What coat do you where with the blues when its cold out not a service coat.

[Hoorah]

I was  wondering .

[Pumbaa]

I wear whatever will keep me warm!  temps get down below zero out here.  Add in windchill factor too.  It is now dark by 4:30 in NY, we just got 2 feet of snow from the lakes.

I tell my cadets wear what will protect them.

Safety and comfort/warmth are paramount.  If some uniform weenie wants to complain about my outer garment then I'll throw him in a snowbank and let him think about it!

They wear winter over garments to the meeting and remove them.  When meeting is over they put them back on and head home.  No detours.

[Hoorah]

can i wear my bdu coat with my blues uniform

[Pumbaa]

I would say no.  Wear a civilian coat.

[DC]

No, you cannot.

CAPM 39-1 has a list of outerwear permitted with blues in chapter 2, I would look there for a complete list.

Also, mods, shouldn't this be in the uniform forum?

[Hoorah]

list what coats are allowed with blues please.

[AlphaSigOU]

list what coats are allowed with blues please.

Lightweight blue jacket with (or without) liner
All weather coat

[Major Carrales]

No, you cannot.

CAPM 39-1 has a list of outerwear permitted with blues in chapter 2, I would look there for a complete list.

Also, mods, shouldn't this be in the uniform forum?

Sorry, I cannot totally agree.  If the conditions are such that there is a reasonable health risk, I would suggest one err on the side of safety.  Sometimes the weather can change so rapidly that it is of better practice to remember that one needn't die (or contract pnemonia) for uniform wear.

Ideally if you are wearing a long coat over your blues, and no one can see you are even in a unifrom...are you really in uniform?

Food for thought.

[Hoorah]

what about a civilian jacket

[Major Carrales]

list what coats are allowed with blues please.

Lightweight blue jacket with (or without) liner
All weather coat

I like the Lightweight blue jacket, its cut is pleasing to me.  I also have an all weather coat but have yet to wear it.

[Hoorah]

could you find something like that a military surplus tore

[DC]

I would wear a dark blue, or black civilian jacket if you have nothing else, then, depending on weather, a lightwieght jacket (my preference) or an All Weather Coat.

I highly encourage looking at CAPM 39-1 for more information.

could you find something like that a military surplus tore

Possibly. AAFES or a Base MCSS will have them.

[Pumbaa]

CAP MANUAL 39-1 From page 49 graph.

9. Outer garments

Wear outdoors and remove in an office environment; use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments for wear based on weather conditions and duties.  

Emphasis mine

[Hoorah]

i have a few differnt military stores in my area

[Pumbaa]

People define cold...  Currently it is 31 and snowing where I am.  By January we will dip below 10-20 degrees below zero.  Windchill will make it minus 30.

The lightweight jacket or overcoat IS NOT APPROPRIATE WINTER WEAR for most of the North east or northern states like Alaska or Minnesota!

If a cadet comes to a meeting wearing a winter parka, I am not going to say a freak'n word about his/her outer wear.

[Hoorah]

then what do you wear

[Major Carrales]

People define cold...  Currently it is 31 and snowing where I am.  By January we will dip below 10-20 degrees below zero.  Windchill will make it minus 30.

The lightweight jacket or overcoat IS NOT APPROPRIATE WINTER WEAR for most of the North east or northern states like Alaska or Minnesota!

In South Texas 40-30 degress F is considered cold and people actually start getting sick around there.  Cold is cold, if you are some 30 degrees colder than the norm...it is definded as cold.  While an Alaskan can go in shorts in such weather, South Texas (used to 90-100) can experience cold at other temperatures.

[Hoorah]

nice one i consider a parka like columbia

[DC]

Conversely, I'm pretty cold here in FL at a bone chilling 46 degrees.. Got the heat on, a fire going, and extra blankets on the bed....

[Pumbaa]

Major you are correct.  

By winters end I will go out in just a light sweater in 20 degree weather.  If I am shoveling snow just a sweatshirt and ball cap (pants too wise guys) will do for me.

However for 2 months or more the weather is quite a bit colder than that.  We go for a month or so of sub zero weather... Add in the wet deep snow, ice, etc.  You have a need for a lot more than a light jacket, sweater or over coat.

