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"Kids" vs Cadets

Started by Gunner C, November 25, 2008, 10:23:35 PM

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Gunner C

Quote from: RiverAux on November 18, 2007, 03:07:39 PM
From the Opelika-Auburn News: http://www.oanow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=OAN/MGArticle/OAN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173353542053&path=!news:
QuoteCivil Air Patrol members compete in local Iron Man Competition

William White  / Staff Writer
November 18, 2007

The second annual CAP Iron Man Competition lived up to its name Saturday for members from across Alabama and Mississippi.

<deleted content>

The U.S. Air Force connection to the Civil Air Patrol said these events give the cadets a chance to compete and have some fun.

"This is good for the kids," said U.S. Air Force Col. Russ Hodgkins. "This gives them a chance to compete in all the basic skills that they learn.



I almost fell off my chair when I read this.  WIWAC, referring to cadets as "kids" was something that was never done.  Kids were our age but we were cadets and we knew that it separated us from the crowd.  This is incredibly disrespectful to our cadets.  They are a cut above and should be treated that way.  When (then) CAP National Commander USAF Maj Gen Putnam visited our encampment, we were treated as members of the team.  When the cadet staff briefed him, he addressed us by our ranks, asked pertinent questions, and never patted us on the head like Hodgkins did above. Never in my cadet career was I or any of my fellow cadets addressed as KIDS.  I've never used that and I've always treated cadets with the respect that they deserve.  If anyone uses this moniker in my presence, they'll have hell to pay (in private).

I think this is another subtle way of finding out what the unsaid, behind the doors, attitude of big blue towards us is.

Taking a queue from CAP-USAF/CC:  Russie, you need to get a clue. 

Gunner

Flying Pig

Id say dont lose any sleep over it. Im sure the Colonel didnt mean anything by it.  And Im sure it doesnt have anything to do with how the "Big Blue" views us.  I think we Seniors take care of that image.

PaulR

#2
Quote from: Gunner C on November 25, 2008, 10:23:35 PM
Taking a queue from CAP-USAF/CC:  Russie, you need to get a clue. 

Gunner

WOW!!!   :o

You are talking about "Respect" yet you fail to refer to an active duty Colonel in the Air Force by his rank? HE is a combat veteran of Desert Storm and a Distinguished Flying Cross recipient.  I am sure that he EARNED his!  Also,  you refer to him as  :o"Russie"?!  What the heck?!?! :-\ 

I can assure you that he meant no malice when he referred to them as kids.  In the eyes of seasoned vets, that is exactly what they are.  This is nothing derogatory meant at all.  This goes beyond any "whine" I have ever heard anywhere...

Gunner C

#3
Quote from: PaulR on November 25, 2008, 10:59:09 PM
Quote from: Gunner C on November 25, 2008, 10:23:35 PM
Taking a queue from CAP-USAF/CC:  Russie, you need to get a clue. 

Gunner

WOW!!!   :o

You are talking about "Respect" yet you fail to refer to an active duty Colonel in the Air Force by his rank?  I am sure that he EARNED his!  Also,  you refer to him as  :o"Russie"?!  What the heck?!?! :-\ 

I can assure you that he meant no malice when he referred to them as kids.  This goes beyond any "whine" I have ever heard anywhere...

It's the attitude.  It's the same as patting someone on the head.  Do you call your female co-workers "missie" or "sweetie"?  I've always addressed superior officers with respect and subordinates with the same.  I had a team sergeant who was addressed by a Lt Col by his first name:  "How're you doing today, Phil?"  He asked.  My team sergeant replied," Not bad, Bobbie.  Thanks for asking."  After the colonel almost swallowed his tongue, my team sergeant said, "My name is Master Sergeant Henry, sir."  It goes both ways.

As for the "Russie" comment, it was deserved.  He knows better.

Gunner

PaulR

Apples and oranges.

Col Hodgkins referring to the cadets as kids is not a crime punishable under the UCMJ.  Sexual harassment is.  >:D

Also members of a military rank are supposed to address one another by their rank and last name.  The Col was not addressing or speaking about a particular person.  I still dont see the issue.  I have heard cadets referred to as kids many times, when they are being discussed by AD people.  I can assure you that there is nothing belittling meant. 

As a former cadet, I feel that making a big deal about this is silly and demeaning in it's own.  Gesh! ;D

JoeTomasone


The cadets ARE kids.

The kids ARE cadets.

Can't get around that basic fact.

WIWAC, I think I might have loosed a little steam at the comment, but again, no real harm done.   Kinda like your grandpa calling you "sonny" and your aunt pinching your cheeks.

