American Cadet Alliance

[Flying Pig]

How exactly are the two going to work "very closely"?  We have 2 different missions.  Are we going to have joint encampments or something?  Are they going to go on SAR's with us?

[arajca]

A couple yearas ago, ACA and CAP worked together in a joint color guard...

[Major Carrales]

In such situations, joint CAP and ACA, it would be necessary to truly examine the matter in a way that would find commonalities.

I'm about finding solutions...the way it would best work in my eye would be to form an ACTION COMMITTEE made up of three CAP CP Officers and three ACA Officers who knew their respective programs intimately. And someone to serve as chair.

They would meet to create the nature of joint activities that would best serve both organization.  A clear list of possible activities would be outlined and codified in a true joint manual that would be both an ACA and CAP regulation...identical in each.

A set-in-stone timeline would be given and adhered to to do that.  Then the plan would go into effect.

Before anyone says, "well, you know" about there committees..."they never get anything accomplished."  Then I would suggest that such naysayers volunteer for the committee and that all understand that this would require a level of dedication commiserate to "getting the job done."

It might also be good to mention the MOU with the Boy Scouts and dual chartering of squadrons and posts.

[Eclipse]

How exactly are the two going to work "very closely"?  We have 2 different missions.  Are we going to have joint encampments or something?  Are they going to go on SAR's with us?

Our missions may have different text in the headers, but the organizations are not that different, and share a fair number of members.

The first step in "working together" is simple joint awareness and possible sharing of resources.  As an example, I could see a joint encampment that shared logistics, operated separately where required, and brought success to the table from both sides as being a very good idea.

I personally know of several situations where similar organizations have been treated as malevolent competitors by CAP people (to the point of literally getting into verbal and physical confrontations) which is unacceptable and unprofessional.  There's a big difference between "service pride" and acting like a bad-parent soccer coach.

At the end of the day we're all just trying to build good citizens, leaders, raise military awareness, and help our communities.

The rest is nuance.

[NIN]

I'm not in a position to necessarily detail the conversations that have been occurring in the last 30 days between the ACA & CAP.  I'm not saying they're secret, I'm just saying that they're nascent and for me to go blabbing all over the Interwebs about stuff that's ongoing is outside of my lane.

However, high-level conversations have occurred, and will continue to occur, between the two outfits.


CSM Schanabel (left), senior enlisted advisor to the National Commander, BG Charles R. Tornow, US Army Cadets National Commander, and then-BG Amy Courter, Civil Air Patrol's National Commander, chat at the Civil Air Patrol National Board Meeting in Kissimmee, FL.

And that's a good thing.

Now, going forward, I would not be surprised to possibly see CAP cadets attending USAC training functions, and vice versa.

Leadership is, more or less, leadership.  So having several CAP cadets attend USAC's BLC (Basic Leaders Course) would not be out of line.   Or having a few USAC cadets come to a regional cadet leadership school would be pretty cool, too.

Sure, the USAC doesn't have ES.  Not everything CAP cadets do is rooted in ES.

But I bet that CAP cadets love to rappel and throw hand grenades.

[Ned]

I'm about finding solutions...the way it would best work in my eye would be to form an ACTION COMMITTEE made up of three CAP CP Officers and three ACA Officers who knew their respective programs intimately. And someone to serve as chair.

Guys,

I sat in a meeting with MG Courter and BG Turnow just a couple of weeks ago, and let me assure you that the guidance from both GOs is to find a way for us to work together.

And we are doing that.

Things like MOUs and joint activities were discussed and plans made.

While we appreciate the suggestions, remember that there are two separate organizations here, with somewhat different traditions and cultures.  I am confident that we can resolve any issues that may arise, but we do need to work on issues like supervision of  one organization's troops by adult leaders of the other.  This raises issues like CPPT and other legal stuff that takes some time and discussion to resolve.

But look to see some joint activities by next summer.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor
Former CAP Legal Officer

[MIKE]

But I bet that CAP cadets love to rappel and throw hand grenades.

Oh yeah! 

If you ask me, CAP needs to get off the ES Hobby Horse as it relates/doesn't to Cadet Programs.