See my post above from page 49.  that pretty much ends the debate

"use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments"

Also From Page 15. Chapter 2.
e.  Sweaters, men's and women's outergarments, and headgear are also covered.  Outergarments are items worn outdoors and removed in an office environment.  Members should use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments for wear based on weather conditions and duties.

[Pylon]

"use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments"

Yeah, that will hopefully be clarified in the next CAPM 39-1 to read "use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments from the list of authorized outergarments." or something similar.  The line is suppose to suggest that members shouldn't be wearing the great overcoat or scarves and gloves at the height of summer, and that members shouldn't be outside without enough (authorized) layers or with unauthorized outergarments in the cold.

Safety shouldn't be a factor if the unit leaders haven't derelicted their duties. If a squadron hasn't realized they are located where it gets cold for a portion of the year, then there are some serious issues.  If the unit leadership is indeed conscious of a season called "winter", and cadets have financial hardship in procuring appropriate outergarments, the commander has an obligation to find a method to procure authorized outergarments for their members.  It's written that unit commanders bear the ultimate responsibility to ensure members in their unit are in compliance with the uniform regs.

Our unit does not necessarily have cadets with overwhelming financial resources, like many units.  However, our squadron held a fundraiser and bought dozens of M-65 field jackets on the cheap from eBay.  A senior member "sewing night" got all of the jackets sewn to CAPM 39-1 compliance in a few hours.  Members who do not own their own appropriate cold weather gear are loaned one from squadron stock.  This is not impossible, this is not unreasonable, this is not even difficult.  No more "safety" excuse to violate the regs.

Weather is not an excuse to wear whatever you feel because you and your unit failed to plan appropriately for a season that pretty much comes and goes on schedule.  It's not like you didn't know winter was coming, and it's not like most units aren't at least fairly familiar with the resource levels of their members (or a simple poll in early autumn --"all cadets who own a field jacket or goretex, raise your hand please"-- would also reveal the important info).

[Pumbaa]

The line is suppose to suggest that members shouldn't be wearing the great overcoat or scarves and gloves at the height of summer, and that members shouldn't be outside without enough (authorized) layers or with unauthorized outer garments in the cold.

Seems to be a bit of reading it to it.  Pages 15 and 49 are very clear in what they say.  No interpretation is needed.

"use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments" I see no restriction on wearing civilian winter outer garments.

Now... you mention the M-65 jacket.  Are you saying that is authorized wear with the Blues?  The original post was referring to Blues.

Show me in the 39-1 where the M-65 is authorized for over the blues.

[notaNCO forever]

 I wear my leather jacket with a insulated liner.

[Pylon]

Now... you mention the M-65 jacket.  Are you saying that is authorized wear with the Blues?  The original post was referring to Blues.

Show me in the 39-1 where the M-65 is authorized for over the blues.

I said nothing about being authorized for blues.  If you've got winter conditions, it's pretty cold, sometimes wet and sometimes stuff is falling from the sky, does it sound like a good environment to be wearing service dress blues for a typical weekly meeting if BDUs will work just as well?     If it's winter, you don't need to wear blues all the time; why not wear BDUs with appropriate outerwear for the few months it's dead of winter?  

Of course, my argument also applies just the same for the various service dress outergarments as it does for the M-65 field jacket.  They can also be found via surplus routes and the if the unit commander is going to declare SDBs the UOD, then the same obligation applies to ensure members are in and have appropriate and CAPM 39-1 compliant uniforms.

As for it not saying you can't wear civilian outerwear, CAPM 39-1 is an exclusionary regulation.  It says so right in Section 1.  In other words, CAPM 39-1 has to specifically say you can do it.  If there's no mention of it, you can't.  Outerwear/Outergarments have a covered section in the AF-style uniforms section; therefore, you must use the outergarments specifically authorized for their corresponding uniforms or use no outergarment at all.

You know that, though, because you are aware the M-65 can't be worn with blues; you said that in your post.  So if you know the M-65 can't be worn with blues, why would you think civilian outerwear would be more acceptable?