I do have to be honest, though -- I tend to view the more mature, dedicated, and focused amongst them as "cadets" and the ones who are slackers, malcontents, or simply run around being immature as "kids" -- probably because my kids are all of those.   :)    I suppose that I hope that the "kids" will blossom into "cadets" -- kind of like how in boot camp "recruits" are turned into "Marines".

Despite that, they all should be called "cadets" -- not just out of respect, but because the regs (CAPP 151) require it.


MIKE

CAPP 151 is not a reg... Just saying.
Mike Johnston

JoeTomasone

Quote from: MIKE on November 26, 2008, 12:56:51 AM
CAPP 151 is not a reg... Just saying.

Granted; did we ever sort out the official answer on the applicability of Regs, Manuals, and Pamphlets?
</threadjack>


MIKE

"nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications"  should pretty much cover it. 

Now back to your thread already in progress.
Mike Johnston

DNall

Okay, I try not to say kids when referring to cadets. It is the wrong message. We are trying to distinguish/separate them from the lower slug-like form of life that is America's youth - the commoners if you will. And, they in turn (in theory) act like adults & become professional military leaders, many of whom formalize the "military" part of that statement later in life.

That said, I call all junior enlisted in the Army kids, even if they're 40. I'm certainly guilty of referring to cadets in that way when in the company of adults & not cadets. BUT, it's not the best idea, and does give the "pat on head" demeaning connotation. Which is probably accurate about the way I feel about those groups of people, but that's not what you want to tell them.

afgeo4

Quote from: MIKE on November 26, 2008, 01:04:28 AM
"nondirective, informative, "how-to" type publications"  should pretty much cover it. 

Now back to your thread already in progress.

So you think all the PD specialty track pamphlets are "non-directive how-to" publications?

They're very specific and must be followed exactly.
GEORGE LURYE

JAFO78

OK someone needs to spend more time sleeping and less time online.  :o

Just kidding.......
JAFO

jimmydeanno

I think he did a great job qualifying the subject he was talking about.  People reading the Opelika-Auburn news are probably more familiar with ROTC cadets (Both at the college and all the ROTC cadets that go to Maxwell for field training every summer).  So their impression of "cadets" are 18+ adults.

I think that "kids" is a good qualifier to show that this is a younger crowd doing this.  I didn't take it as insulting or derogatory.  Plus, in the sentence above they refer to them as cadets.

When you aren't as well known as you'd like to be you need to be more descriptive when talking about your subject.  I can say Scout and everyone knows what I'm talking about.

No harm, no foul.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

Cecil DP

A Cadet is a junior member or someone who is in training.

A kid is an immature goat.

CAP members below the age of 18 are Cadets
Michael P. McEleney
LtCol CAP
MSG  USA Retired
GRW#436 Feb 85

jimmydeanno

Quote from: Cecil DP on November 26, 2008, 04:25:29 PM
A Cadet is a junior member or someone who is in training.

By your definition, but the most commonly familiar to the majority of the population is
Quote
1. a student in a national service academy or private military school or on a training ship.
2. a student in training for service as a commissioned officer in the U.S. Army, Air Force, or Coast Guard. Compare midshipman (def. 1).

People do not generally associate those two with people under 18.  To the majority of the population a cadet is a cadet is a cadet.  The only cadets they've ever seen are adults.

QuoteCAP members below the age of 18 are Cadets

Internally, yes.

QuoteA kid is an immature goat.

or...the number one definition is "a child or young person."

I'm pretty sure if he was actually addressing a group of cadets he'd use the term cadet.  He was talking to an outsider, to me anyway, it is the best way to explain the age group of our cadets, especially when the word cadet is used in the sentence prior.

You guys are making a mountain out of an molehill anthill.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

lordmonar

I can't believe we are having this conversation.

A USAF officer talking to a civilian reporter used a term that is not derogatory in any way.....and we are making a fuss?

Get over it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

notaNCO forever

I would not consider being calling a kid derogatory in any way. If your are a CAP cadet than you are more than likely also a kid.

PaulR

Quote from: DNall on November 26, 2008, 02:52:56 AM
That said, I call all junior enlisted in the Army kids, even if they're 40. I'm certainly guilty of referring to cadets in that way when in the company of adults & not cadets. Which is probably accurate about the way I feel about those groups of people, but that's not what you want to tell them.

My point exactly! 

PaulR

#18
Quote from: Cecil DP on November 26, 2008, 04:25:29 PM
A Cadet is a junior member or someone who is in training.

