American Cadet Alliance

[Major Carrales]

On the other hand, CAP lets virtually anyone in the door as long as they aren't a serious criminal. And then makes no distinction between competent qualified leaders and worker bees. Our freakin officer selection and training program is an absolute travesty. For all the good things about CAP, that one fact just about spoils it all. It certainly is the reason we gay up the program by disallowing so many tools out of the toolbox to get the job done.

Uh, Dennis.  When you make statements like this I get the impression you miss the reality of the situation.  CAP is a communty service organization of volunteers that are locally driven by a core of people that want to serve their nation in the spirit of the Civil Defense movement during the Second World War.

It had been demonstrated most incredulously here that those that have "other agendas," ones that are more about personal glory than that afore mentioned community spirit, encounter the most problems and backlash.  We, thus, are called to do CAP for that reason...for the Community and for the CADETS.  Many times we do that with no resources from WING/NATIONAL, only with resources we bring in as individuals.

In my eye, then, the only "officer selection process" is on that keep criminals et al out and bring the communitarians in.

For me, I am a Community Servant...that is why I swithced from Engineering to teaching.  That is why I give violin lessons for the ridiculously low price of 10 dollars per hour to students that want to become musicians.  That is what I pay the dues of Cadets whose parents cannot because of situations beyond that families control. 

If I was not in CAP, I would be doing the same thing elsewhere as a Scout Master, or in a Squire Circle at the Knights of Columbus or raising money for such programs in the Optimists Club.  CAP officers me a unique form of service involving Emergency Services work as well as molding the future.

It would be the same with the ACA in the communities of the so called "fly over" country.  There will be interested people with the desire and without the resources.  They will not be able to traverse the nation to get the training.  Either ther standards will have to come down a bit...or...less than qualified people will have to fill the positions in a unit (the problem you seem to see in CAP)...or...the effort fails.  That will lead to heartbroken communitarians and cadets.  That is too high a price to pay.

A new unit is often started in isolation, with folks that, many times, have only their outside experiences and a regulation manual to get started. Competent qualified leaders are made in CAP, most time, out of the necessity of having a unit. 

That you would call us "worker bees" is a might insulting.  Especially to those of us that have invested so much time, energy and money in making it work with what we have.

And what is thus constant use of the term "gay?"  This is the second time you have used it here that I have read.  Is that how you see us in CAP?  Are we "CAP HAPPY?"  Are you insinuating that we are "homosexuals?"  Your use of such a phrase is less than professional...from any angle.  Consider use of a more fitting term.

[RiverAux]

It appears that the use of the term "gay" has become very common in teenagers and young adults as a synonym for "wimpy", "weak", "soft" or "unmanly" without necessarily meaning homosexual though obviously it started out meaning that based on common stereotypes about homosexuals.   

[Major Carrales]

It appears that the use of the term "gay" has become very common in teenagers and young adults as a synonym for "wimpy", "weak", "soft" or "unmanly" without necessarily meaning homosexual though obviously it started out meaning that based on common stereotypes about homosexuals.   

It would definitely seem so.  However, I think there are better terms to use here than such adolescent verbage. 

[NIN]

Actually, none of those people receive any training on how/when to use punitive PT as a training tool. No such training exists in the military. Those individuals also work under almost zero supervision.

I am not a DS, and have received no such training, but I do very effectively utilize this tool for training junior enlisted soldiers.

Not exactly true.  TRADOC Reg 350-6, I think it is, outlines the use of physical training for corrective training, and you can darn sure bet that Drill Sergeants and other cadre are fully briefed on the hows and wheres of that policy.  At least, the USAR drill sergeants I was working with this summer were.

Its corrective training, not "punitive PT."   Have I used it (not in CAP)?  Yep. Have I used it a bunch? Nope.  Maybe twice in 2 years.  And both times were an appropriate application of physical training for the purposes of corrective training.  Its used as an attention getter and not much more. 

The problem always comes from the folks who are the least capable of understanding that, however, and wind up "smoking" a platoon of cadets for some dumb reason.

You know what's key there? Neither of us are morons. We were selected for responsibility and underwent intensive training - not training that qualifies us to use this disciplinary tool, but training that weeds out people that suck. In that process we've proven our professionalism, personal discipline, core values, etc... and really just maturity.

I saw that in the WLC POC: "If you suck, you will not graduate WLC.."

Uh huh.

<snip>
Let me also note that there are a lot of misconceptions about what "bootcamp" is. There is almost no yelling there, at least in the modern Army version. There is a two-week period focused on getting in shape and instilling discipline, etc. After that, it is a fairly lax environment focused on training soldier skills. Full Metal Jacket is a fantasy, and most of what happens in that movie would get a DS thrown off the trail & out of the Army, if not in jail.

And as far as retention... actually, standardized application of a structured program, which may include things like disciplinary PT, would drastically increase retention. It's the standardized application, and conducted to standard aspects that are currently impossible for CAP to achieve. We are our worst enemy.