[rightstuffpilot]

If only approved jackets were cold enough for February (yes, yes, I have experienced a week of temperatures averaging -45).  I'm a big stickler on uniforms, I like having the approved jacket and all, but Gortex, M-65, All Weather, or Lightweight blues just don't cut it.  Our AFROTC detatchment is one of a few authorized in the country authorized to wear something that looks like/or is a Navy "Snorkel" Parka.  Unfortunately, I don't think CAP will be authorizing it any time soon.  So from January-March, I suppose I'll resort to Civilian Alternatives.

[Eclipse]

Are we talking about a discussion that encompasses the regs, or are we discussing the allowances some unit CC's make for cadets who cannot afford the proper outerwear?

First there is no allowance for "wear whatever you need for the weather" - the prescribed outerwear is specific, and if we're talking about service dress, as noted above, the only thing authorized is the waist jacket and the trench coat.  Period.

I tell my members to choose another combination if they can't wear it properly because of the weather - another reason to have the golf shirt combo.

Cadets do not have any special rules either, however as I noted many CC's make allowances because of cash-flow issues.  This is counter regs, but for cadets I can understand, as long as the cadets understand they are being provided an exception.

I make no such exceptions for seniors because we have a much broader choice of uniforms, including any number which allow for civilian overcoats.

[Pylon]

I think the "safety" card can be legitimately pulled; but I don't think that it's legitimate every time someone wants to do something out of regs by using the "safety" card.  If you could have easily prevented the situation with a little planning, but lean back on the "safety card" instead that's not legit in my book.  Say for example everyone is at a field activity where there was no forecast for rain.  The skies open up on your unit; everybody grabs and wears what they can to stay dry, warm and safe.  That's legit; that's where safety is important and the "safety card" seems like a pretty legit argument at the time.

Units don't exactly miss the forecast on winter coming.  The unit would have had plenty of time to plan for cold weather and to prepare assistance for members who do not have the resources to buy a $15 field jacket or a surplus overcoat. 

The unit commander's responsibility to ensure members are uniformed appropriately isn't absolved because "Well, we tried for about 10 seconds, but Cadet Smith didn't have $15 in his pocket right now, therefore we'll pull the safety card for the next 5 months straight when he wears his NFL puffy coat for every CAP activity.  We just had no other alternative."

This responsibility is substantial enough that it's the second paragraph in the uniform manual, right on page 1.

1-2. Command Responsibility.  All commanders will ensure that all members, individually and collectively, present a professional, well-groomed appearance, which will reflect credit upon CAP as the auxiliary of the United States Air Force. They will ensure all members are uniformed in accordance with the provisions of this manual, uniform violations are promptly corrected, and that members are continually informed as to the proper wear of the uniform.

To me, that responsibility doesn't just apply to the typical violations like chevrons 1/2" off or wearing the wrong color socks.  To ensure members are uniformed IAW with the provisions includes ensuring they have appropriate outerwear.

Like I've said in dozens of posts, this isn't a big deal.  This isn't like asking every squadron to build their own squadron building from scratch or buy every cadet a flight sim laptop.  It took me a few nights surfing eBay, one night of sewing to outfit my entire squadron with winter outerwear that was fully compliant.  I even have extra ones on hand so when Cadet Snuffy shows up and "forgot" his field jacket, it takes 90 seconds to sign-out another one from supply.

I'm not in a big squadron with unlimited resources; I'm a squadron in a rural area with limited resources and members with limited resources.  But because I put some effort into it, not only is this whole debate made moot but my squadron looks that much more professional with everyone wearing the same outergarment.

[Major Carrales]

Pylon,

Someday you will command a squadron, at that time you will learn that "theories" on regulations give way to "realities" of circumstance.

If some person is wrapped up in a civilian coat designed to "keep warm," it is not apparent that they are in a "uniform."  So they wear a CAP uniform under these clothes...dude, they are trying to stay warm.  Its not unreasonable.  I suspect we could go into "winter quarters" and do nothing until the sun comes out.  Not exactally mission centered.

Now...behold this...





Hummmm...strange looking headwear for CAP.  Not quite cricket according to CAPM 39-1.  And in BDUs.  Ooops, didn't someone just throw away the "safety card?"