A kid is an immature goat.

CAP members below the age of 18 are Cadets

To members of the regular armed forces, cadets are Service Academy or OSC Students(18-22 years of age).  Kids are catorized as anyone under the age of 17(under the minimum allowable induction age)...  To keep arguing this is silly.  Get a box of kleenex and move on!!!   ::) 

This PC crap really kills me sometimes. 

Pumbaa

How about a thread on uniforms for kids?

I can't believe this is being debated at all.  I think this site is officially cooked and over done.  I know this is not representative of CAP in my area, so with that I bid you all a fond outtahere!

Definitions of  kid on the Web:

    * child: a young person of either sex; "she writes books for children"; "they're just kids"; "`tiddler' is a British term for youngster"
    * soft smooth leather from the hide of a young goat; "kid gloves"
    * Kyd: English dramatist (1558-1594)
    * pull the leg of: tell false information to for fun; "Are you pulling my leg?"
    * child: a human offspring (son or daughter) of any age; "they had three children"; "they were able to send their kids to college"
    * be silly or tease one another; "After we relaxed, we just kidded around"

Timbo

wow.......lots of emotion here. 

Some of you are acting like kids.......... :D

addo1

 As a cadet myself, my take on this might be a little different. If I was standing with some of my fellow cadets and we were called "kids" by a fellow senior member, then yes, I would have a big problem with that. If a Air Force officer mentioned "kids" one time, probably by mistake (even after calling them "cadets" before), then I would not have an issue as long as it was not a repetitive issue.

Quote from: Cecil DP on November 26, 2008, 04:25:29 PM
A Cadet is a junior member or someone who is in training.

A kid is an immature goat.

CAP members below the age of 18 are Cadets

As a cadet, I can say that we do try to seperate ourselves from being average "kids" to mature young adults. MOST cadets you will find will have greater enthusiam and more respect than you would find in an everyday kid.
Addison Jaynes, SFO, CAP
Coordinator, Texas Wing International Air Cadet Exchange


National Cadet Advisory Council 2010

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: Flying Pig on November 25, 2008, 10:27:55 PM
Id say dont lose any sleep over it. Im sure the Colonel didnt mean anything by it.  And Im sure it doesnt have anything to do with how the "Big Blue" views us.  I think we Seniors take care of that image.

ZING! And amen, brother.

Leave the colonel alone. He didn't mean anything by it. They're kids. They happen to be cadets. If you want to complain about this, I hear there's some communications protocol in Arizona Wing that needs some work....


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

JohnKachenmeister

I know he didn't mean anything by it, but...

When I commanded a cadet squadron, I outlawed use of the term "Kids" to describe our cadets.  Treat them like kids, they will act like kids.  Demand that they do an adult airman's job and they (usually) will come through for you.

But we are old and they are young, and it is an easy mistake to make.
Another former CAP officer

JayT

Quote from: Gunner C on November 25, 2008, 10:23:35 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on November 18, 2007, 03:07:39 PM
From the Opelika-Auburn News: http://www.oanow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=OAN/MGArticle/OAN_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173353542053&path=!news:
QuoteCivil Air Patrol members compete in local Iron Man Competition

William White  / Staff Writer
November 18, 2007

The second annual CAP Iron Man Competition lived up to its name Saturday for members from across Alabama and Mississippi.

<deleted content>

The U.S. Air Force connection to the Civil Air Patrol said these events give the cadets a chance to compete and have some fun.

"This is good for the kids," said U.S. Air Force Col. Russ Hodgkins. "This gives them a chance to compete in all the basic skills that they learn.



I almost fell off my chair when I read this.  WIWAC, referring to cadets as "kids" was something that was never done.  Kids were our age but we were cadets and we knew that it separated us from the crowd.  This is incredibly disrespectful to our cadets.  They are a cut above and should be treated that way.  When (then) CAP National Commander USAF Maj Gen Putnam visited our encampment, we were treated as members of the team.  When the cadet staff briefed him, he addressed us by our ranks, asked pertinent questions, and never patted us on the head like Hodgkins did above. Never in my cadet career was I or any of my fellow cadets addressed as KIDS.  I've never used that and I've always treated cadets with the respect that they deserve.  If anyone uses this moniker in my presence, they'll have hell to pay (in private).

I think this is another subtle way of finding out what the unsaid, behind the doors, attitude of big blue towards us is.

Taking a queue from CAP-USAF/CC:  Russie, you need to get a clue. 

