change even though there are plenty of options for coming up with color combinations that are distinctive from the AF, but still attractive. 

[TEAM SURGE]

Well thats why we have time to work on it right?

It's gonna be a while so don't hold your breath.

[MIKE]

I prefer the white on ultramarine for it's distinctiveness for CAP today while still having a history of being "Air Forcey" over something that is uncomfortably close while still needing to be distinctive.

[RiverAux]

The white letters on navy blue background (same color as BBDU) example given in a now ancient thread looked sharp, stood out enough to be distinctive and had the added advantage of making absolute sense for wear on the BBDU.    I don't wear the BBDU, but see no reason to have them looking even gaudier than those in BDUs by having mismatched blue objects on the same shirt.

[IceNine]

+1

[DC]

I remember proposing white lettering on grey a while back, it might have been on CadetStuff, IDK..

Navy would look decent, it is muted enough to go okay with the colors on the ABU, and it does make a truckload of sense to have the same tapes and insignia for both the ABU and BBDU. If only the military had that much sense when they came up with five different utility uniforms, and three different boots.. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The white letters on navy blue background (same color as BBDU) example given in a now ancient thread looked sharp, stood out enough to be distinctive and had the added advantage of making absolute sense for wear on the BBDU.    I don't wear the BBDU, but see no reason to have them looking even gaudier than those in BDUs by having mismatched blue objects on the same shirt.

+3

[jb512]

Smurf blue and white looks ridiculous on BDUs and ABUs.

[DNall]

The proposal does not include any shade of blue background for tapes or badges. It is clearly distinctive from AF, but is also professional (ie not clownish). It has already been to CAP-USAF & CAP/CC w/ positive comments. The two issues right now are the supply chain determining when this goes down, and some personnel issues with the cmte. The details on a lot of that needs to stay under wraps at this point.

What's important for membership to understand is:
1) You can and should drive on with BDUs for the time being, as they will remain usable till at least the 2013/14 time frame.

2) ABUs will be coming in the foreseeable future. But worrying about when or what it'll look like is a complete waste of your time. I know what's going on, and I'd be wasting my time speculating on some of those issues.

[lordmonar]

Isn't how all these threads end......."It's comming.....but go ahead and buy BDUs now if you need to".

[SJFedor]

Isn't how all these threads end......."It's comming.....but go ahead and buy BDUs now if you need to".

Actually, they usually end like this:

I think this thread has outlived it's usefulness.

*lock*

[winterg]

But worrying about when or what it'll look like is a complete waste of your time.

And what am I supposed to do without great time-waste threads?

Besides, if we keep you talking you might let something slip. 

[Smokey]

Hey Winterg,


I recognize that stuff at the bottom of your post.  I wear that round AFFTC Shuttle team patch on my zoom bag.  I am the DO for  the CAP .shuttle recovery team.

[AvroArrow]

Got a little lost...

As a community at CAPTalk, we've decided white lettering over the ABU pattern would be distinct, right?

Also, for sewn-on insignia (basically, everyone but the "enlisted" cadets) that would go on the collar like the BDUs?

I need a quick summary of what's been going on 

[winterg]

Smokey,

I was with the Helicopter Rescue unit on Ramp 3 at Hanger 1414 at Eddie's in the early 1990's.  That patch is one of SEVERAL I wore at the AFFTC.  At least when i was wearing a slob-bag.  We wore BDU's a lot there.

[MIKE]

Guys, take it to PM.  Don't derail the topic with an off topic side conversion.

[Timbo]

2) ABUs will be coming in the foreseeable future. But worrying about when or what it'll look like is a complete waste of your time. I know what's going on, and I'd be wasting my time speculating on some of those issues.

That is mere speculation. 

[SarDragon]

^ Except for when there are exceptions, such as the CAWG GT uniform.

Give that a rest. The current Wing King turned that off about a year ago, until such time as it can become a legal uniform.

[MikeD]

^ Except for when there are exceptions, such as the CAWG GT uniform.

Give that a rest. The current Wing King turned that off about a year ago, until such time as it can become a legal uniform.