[Pylon]

Pylon,

Someday you will command a squadron, at that time you will learn that "theories" on regulations give way to "realities" of circumstance.

Someday when I command, I will learn, huh?  I guess I've just been stuck in a theoretical world.  Thank God there's a commander around who's BTDT to set me straight with his "reality" experience and 1000 yard stare.   :clap:

If some person is wrapped up in a civilian coat designed to "keep warm," it is not likely that they are in a "uniform."  So they wear a CAP uniform under these clothes...dude, they are trying to stay warm.  Its not unreasonable.  I suspect we could go into "winter quarters"

So Cadet Snuffy wears his G-Unit puffy vest (dude... he's trying to stay warm!) and his boonie hat (dude... the brim keeps the sun/snow off his face!) and his Brown suede Carhart boots (dude... it keeps his feet warm and dry, and insulated boots just cost too much!) and his purple snowpants (dude... it keeps his legs dry out in the field!).  All of those would be justified under the exact same "safety card" logic as civvie coats.  Unless you stop allowing the safety card to be leaned back on when prior planning could have prevented the situation.

Now...behold this...

<img src="http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42567000/jpg/_42567985_kieloch_416.jpg" width="80">

Hummmm...strange looking headwear for CAP.  No quite criket according to CAPM 39-1.  And in BDUs.

You're right.  This was an actual "safety card" situation.  Remember the distinction I made between prevention by prior planning and actually running into a situation despite reasonable preparation? 

You'll notice that picture you linked to was on the BBC.  We had 12 feet of snow in 48 hours, state of emergency, and were operating 8-12 hour duty days, outdoors in snow banks more than 8 feet high while the snow was still falling; some of us even slept at the duty site for the second day, so not much access to laundry facilities and fresh stuff.  After a certain amount of time, much of what we started with (many of our BDU caps, field jackets and blouses, etc.) were soaked with sweat and snow.  At some point, we started using whatever was dry and available to outfit our members (who arrived to the duty site and started duty in appropriate uniforms). So yeah, I'd call that a legitimate safety card despite reasonable prior planning.

I'm not saying in my argument that the situation won't arise where you'll need to fall back on civilian or other outerwear to augment.  It always will.  I am taking into account your "realities of circumstances" argument.  CAP does have a limited uniform closet and we're not completely issued 8 sets of every possible uniform item.  So yeah, there will be legit situations.  I just don't buy the routine meeting is one of them.

What I'm saying is that I fail to believe that the "safety card" is a legitimate argument when you're talking about routing squadron meetings where the squadron and members have had months to plan for one outergarment per member.

[Major Carrales]

Pylon,

Someday you will command a squadron, at that time you will learn that "theories" on regulations give way to "realities" of circumstance.

Someday when I command, I will learn, huh?  I guess I've just been stuck in a theoretical world.  Thank God there's a commander around who's BTDT to set me straight with his "reality" experience and 1000 yard stare.   :clap:

If some person is wrapped up in a civilian coat designed to "keep warm," it is not likely that they are in a "uniform."  So they wear a CAP uniform under these clothes...dude, they are trying to stay warm.  Its not unreasonable.  I suspect we could go into "winter quarters"

So Cadet Snuffy wears his G-Unit puffy vest (dude... he's trying to stay warm!) and his boonie hat (dude... the brim keeps the sun/snow off his face!) and his Brown suede Carhart boots (dude... it keeps his feet warm and dry, and insulated boots just cost too much!) and his purple snowpants (dude... it keeps his legs dry out in the field!).  All of those would be justified under the exact same "safety card" logic as civvie coats.  Unless you stop allowing the safety card to be leaned back on when prior planning could have prevented the situation.

Now...behold this...

<img src="http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42567000/jpg/_42567985_kieloch_416.jpg" width="80">

Hummmm...strange looking headwear for CAP.  No quite criket according to CAPM 39-1.  And in BDUs.

You're right.  This was an actual "safety card" situation.  Remember the distinction I made between prevention by prior planning and actually running into a situation despite reasonable preparation? 