Gunner

Wow, Colonel, is it such a good idea to be disrespectful to an active duty officer you've never met over semantics.....?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

DC

This has been blown way out of porportion, it was an off hand comment to a reporter by an Air Force Colonel.

While I certainly think cadets are far from the typical definition of a 'kid', or even a 'teen', one such remark is not offensive. Senior Members that continually refer to cadets as kids or children I have a serious issue with, but a single comment is not something I am going to lose sleep over.

Seriously, I am amazed this has gone to two pages.

Pumbaa


Maj Ballard

I have met and worked with Col Hodgkins at National Cadet Competition last year. I assure you, he is well aware of the caliber of young people we cultivate in CAP. I especially assure you that, as Commander of CAP-USAF, he is well aware. In my opinion, this is a non-issue (in this specific instance) and certainly does not merit the disrespect shown to the Colonel.
L. Ballard, Major, CAP

Nathan

Quote from: Gunner C on November 25, 2008, 11:14:15 PM
I had a team sergeant who was addressed by a Lt Col by his first name:  "How're you doing today, Phil?"  He asked.  My team sergeant replied," Not bad, Bobbie.  Thanks for asking."  After the colonel almost swallowed his tongue, my team sergeant said, "My name is Master Sergeant Henry, sir."  It goes both ways.

Um... that was completely and utterly inappropriate for your team sergeant to do, regardless of the right or wrong of the term of address.

The cadet's name was Phil Henry, not Master Sergeant Henry. That is his rank. All CAPP 151 dictates that a SM has to address a cadet by is "Cadet." So even if using a name was inappropriate for the SM, and EVEN IF correcting a SM Lt Col was in any way justified for this pithy situation, then Phil should have said, "Please address me as Cadet Henry, sir."

But wow... a CADET correcting a LT COL on terms of address... for seemingly no other reason than ego... wow. Where do cadets learn this? The whole "correcting in private" thing works both ways, but ESPECIALLY when dealing with people who outrank you, if not for their benefit, for yours.

That blows my mind.
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

hatentx

#29
Wow I am shocked this went 2 pages or will I make it three.  So an oversight by calling them kids.  Wow line up the firing squad.  Hell when I tell my non CAP savvy friends I tell them I work with youth am I to be strung up for not saying cadets?  If this is the only issue you can see then wow I want your rose colored glasses.  So they are cadets I get it but are they not kids as well.  If the term was meant to be derogatory then I see the fight but it wasnt at all.  ha and if you dont think Cadet can be derogatory you should see with the ROTC and West Pointers come around in the summer.  To often I tell a private to "go get the [darn] cadet before he hurts someone."  It goes with LT as well lol

Subverting curse filter - MIKE

Pumbaa

#30
QuoteWow line up the firing squad.

AMEN hatentx  !!!!

A thread like this just shows the ignorance and the asinine mentality of some of the "Officers" in this forum.  Let's major on the minors and make CAP look bad.

Let's [censored] and moan about CAP... Let's discuss ad nausium calling cadets, kids (Which they are), or let's have a 30 page uniform thread (again) on why we don't like the current uniform and dream up a new uniform that we have no power to do anyway.

I understand why mama blue and other organizations look at CAP as a bunch of misfits and miscreants.  If what I see in these forums are evidence of it, then god help CAP.

No way am I able to take this place seriously any longer. 

RiverAux

Quote from: DC on November 27, 2008, 05:52:54 PM
This has been blown way out of porportion, it was an off hand comment to a reporter by an Air Force Colonel.

I think that is the point.  While it isn't uncommon for cadets to be referred to as kids by senior members, from a public affairs point of view I certainly wouldn't have recommended using that term in an interview or press release as I don't think it presents the best view of our cadet program.  In other words, there are a lot of things we say among ourselves that you don't want to say to a reporter or put in a press release.

Ned

Quote from: RiverAux on November 29, 2008, 01:52:50 PM[F]rom a public affairs point of view I certainly wouldn't have recommended using that term in an interview or press release as I don't think it presents the best view of our cadet program. 

Dude,

Rather than offering helpful advice to a senior AF officer in a forum he doesn't read, why not just give the guy a call and let him know that you disapprove of his PR skills.

Reach him at 334-953-6092.

I'm sure he'd appreciate your tip.

That was the point, wasn't it?  Constructive criticism to help CAP?  Not just anonymously dog-piling the guy, right?