[BillB]

Ned Lee hit the nail on the head. ACA is the way AP USED to be. CAP's CPPT and no pushups for punishment etc etc will be stumbling blocks. Another difference is the age of cadets. The majority of CAP cadets tend to be younger than the average age of ACA cadets. A survey (in 2004) indicated that CAP cadets wanted a more military atmosphere (65% vs 30% with 5% undecided). This flies in the face of CPPT and the CAP program The old CAP cadet program had classes following a set curriculum for each achievement, not progress at your own pace. If a cadet failed a test, he/she tried harder to learn the material and pass when the test was given again. Now there is little incentive to learn AE materials since the cadet knows he/she can take the test in 30 days.

[Eclipse]

If you ask me, CAP needs to get off the ES Hobby Horse as it relates/doesn't to Cadet Programs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however to me it is one of the most important distinctions between CAP and other similar organizations - a genuine operational role in helping communities in times of disaster.

The fact that it is not executed uniformly, or as well as it should be, doesn't change that.

[Eclipse]

A survey (in 2004) indicated that CAP cadets wanted a more military atmosphere (65% vs 30% with 5% undecided). This flies in the face of CPPT and the CAP program.

No, it doesn't, and if you believe it does, you're missing the point.

"more military" does not necessarily mean "more mean".  It means setting specific standards of performance and training, adhering to them across the board, and making few, if any, exceptions when people can't perform to that standard.

Punitive PT just makes you tired, which may be an end in itself, but it does not make you a better cadet or soldier.

[MIKE]

If you ask me, CAP needs to get off the ES Hobby Horse as it relates/doesn't to Cadet Programs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however to me it is one of the most important distinctions between CAP and other similar organizations - a genuine operational role in helping communities in times of disaster.

The fact that it is not executed uniformly, or as well as it should be, doesn't change that.

The problem I have with it is that by and large CAP plays ES to the exclusion of throwing hand grenades and earning NRA Marksmanship badges etc, etc.

[Eclipse]

If you ask me, CAP needs to get off the ES Hobby Horse as it relates/doesn't to Cadet Programs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however to me it is one of the most important distinctions between CAP and other similar organizations - a genuine operational role in helping communities in times of disaster.

The fact that it is not executed uniformly, or as well as it should be, doesn't change that.

The problem I have with it is that by and large CAP plays ES to the exclusion of throwing hand grenades and earning NRA Marksmanship badges etc, etc.

Neither of those things has anything to do with CAP, which first and foremost is a benevolent, non-combative organization. It was only recently that USAF Basic Training started to stress ground-combat skills, either. For better or worse, that's not what the USAF is about.

Not sure about the grenades, but there's plenty of shooting going on in CAP, especially at encampments (both simulated and live-fire).

[Major Carrales]

If you ask me, CAP needs to get off the ES Hobby Horse as it relates/doesn't to Cadet Programs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however to me it is one of the most important distinctions between CAP and other similar organizations - a genuine operational role in helping communities in times of disaster.

The fact that it is not executed uniformly, or as well as it should be, doesn't change that.

I agree, Emergency Services provides that "real" thing that many cadets either want or greatly grow because.  For the former of this statements, there are cadets that really want to be of service to their community in times of need.  These are the sorts that grow into the EM managers and maybe even municipal/state ES people and community servants.

For the later, remember that adolescents are always seeking to be taken seriously.  They are at that stage where they are not year adults and no longer children.  Socially, they are in need of doing things with "actual" significance.  The limited role in ES, in COMMS and UDF/GROUND TEAM, makes them feel like they belong to something "worthwhile."  I have had, back in the days when the Corpus Christi Comp Squadron was in slim times and less than operational, cadets leave because they were tired of "marching in squares and in circles" and doing nothing else.

Get this, I imagine that some children turn to gangs because the "regular society" limits them and relegates them to second class...while in a GANG they can rise in that structure and participate in "real" shootings and crime.  That is food for thought on the gang issue and stresses how ACA and CAP can be alternatives to that lifestyle.

Working together is worthy...we can go much further together.  Merging some activities and connecting where goals are similar will  only bring more resources to both units.