You'll notice that picture you linked to was on the BBC.  We had 12 feet of snow in 48 hours, state of emergency, and were operating 8-12 hour duty days, outdoors in snow banks more than 8 feet high while the snow was still falling; some of us even slept at the duty site for the second day, so not much access to laundry facilities and fresh stuff.  After a certain amount of time, much of what we started with (many of our BDU caps, field jackets and blouses, etc.) were soaked with sweat and snow -- so yeah -- I'd call that a legitimate safety card despite reasonable prior planning.

I'm not saying in my argument that the situation won't arise where you'll need to fall back on civilian or other outerwear to augment.  It always will.  We have a limited uniform closet and we're not completely issued 8 sets of every possible uniform item. 

What I'm saying is that I fail to believe that the "safety card" is a legitimate argument when you're talking about routing squadron meetings where the squadron and members have had months to plan for one outergarment per member.

Weak

[A.Member]

That's a N3B USAF issue parka.   In real cold weather states and it is authorized.    See 39-1, Table 2-1, #9:

Outergarments:  Worn outdoors and removed in an office environment. Use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments for wear based on weather conditions and duties.

[Pylon]

Weak

Great response, Joe. 

It must be tough to consider my "theoretical" argument with all those "realities of command" you've got floating around over there.

[Major Carrales]

Weak

Great response, Joe. 

It must be tough to consider my "theoretical" argument with all those "realities of command" you've got floating around over there.

WEAKER

[Pylon]

Oh yeah, speaking of weak:



Must have been justified by safety.  All those "realities" that come with being a squadron commander demand a brown leather A-2 to deflect it all.  Or was it that rough weather in Texas?

In any case, I'll go ahead and take that leg you were standing on.  You won't need that anymore...

[A.Member]

Geez you guys.   

[Major Carrales]

Oh yeah, speaking of weak:



Must have been justified by safety.  All those "realities" that come with being a squadron commander demand a brown leather A-2 to deflect it all.  Or was it that rough weather in Texas?

In any case, I'll go ahead and take that leg you were standing on.  You won't need that anymore...

WEAKEST

[addo1]

Oh yeah, speaking of weak:



Must have been justified by safety.  All those "realities" that come with being a squadron commander demand a brown leather A-2 to deflect it all.  Or was it that rough weather in Texas?

In any case, I'll go ahead and take that leg you were standing on.  You won't need that anymore...

Maybe time for a little maturity on everyone's part. That bickering is not a good reflection on CAP.

[Eclipse]

That's a N3B USAF issue parka.   In real cold weather states and it is authorized.    See 39-1, Table 2-1, #9:

Outergarments:  Worn outdoors and removed in an office environment. Use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments for wear based on weather conditions and duties.

Sorry, spin again.  USAF parkas are certinaly not approved for wear by CAP members.

The above quote says that within what is approved, members should make good choices - it is not a Carte Blanche to wear whatever we want to, anymore than we could wear Gor-Tex before it was approved, better or not.

Pylon has it right - the safety card is when you find yourself in a situation you did not anticipate and you make the best choice for the situation, which then ends with the emergency.

The "safety card" is not valid for routine uniform wear or situations where a member has had months to plan, regardless of who is paying for the gear.

[Pylon]

WEAKEST

Well at least you agree with me there.

Maybe time for a little maturity on everyone's part. That bickering is not a good reflection on CAP.

People abusing the uniform, wearing a Celtics Starter jacket over their blues isn't a good reflection on CAP either. 

CAPM 39-1 is a train wreck; there will be times when we just can't be in 100% compliance.  That freak rain storm, or when you've been out in the field for a day or two and you're covered in mud, or when prior planning won't make that M-65 any warmer.  But I was hoping people would see that a little prior planning for the routine, weekly meetings and other routine cases, 100% compliance is pretty obtainable.

[Major Carrales]

That's a N3B USAF issue parka.   In real cold weather states and it is authorized.    See 39-1, Table 2-1, #9:

Outergarments:  Worn outdoors and removed in an office environment. Use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments for wear based on weather conditions and duties.

Sorry, spin again.  USAF parkas are certinaly not approved for wear by CAP members.

The above quote says that within what is approved, members should make good choices - it is not a Carte Blanche to wear whatever we want to, anymore than we could wear Gor-Tex before it was approved, better or not.