Ned Lee

RiverAux

QuoteRather than offering helpful advice to a senior AF officer in a forum he doesn't read, why not just give the guy a call and let him know that you disapprove of his PR skills.
Actually, I didn't offer any advice to him.  Just said that I wouldn't have recommended that phrasing.  And I would give the same recommendation to any CAP member as well, including those who actually are reading this thread.

flyguy06

I agree. I never call cadets kids. "kids" dont go out looking for lost airplanes ready to provide first aid. "Kids" arent trained and certified in advanced first aid and CPR. "Kids" arent experts in use of radios. And "Kids" definantly dont fly airplanes. All those skills takes a certain maturity.

Now with that said, I will say that young people have changed since I was a cadet (God, I sound like my dad). I hate to say it like this but I have seen cadets in different settings from Wing to Region to National activities in the last 365 days and I can tell you that a lot of them dont have the discipline or military ceourtisies we had when I was a cadet. I approach many cadets and I am constantly having to remand them to call me sir or salute or other things. After that they are good with me but when I see them talking to other senior members they get back in that laxadasial mode again.

So, I think its just a culture thing. We arent instilling in them military customs as we used to. Sure we teach them to drill and to report and all that but I mean just everyday interaction. They see their unit SM's as their friends and not as their mentors  or superiors and so when they get around  other SM's or military officers they act based upon what they see and experience at their home units.

So, yes I can see why a lot of people, especially military officer sthat do not have everyday contact with cadets see them as "kids" .

Nathan

A kid is a young person.

Cadets are young people.

I still don't really understand the problem.

Let's reverse it. If I were to say about senior members, "Civil Air Patrol can oftentimes provide a sense of responsibility and patriotism for the adults that their normal jobs do not provide", would that be considered disrespectful? They ARE adults.

Say we have a group of cadet NCO's. Are we to refer to them as "the cadet NCO's", since that is their collective status? What if they happen to all be from the same family? Can I just call them, "The Smiths"? What if I did? Would THAT be disrespectful?

The word "kid" is not derogatory or demeaning. He could have said "youth" and it would have meant the same thing. Were there shinier, more professional terms that could have been used that would have made the program look better? Sure. We could have used "United States Air Force Cadet Corps Auxiliarist", or something like that if we wanted to be REALLY cool. But a name is a name, and so long as it's accurate, I really don't think we should be marching down the warpath about it.
Nathan Scalia

The post beneath this one is a lie.

BuckeyeDEJ

This horse is soooo dead.

They're kids, but they're also cadets. No harm was meant, and no offense should be taken. Case closed.

Paging Mike the Moderanger....


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

Pumbaa

Please Kill this thread!!!

PaulR

#38
 MY GOD!!!

Kill this thread and [mess] can it!  PLLLEEEEAAASSSEEE  The crying babies are killing me!! The whining here is worse than I have ever seen at any daycare center around dinner time!

If anyone is truly offended by what the Col said, they should take a deep look at themselves and re-evaluate their meaning of life!

Subverting curse filter - MIKE

RiverAux

You know, when I start seeing calls for threads to be closed, my inclination is to do everything I can to keep them going.  I just don't understand why people don't understand the concept of ignoring those threads they aren't interested in participating in.  No one is forcing you to read every thread, you know.  The vast majority of threads die out naturally within a few days anyway. 

And, for the most part our esteemed moderator ignores such calls for closure so I'm not really sure it is an effective tactic. 

By the way, the thread hadn't had a post for almost 9 hours before someone re-activated it with a request to close it.....

And yes I realize that by making this sort of post, it makes it more likely MIKE will close the entire thread, but I just had to say it. 

Eclipse

#40
Quote from: RiverAux on November 30, 2008, 04:06:15 PM
You know, when I start seeing calls for threads to be closed, my inclination is to do everything I can to keep them going.  I just don't understand why people don't understand the concept of ignoring those threads they aren't interested in participating in.  No one is forcing you to read every thread, you know.  The vast majority of threads die out naturally within a few days anyway. 

Nothing dies on the web, ever.  Google will find the thread until the End of Days, as will every new user who lights up an ID and starts scrolling.

No one is forcing anyone to read them, but the information, disinformation, arguments, or half-baked "fill dead air" ideas are still in the wild for others to read.

When someone tacks "I think we should wear Radio Shack Fire Chief Helmets for safety on ground teams...", up on the wall for all to see, if someone doesn't point out the folly of the idea, these things can tend to have a life of their own and before you know it...


As to the original question, our goal should be to use the right terminology whenever possible, and lighten up a hair when someone makes a mistake, especially someone who we all know is benevolent to CAP.

"That Others May Zoom"

MIKE

Done.  Pumbaa, knock it off with the pics... You are not helping.  Real mature.
Mike Johnston