[Major Carrales]

If you ask me, CAP needs to get off the ES Hobby Horse as it relates/doesn't to Cadet Programs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however to me it is one of the most important distinctions between CAP and other similar organizations - a genuine operational role in helping communities in times of disaster.

The fact that it is not executed uniformly, or as well as it should be, doesn't change that.

The problem I have with it is that by and large CAP plays ES to the exclusion of throwing hand grenades and earning NRA Marksmanship badges etc, etc.

Pity you have that attitude on the subject. 

When done correctly, ES is a powerful motivator for cadets.  Now, ES means "EMERGENCY SERVICES" not the "EXTRA STUFF," like excessive gear, combat like clothing and RAMBO-ism.  I am pretty sure that this where the issue of things like "bonnie hats" and "berets" comes to a head.

[Flying Pig]

If you ask me, CAP needs to get off the ES Hobby Horse as it relates/doesn't to Cadet Programs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however to me it is one of the most important distinctions between CAP and other similar organizations - a genuine operational role in helping communities in times of disaster.

The fact that it is not executed uniformly, or as well as it should be, doesn't change that.

I agree, Emergency Services provides that "real" thing that many cadets either want or greatly grow because.  For the former of this statements, there are cadets that really want to be of service to their community in times of need.  These are the sorts that grow into the EM managers and maybe even municipal/state ES people and community servants.

For the later, remember that adolescents are always seeking to be taken seriously.  They are at that stage where they are not year adults and no longer children.  Socially, they are in need of doing things with "actual" significance.  The limited role in ES, in COMMS and UDF/GROUND TEAM, makes them feel like they belong to something "worthwhile."  I have had, back in the days when the Corpus Christi Comp Squadron was in slim times and less than operational, cadets leave because they were tired of "marching in squares and in circles" and doing nothing else.

Get this, I imagine that some children turn to gangs because the "regular society" limits them and relegates them to second class...while in a GANG they can rise in that structure and participate in "real" shootings and crime.  That is food for thought on the gang issue and stresses how ACA and CAP can be alternatives to that lifestyle.

Working together is worthy...we can go much further together.  Merging some activities and connecting where goals are similar will  only bring more resources to both units.

Thats got to be one of the most off base analogies I think I have ever read on CAPTalk.  I dont think Ive ever met a gang member who joined because they thought their true potential was being hampered.

[Major Carrales]

Thats got to be one of the most off base analogies I think I have ever read on CAPTalk.  I dont think Ive ever met a gang member who joined because they thought their true potential was being hampered.

I'm thinking you missed the point.  You may look at gang members when their caught, in processing or in the "act."  I deal with them at school...when I can clearly see that the "main stream" is 1) yelling at them, 2) looking at them as criminal  and 3) ignoring them.

A 6th grader that comes from "a broken home and filthy neighborhood" (to quote E. G. Marshall in 12 Angry Men) can go far with family support or if a teacher or pastor gives them something "real."  If they are not "feeling like Americans" or "given something real,"  then they...MAKE IT UP FOR THEMSELVES.

SCHOOL KIDS won't wear school uniforms, but they will dress in gang colors and other acutremants?  Why is that? 

They won't attend school regularly, but they will wander the streets and attend their functions not only regularly...but also punctually.  Why is that? 

They won't "dress out" in PE or do any sport, but they display outstanding phyiscal preformance in running from the POLICE.  Why is that? 

They will take a "beating" to join a GANG, but won't life a finger to support their own efforts in school? Why is that? 

It is because they find belonging and misguided worth in the structure of gangs and no value whatsoever in the established Society.

CAP can help...it can give them focus.  Much more so if there is a "real element" to it.  If ACA developed an operations element...maybe in joint participate with CAP...I don't know, maybe that would enchance them just the more.  I see no problem in qualifying ACA cadets, if this were established at some future time, to augment CAP ground operations.

That is my observation, you may have a different experince as I.  To that I say, so be it. 

[CadetProgramGuy]

Punitive PT just makes you tired, which may be an end in itself, but it does not make you a better cadet or soldier.

Being on the blunt end of punishment PT, I would have to disagree.  All I thought about while in the front leaning rest, is what I have to do to not be here again.

