What Are Your Thoughts On...

[356cadet]

Should we also have desert BDUs? Also, should we have cloth ranks for the cadets and cadet officers just as the Air Force did (cadets- shoulder     cadet officers- collar)??


Desert Cloth Ranks


Subdued/Gortex Cloth Ranks


Share your thought. (Senior grades, NCO and officer, would be the same as the Air Force)

[NC Hokie]

DCUs...not only no, but NO!

Subdued insignia...I'm not in favor of this and doubt that the AF will allow it but I won't complain if it comes to pass.

[arajca]

Given the rate of promotion for most cadets, you'd destroy the sleeves with in a year. Not to mention, subdued grade insignia would look funny when everything else is full color. The full color insignia is what keep the CAP bdu's visually distinctive from the AF bdu's.

[Hawk200]

No need for subdued. Darker tapes/rank insignia(such as navy blue backgrounds) and not quite so garish patches would be nice, but we have no need for subdued at all. We are not the military, and there is no need for us to have the same, or even similar, insignia.

Desert BDU's are really kind of a moot point with the ABU. It replaces both anyway.

[Cecil DP]

DCUs...not only no, but NO!

Subdued insignia...I'm not in favor of this and doubt that the AF will allow it but I won't complain if it comes to pass.

The reason for subdued insignia is so that shiny stuff doesn't shine or catch on stuff  letting the enemy shoot you. CAP is not a combatant force-ergo no need for subdued insignia.

[SarDragon]

NO!

That stuff is really U-G-L-Y!

[Pumbaa]

Let's see... we wear woodland camo... and then put on bright orange vests...

[♠SARKID♠]

No, negative, nope, nagativo, not gonna happen, bad idea.

[Dad2-4]

I'd go for white on uniform colored backgrounds (dump ultramarine blue). But like already stated, why adopt a desert tan if we'll eventually go to ABU? Cloth rank on the sleeve for cadets? NO. Period. Try getting those sewn on correctly every 60 days or so.

[BrianH76]

I think these issues have been debated here for quite a while.  My thought is that what we've got has worked for quite a while now.  No need to change it. 

[Hawk200]

I think these issues have been debated here for quite a while.  My thought is that what we've got has worked for quite a while now.  No need to change it. 

There's no problem with change as long as it's practical and has a benefit. This idea is neither. It won't necessarily make the uniform look better, and it isn't really practical. Got to be one or the other to do it, and preferably both.

[MIKE]

Where's the flag blue on grey insignia? 

[DC]

DCUs

1. What for?
2. Were switching to ABUs in the near future anyway...

Subdued Rank

1. No need
2. I have enough trouble getting my cadets to put their wing patch in the right place, I don't even want to know what it will be like to get them to place rank on sleeve..
3. Impractical, cadets promote too often.

And, above all, we're switching to the ABU, so this is all academic anyway...

[MIKE]

The DCU cadet officer grade insignia should really be black and not spice brown, even though brown looks better.

[RiverAux]

Sew on rank for "enlisted" cadets would not be a good idea.  We would have parents at the doors of the CAP building with pitchforks if they were expected to do that much sewing.

[BillB]

For almost fifty years, cadets under the grade of C/2Lt, wore sew on stripes, there was never a "big" problem with placement, promotions etc. During WW II cadets wore standard army stripes, followed later by the white on blue.

[IceNine]

^ During those times almost every home had a sewing machine AND someone who knew how to use it.

We live in a very different world where tailors actually MAKE MONEY!!!

[dogboy]

For almost fifty years, cadets under the grade of C/2Lt, wore sew on stripes, there was never a "big" problem with placement, promotions etc. During WW II cadets wore standard army stripes, followed later by the white on blue.

Promotion was much slower then, so Cadets changed rank less often.

Back when I was a Cadet (BWIWAC), rank was related to the Table of Organization. Regardless of one's progress in the achievement system, one could not be promoted until a slot was open in the TOE. 