I thought at last NB there was some magic wand waiving and it's now back to the Wing King to allow it?  I also heard some griping at SARCity about Wing not letting it go and some Sheriff Dept being upset about the lack of orange. 

So for the most hideous uniform combo ever, I propose:
Green Boots
ABU Pants
Orange BDU Shirt with Ultra-ugly-marine patches

[BillB]

The idea of going to the BBDU for everyone is a bad idea. Why? You're forgetting about 20,000 members of CAP, the cadets. By the time CAP goes to the ABU, if they do, ABUs will have started appearing at DRMO or surplus sources. Many cadets can't afford the uniforms required now for activities. The requirement many Wings have for cadets to go to encampment with two sets of BDUs which they have to purtchase or obtain through Squadron supply is a problem for many low income, or even middle income families in this "recession". Lets not forget cadets when thinking of uniforms not available through military surplus or other low cost availabilities.
During the early 1970's in an Air War College paper it was found that it cost a CAP cadet about $800 for uniforms, activities, encampments etc up throughh the Mitchell. What is that in 2008 dollars? Requiring a non low cost uniform would hurt the cadet program.

[JayT]

From a reliable source.....we will go to ABUs....it is just a matter of when.  The discussions are taking place as CAP-USAF level.

I think the ABU's would be great for CAP. Only problem. Would we be using same insignia?

*blinks*

Which insignia?

If you search for ABU's, you'll find about a thousand pages of discussion about this.

[Stonewall]

As far as availability of ABUs for purchase, I have been to 5 AF bases in the past year, Bolling, Charleston, Moody, Lackland and Patrick (5 different states) and all had complete stocks of ABUs.

Everyone entering the AF gets 4 sets and everyone deploying gets them.  The only issue, if you want to call it that, is individual units having enough to issue to their members.  I'm not sure how it is on AD, but in the ANG, we all got issued one set a year ago and the full-time guys have been issued at least 2.

They're available, they just have to be bought.

[Eclipse]

The idea of going to the BBDU for everyone is a bad idea. Why? You're forgetting about 20,000 members of CAP, the cadets. By the time CAP goes to the ABU, if they do, ABUs will have started appearing at DRMO or surplus sources. Many cadets can't afford the uniforms required now for activities. The requirement many Wings have for cadets to go to encampment with two sets of BDUs which they have to purchase or obtain through Squadron supply is a problem for many low income, or even middle income families in this "recession". Lets not forget cadets when thinking of uniforms not available through military surplus or other low cost availabilities.

I'm sorry, but our uniform policies should not be based on whether a small sub-set of a subset of less than 1/2 our members might be able to get them used, if the stars fall into alignment. 

To that argument, have you seen how much the boots for ABU's cost and how difficult they will be to keep clean for the average cadet?  They also rarely get undershirts which will change or hats.

Further, if one wing is being uber-oppressive in their encampment requirements, address it there, not in my closet.

I'd have no issue leaving cadets in the BDU indefinitely, either.

During the early 1970's in an Air War College paper it was found that it cost a CAP cadet about $800 for uniforms, activities, encampments etc up through the Mitchell. What is that in 2008 dollars? Requiring a non low cost uniform would hurt the cadet program.

No way.  I do not buy that.

I would have challenged that in 1970 dollars, let alone whatever the monster number +inflation works out to be today.
$4-500 in todays dollars, maybe.  Maybe.

That's if they pay full retail for everything, never get anything for free, and can't take care of their clothes properly.
I don't think I've dropped more than $2000 myself in 9 years and I have every uniform combination you can wear, including multiples of corporate vs. USAF-style - you put two service coats and a blazer on there with tailoring and that's $500 - no the average cadet's experience.

And I know not all our cadets are in sports, but I'm about done listening to the ones in away-football or hockey complain about how much CAP costs. 

We offer a unique set of opportunities for our cadets (and seniors).  Like everything else in life, they are not free, and the sooner we accept that, the better.

I know of a few ways that 18-35 years olds can get similar opportunities, however that requires a 2-6+ year commitment.  I know of no other way for 12-18 years olds or 36-100+ years olds to get the same opportunities free or otherwise.

[MIKE]

I think we can let the dead horse beating stop once again, as nobody really has an answer to the question posed.