HOWEVER....... I would have to agree that punishment PT has no place in CAP.  We are here to build and mold young americans into responsible citizens, and punishment PT hinders that concept.

[DNall]

A survey (in 2004) indicated that CAP cadets wanted a more military atmosphere (65% vs 30% with 5% undecided). This flies in the face of CPPT and the CAP program.

No, it doesn't, and if you believe it does, you're missing the point.

"more military" does not necessarily mean "more mean".  It means setting specific standards of performance and training, adhering to them across the board, and making few, if any, exceptions when people can't perform to that standard.

Punitive PT just makes you tired, which may be an end in itself, but it does not make you a better cadet or soldier.

That's what more military means to you & I, and in reality is more like the real military, BUT look at that from a cadet perspective and I think you'll find they actually want yelling drill sgts, yada yada. I don't call that mean, nor do I have a problem with punitive PT, which is an effective training tool if used correctly by leaders.

I drop RSP soldiers all the time. Doing pushups doesn't make disciplined professional soldiers. Forcing people to actually listen an pay attention to the lesson you're delivering & be accountable at all times, that does make a difference.

The reason we don't do that in CAP has nothing to do with cadets or usefulness of the practice as a training tool. It has everything to do with the baseline competence level of CAP leaders (cadet & adult of all ages), and the risk mgmt consequences for letting incompetent people misuse good tools to maltrain people.

[Eclipse]

The reason we don't do that in CAP has nothing to do with cadets or usefulness of the practice as a training tool. It has everything to do with the baseline competence level of CAP leaders (cadet & adult of all ages), and the risk mgmt consequences for letting incompetent people misuse good tools to maltrain people.

I'd have to agree, DI's, TI's, & RDC's, etc., all receive specialized training and are closely monitored, we do not have that in CAP.

I think you'd also find that while the caliber of our cadets as a whole would increase, the numbers would drop substantially if we really became bootcamp.

Most kids have no interest or tolerance for that today and their parents would simply allow them to go back to the Px3 and FaceSpace.   

[DNall]

Actually, none of those people receive any training on how/when to use punitive PT as a training tool. No such training exists in the military. Those individuals also work under almost zero supervision.

I am not a DS, and have received no such training, but I do very effectively utilize this tool for training junior enlisted soldiers.

You know what's key there? Neither of us are morons. We were selected for responsibility and underwent intensive training - not training that qualifies us to use this disciplinary tool, but training that weeds out people that suck. In that process we've proven our professionalism, personal discipline, core values, etc... and really just maturity.

On the other hand, CAP lets virtually anyone in the door as long as they aren't a serious criminal. And then makes no distinction between competent qualified leaders and worker bees. Our freakin officer selection and training program is an absolute travesty. For all the good things about CAP, that one fact just about spoils it all. It certainly is the reason we gay up the program by disallowing so many tools out of the toolbox to get the job done.

I can just as effectively train someone with out that one tool, but every option you take away from me makes the job harder, take longer, and cuts down the number of people I can get thru to. As you apply that situation to less qualified/experienced/trained leaders, their capabilities are cut back exponentially more. That has a real effect on the program.


Let me also note that there are a lot of misconceptions about what "bootcamp" is. There is almost no yelling there, at least in the modern Army version. There is a two-week period focused on getting in shape and instilling discipline, etc. After that, it is a fairly lax environment focused on training soldier skills. Full Metal Jacket is a fantasy, and most of what happens in that movie would get a DS thrown off the trail & out of the Army, if not in jail.

And as far as retention... actually, standardized application of a structured program, which may include things like disciplinary PT, would drastically increase retention. It's the standardized application, and conducted to standard aspects that are currently impossible for CAP to achieve. We are our worst enemy.


Bringing this back home to USAC Corps... they are trying to avoid these pitfalls with: a MUCH stronger officer selection and training program; cadet leader training programs that do address how to apply tools like disciplinary PT; and by growing as an org at a pace that allows the spread of their program to the standards they expect. It'll take forever for them to achieve what CAP has, and they may never do it, but they're stronger right from the start for doing it right. In that respect I think CAP can take some major lessons.