Unfortunately, you're right: too many cadets watch Full Metal Jacket as a training film...

Lot of seniors, too!

I don't know that it would drastically increase retention, but what you have to consider is that CAP has nearly deliberately been tremendously vague in defining hazing such that my definition and your definition and Joe Carrales' definitions may be so far apart as to be utterly unusable.  And with such broad interpretation, we lose the ability to standardize. 

Bringing this back home to USAC Corps... they are trying to avoid these pitfalls with: a MUCH stronger officer selection and training program; cadet leader training programs that do address how to apply tools like disciplinary PT; and by growing as an org at a pace that allows the spread of their program to the standards they expect. It'll take forever for them to achieve what CAP has, and they may never do it, but they're stronger right from the start for doing it right. In that respect I think CAP can take some major lessons.

Indeed. 

[DNall]

Neither of those things has anything to do with CAP, which first and foremost is a benevolent, non-combative organization.

Not to be overly picky here, but benevolent means you do no harm, and non-combat means you don't participate in direct engagements. Okay. I don't wear dresses & I don't ride unicycles. Do you know anything about what I actually do based on that statement? No, that's cause it's a completely wrong answer to what CAP "first and foremost" is.

It was only recently that USAF Basic Training started to stress ground-combat skills, either. For better or worse, that's not what the USAF is about.

The AF has been lazy for a long time. They're changing that now. 90% of the Army doesn't engage in direct ground combat, but you'll see supply units out running squad attack drills. The AF is now directly engaged on the ground on a wide scale, and are providing basic skills training in basic training. That's has little to do with what the AF is or is not about, and whole lot to do with basic skills necessary to survive in a combat zone regardless of job.

[DNall]

Actually, none of those people receive any training on how/when to use punitive PT as a training tool. No such training exists in the military. Those individuals also work under almost zero supervision.

I am not a DS, and have received no such training, but I do very effectively utilize this tool for training junior enlisted soldiers.

Not exactly true.  TRADOC Reg 350-6, I think it is, outlines the use of physical training for corrective training, and you can darn sure bet that Drill Sergeants and other cadre are fully briefed on the hows and wheres of that policy.  At least, the USAR drill sergeants I was working with this summer were.

I'm not certain such a brief is part of DS school, and if it is it's part of the fire hose treatment in which they remember nothing. I've never gotten such a brief, nor does anyone else in the Army need to have it in order to use this tool, nor am I bound by any TRADOC regs.

Its corrective training, not "punitive PT."   Have I used it (not in CAP)?  Yep. Have I used it a bunch? Nope.  Maybe twice in 2 years.  And both times were an appropriate application of physical training for the purposes of corrective training.  Its used as an attention getter and not much more. 

I was using his term, but yeah that's about it. I'm not a staff officer at those events, I'm a direct trainer & OIC of the training they're doing. That's working with people just coming into the Army, who are in the complete wrong mindset & have no desire to change. Our job there is to set them up for success. So, getting attention and establishing a discipline instantly is key. We then maintain & train on for the rest of the wknd and send them on their way. Our retention/ship rate since amping up to that level (versus being lax & just teaching classes) is up over 100%. I got a commendation medal out of that.

The problem always comes from the folks who are the least capable of understanding that, however, and wind up "smoking" a platoon of cadets for some dumb reason.

You know what's key there? Neither of us are morons. We were selected for responsibility and underwent intensive training - not training that qualifies us to use this disciplinary tool, but training that weeds out people that suck. In that process we've proven our professionalism, personal discipline, core values, etc... and really just maturity.

I think those two statements are in agreement.

Let me also note that there are a lot of misconceptions about what "bootcamp" is. There is almost no yelling there, at least in the modern Army version. There is a two-week period focused on getting in shape and instilling discipline, etc. After that, it is a fairly lax environment focused on training soldier skills. Full Metal Jacket is a fantasy, and most of what happens in that movie would get a DS thrown off the trail & out of the Army, if not in jail.

And as far as retention... actually, standardized application of a structured program, which may include things like disciplinary PT, would drastically increase retention. It's the standardized application, and conducted to standard aspects that are currently impossible for CAP to achieve. We are our worst enemy.

Unfortunately, you're right: too many cadets watch Full Metal Jacket as a training film...

Lot of seniors, too!

I don't know that it would drastically increase retention, but what you have to consider is that CAP has nearly deliberately been tremendously vague in defining hazing such that my definition and your definition and Joe Carrales' definitions may be so far apart as to be utterly unusable.  And with such broad interpretation, we lose the ability to standardize. 

I wasn't even talking about disciplinary PT anymore, more the program at large. Standardized, structured, professionally run, strong planning/organization by officers, disciplined execution... those things are all lacking in our program. When a kid comes to a military based program, they don't want to see their leaders untrained/incompetent, making up the schedule as they go, etc. They want to see military precision executed by professionals to established high standards, they want to be held to those standards, and they want to be shown an example and taught how to get there through training, mentoring, and experience.

Tags - MIKE