Pylon has it right - the safety card is when you find yourself in a situation you did not anticipate and you make the best choice for the situation, which then ends with the emergency.

The "safety card" is not valid for routine uniform wear or situations where a member has had months to plan, regardless of who is paying for the gear.

That is not necessarily the case in Texas.  It can be 80 degrees F at 1500 and 30 degrees F at 1800.  It can be raining now and dry and clear 20 minutes later.

[afgeo4]

I find it odd that no one's mentioned that the service or service dress uniform is not an appropriate uniform to be worn out in extreme cold. The proper uniform for extreme cold is BDU (which in USAF includes extreme cold and arctic parkas, pants, boots, and special thermal undegarments).

There shouldn't be one outdoor activity done outside when it's extreme cold that would require blues.

That means if your uniform of the day is blues and you're meeting indoors (as it should be), the best, smartest, and most authorized thing to do would be to wear proper civilian clothing to/from meeting and change into/out of blues when at the meeting.

USAF doesn't have any special blues outer garments outside of the ones authorized for CAP. If people were made to march/work outdoors in very cold weather in blues, they'd be allowed to wear parkas/gortex/field jackets for safety reasons. As long as everyone's wearing the same thing, and it's weather appropriate, it looks just fine and the leadership is happy that people are being taken care of properly.

Why someone would require people to be in blues for that is a whole other story.

[Pylon]

That is not necessarily the case in Texas.  It can be 80 degrees F at 1500 and 30 degrees F at 1800.  It can be raining now and dry and clear 20 minutes later.

So, it's known the temperature can drop dramatically at night or rain can crop up... Having some CAP outerwear handy isn't a bad plan of action.  Bam... that's prior planning and that's 100% uniform compliance.  Yay - every one is now happy.

It's certainly not an excuse for wearing civilian outerwear to routine meetings.  If they had the foresight to bring civilian outerwear to the activity, they could have planned for authorized outerwear.

[Major Carrales]

That is not necessarily the case in Texas.  It can be 80 degrees F at 1500 and 30 degrees F at 1800.  It can be raining now and dry and clear 20 minutes later.

So, it's known the temperature can drop dramatically at night or rain can crop up... Having some CAP outerwear handy isn't a bad plan of action.  Bam... that's prior planning and that's 100% uniform compliance.  Yay - every one is now happy.

It's certainly not an excuse for wearing civilian outerwear to routine meetings.  If they had the foresight to bring civilian outerwear to the activity, they could have planned for authorized outerwear.

At last we agree.  Routine wear of these items is definately a no no.  However, if we are suddenly hit by snow (Winter 2004) and then the temperature goes back up (to 70 degrees) I cannot in good mind allow cadets to freeze, now can I?  No more than you could freeze your ears off.

As for your response...I believe I am the only on that carries my whole wardrobe with me in the car.

[afgeo4]

back to the topic...

Cadet Williams, from my experience in NYC and Syracuse, NY, the warmest blues combination is this:

1. wool blend pant
2. wool blend shirt, long sleeve w/tie
3. authorized v-neck pull-over (also wool)
4. lightweight jacket w/ liner
5. black leather gloves (lined) with glove liner underneath
6. do wear thermal underwear under the whole thing if you're going to be outside the whole time
7. black cotton socks with gortex sock liner
8. flight cap (can't do much with that)
9. loosely fitting low quarters (tight fitting ones will cut off circulation in your feet which creates frostbite at higher temperatures)

[A.Member]

That's a N3B USAF issue parka.   In real cold weather states and it is authorized.    See 39-1, Table 2-1, #9:

Outergarments:  Worn outdoors and removed in an office environment. Use good judgment in choosing appropriate garments for wear based on weather conditions and duties.

Sorry, spin again.  USAF parkas are certinaly not approved for wear by CAP members.

Not spin again.  The reg simply says use good judgement.  It makes no other statement.  Look at Pylon's photo.  Based on the conditions in that photo, it appears he used good judgement.  

The above quote says that within what is approved, members should make good choices - it is not a Carte Blanche to wear whatever we want to, anymore than we could wear Gor-Tex before it was approved, better or not.