I don't know whether Cadets have gotten smarter or the Cadet program has been  dumbed down, but in my Squadron, in the three year period I was a Cadet, there was only one CoP (equivalent to Mitchell Award).

[MitchCat]

eh, no.  Can you imagine the cadets if they were told to get a pair (or two) of DCUs, only to be told in a couple (months? years?) that CAP is switching to ABUs, and they need to get two pairs of those? Not only the parents, but cadets as well would end up frustrated, especially if the cadets are providing everything for CAP themselves (nearly my whole squadron).  As for sewing on the shoulder insignia, not a good idea.  At all.  Too difficult to actually get it on strait, and even more difficult to motivate cadets to go and fix crooked insignia.  Basically, ditto on all the other posts...

[356cadet]

I just brought this up for one of my cadets. Personally, I disagree with it, simply because cloth stripes are for the senior NCOs. Period. But, if we did have the DCU's I wouldn't complain, since my squadron is in the desert  .

[356cadet]

Considering NHQ passes the ACU in about 2014.

[DC]

Considering NHQ passes the ACU in about 2014.

How does that affect the idea of transitioning to DCUs? Even if, God forbid, it we don't get the ABU before 2014, I don't see DCUs being any easier to get ahold of than BDUs, and it would be a little strange for the 85% that doesn't live in or near a desert...

[stratoflyer]

I'd be the first at complaining about the aesthetics of the BDU's. But thinking rationally, we really have no need for the subdued stuff. Remember that the Air Force has a say in our uniforms. Besides, who really cares how it looks as long as it has a professional look to it and is worn correctly. Our uniforms are not as necessary to our missions as the military's.

However, it'd be real cool if we did have subdues insignias!

[MIKE]

Considering NHQ passes the ACU in about 2014.

ABU Airman Battle Uniform, not Army Combat Uniform.

Make up a plate of flag blue on gray.  If you can, how about some tapes that are flag blue on ABU pattern?

[RiverAux]

But thinking rationally, we really have no need for the subdued stuff.

On the other hand, there is no rational reason for the bright name tapes either.  A subdued name tape that says Civil Air Patrol separates us just as much from the Air Force as does subdued name tapes that separate the Air Force from the Army from the Marines.  Even more so when the use of Civil Air Patrol doesn't actually imply any sort of link to the Air Force in the first place. 

That being the case, it is a strictly esthetic choice and that being the case, I prefer several of the suggestions made here over the year for a darker background to the tapes, etc. but still with white letters. 

[356cadet]

Considering NHQ passes the ACU in about 2014.

ABU Airman Battle Uniform, not Army Combat Uniform.

Make up a plate of flag blue on gray.  If you can, how about some tapes that are flag blue on ABU pattern?

Sorry, was thinking of Airman Combat Uniform (duiy!). I'll go ahead and render up some ABU cloth ranks, since I've gotten the request a couple of times before... I believe.

[Jolt]

The thing I like about our BDUs (over subdued insignia of any kind) is that I can easily read it.  I always have to squint when I see someone with subdued patches and I've never been able to read them until I'm three feet away.

Besides, it would just give cadets more of a reason to miss salutes!

[smj58501]

Let's see... we wear woodland camo... and then put on bright orange vests...

Always has been an interesting paradox

[DC]

The thing I like about our BDUs (over subdued insignia of any kind) is that I can easily read it.  I always have to squint when I see someone with subdued patches and I've never been able to read them until I'm three feet away.

Besides, it would just give cadets more of a reason to miss salutes!

There is no reason, with normal or properly corrected vision, that you should not be able to tell the difference between an officer and an Airman or NCO from saluting distance. You may not be able to tell from across a large room, but why would you need to?

Subdued tapes and insignia would be nice, will we get them? Not likely, unless we do some serious bridge mending with the Air Force, and that is not going to happen overnight. The best we can realistically hope for is something slightly less garish than ultramarine and white, maybe gray and navy, or navy and white, or something like that.