No, it doesn't.  The quote I posted is directly from 39-1.  The above quote does not say, "within what is approved"!   You're making an interpretation on wording that doesn't exist.  

The wording and arrangement is poor when it comes to outerwear (one of the many issues with 39-1).  As such, for those in cold weather states, I am willing to be more lenient and view that one with some common sense.  Fact of the matter is that neither our regs nor our supply allow for an appropriate outergarment for true cold weather states.  Until that happens, common sense will prevail.

[Eclipse]

edit - I have no idea why I involve myself in these pointless discussions.

[Hawk200]

While in Alaska, our unit regularly wore readily available USAF issued outerclothing, and wore it in the same manner as the airmen on the base wore it. This included N3B's parkas, the associated pants, military issue mukluks, leather mittens, and the insulated headgear (such as Pylon is demonstrated wearing earlier). Most of the items I wore had been issued by the Air Force, and I simply wore them with CAP uniforms in the same manner.

I tend to be picky on 39-1 when it's applicable, but in all fairness, it doesn't cover the location of every unit we have. The items I've mentioned above were Air Force issue, and I used them in the same manner that I would have if the uniform said "U.S. Air Force" on the branch tape.

Overall, if the manual does not cover the type of outergarments needed, then the commander should supplement it. In order to keep our unit legal, I created a supplement specifying what Air Force equivalent items would be authorized. The commander sent it to the wing CC for perusal. The wing CC forwarded copies to all the units in the wing. The wing CC also obtained from the Air Force many of these items, and had them sent to units that might not otherwise obtain them.  Don't know if it's still done, but it was while I was there.

I'd even proposed a uniform based on the old wool fatigue pattern uniform. It was worn by the members of the Arctic Survival School, so there was local precedent. We abandoned it due to the fact that it was hard to obtain, and when someone could, it might not be available in appropriate sizes.

All in all, many of the items that we wore on the Air Force side were not it the regs. It was local issue military outerwear, appropriate to the climate. CAP HQ should permit, and encourage the same practice. Probably best to stick with military issue items, allowing civilian equivalents could create a free for all with little uniformity. Mirror the policies of the nearest Air Force installation would serve everyone well. Not to mention, many of the AF used items would probably be readily available locally.

[CAPLAW]

If a cadet has a bdu jacket , why not wear it with blues. It is better than wearing a NASCAR jacket or jean jacket.

[notaNCO forever]

If a cadet has a bdu jacket , why not wear it with blues. It is better than wearing a NASCAR jacket or jean jacket.

I wouldn't  say a BDU jacket looks better than a denim jacket with blues.

[afgeo4]

If a cadet has a bdu jacket , why not wear it with blues. It is better than wearing a NASCAR jacket or jean jacket.

I wouldn't  say a BDU jacket looks better than a denim jacket with blues.

But it does if everyone is wearing the same BDU jacket with the same blues. Remember why uniforms exist in the first place.

[exFlight Officer]

I like the Lightweight blue jacket, its cut is pleasing to me.  I also have an all weather coat but have yet to wear it.

+1  Agreed!

[Майор Хаткевич]

I purchased a black M-65 for winter wear in my civvies.

As for freezing temperatures when it comes to blues:

-Try to avoid blues
-If necessary, wear a blue/black jacket over them.

BDUs really are the better choice though, as you can layer up underneath and on the uniform itself.

[RogueLeader]

^ Thats why I bought an all-weather coat. . . .

although the rank slides don't fit nice . . .

[Hawk200]

^ Thats why I bought an all-weather coat. . . .

although the rank slides don't fit nice . . .

Split the seam on the underside, and sew some wide enough Velcro on so that it sits wide enough. You may want to re-iron the crease so it looks right.

[Eclipse]

^ Thats why I bought an all-weather coat. . . .

although the rank slides don't fit nice . . .

Split the seam on the underside, and sew some wide enough Velcro on so that it sits wide enough. You may want to re-iron the crease so it looks right.

Just buy the right slides that already have Velcro on them...

[Hawk200]

Just buy the right slides that already have Velcro on them...

He already has a set. Why buy new ones?

[SarDragon]

I guess it all depends on sewing skills and what time is worth. I have the skills, but would probably buy the additional set anyway.