[DNall]

Just to be clear here, something like 1% of the AF has anything like a ground combat job. Even the Army is not remotely made up of ground combat folks. All military services are majority support troops, who have no direct practical need of cammo. Even considering the people that do engage in direct ground combat, they aren't doing that but a very tiny percentage of the time when deployed, and are not deployed most of the time.

My point is the ABU/ACU/BDU/etc are all general utility uniforms. None of them are very good camo, and outside of wearing an orange jumpsuit to combat I'd argue that camo uniforms are pretty meaningless in an urban environment anyway.

The whole reason everyone in the military (and CAP too) wears combat utility uniforms is to share solidarity with the deployed combat force - ie even though you're sweeping the floor in Kansas it in some way effects combat ops in Iraq, or by doing these SaR missions w/ a Cessna we save the AF money that they turn around into better training/equip/etc that makes them stronger/better. Now, maybe in some ways there is some little element of truth in some of those connections, and maybe there isn't. The point is less about the actual support than the psychological solidarity that contributes to motivating people to do their jobs well.

[flyerthom]

Let's see... we wear woodland camo... and then put on bright orange vests...

That's so you can git yer deer while yer out der:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kb9yhhflmvY

[JayT]

But thinking rationally, we really have no need for the subdued stuff.

On the other hand, there is no rational reason for the bright name tapes either.  A subdued name tape that says Civil Air Patrol separates us just as much from the Air Force as does subdued name tapes that separate the Air Force from the Army from the Marines.  Even more so when the use of Civil Air Patrol doesn't actually imply any sort of link to the Air Force in the first place. 

That being the case, it is a strictly esthetic choice and that being the case, I prefer several of the suggestions made here over the year for a darker background to the tapes, etc. but still with white letters. 

No, it doesn't.

[hatentx]

Just to be clear here, something like 1% of the AF has anything like a ground combat job. Even the Army is not remotely made up of ground combat folks. All military services are majority support troops, who have no direct practical need of cammo. Even considering the people that do engage in direct ground combat, they aren't doing that but a very tiny percentage of the time when deployed, and are not deployed most of the time.

My point is the ABU/ACU/BDU/etc are all general utility uniforms. None of them are very good camo, and outside of wearing an orange jumpsuit to combat I'd argue that camo uniforms are pretty meaningless in an urban environment anyway.

The whole reason everyone in the military (and CAP too) wears combat utility uniforms is to share solidarity with the deployed combat force - ie even though you're sweeping the floor in Kansas it in some way effects combat ops in Iraq, or by doing these SaR missions w/ a Cessna we save the AF money that they turn around into better training/equip/etc that makes them stronger/better. Now, maybe in some ways there is some little element of truth in some of those connections, and maybe there isn't. The point is less about the actual support than the psychological solidarity that contributes to motivating people to do their jobs well.

I see your point only slightly.  Army guys I can speak for in Iraq and I would venture to say 95% to 99% of Army personal were in some form or way involved in a combat.  It may actually be on the ground patrolling or on a guard tower.  A good number or Army personnel are in a position where they may be called off the FOB or have to convoy and may need to dismount and camouflage is important more so than some guy sweeping a hanger in Kansas. 

Now I can see the argument about the quality of camouflage patterns.  The ACU do work.  They are not designed to be the best at one but world well in all.  I have noticed having a hard time picking out a guy in ACU against a tree line while driving.  In the war we fight I would rather have something that is adaptable which I believe the ACU do the best job possible with what is and has been issued.

[stratoflyer]

I agree with the comment that wearing the same uniform as those in the field builds solidarity. I read somewhere not to long ago about Air Force personnel working in a civilian setting being ordered to wear BDU's so that they don't forget their work directly affects those in the field. (I think they were doing logistics work stateside in a regular office building.)

[JayT]

I agree with the comment that wearing the same uniform as those in the field builds solidarity. I read somewhere not to long ago about Air Force personnel working in a civilian setting being ordered to wear BDU's so that they don't forget their work directly affects those in the field. (I think they were doing logistics work stateside in a regular office building.)

So a twelve year old cadet has solidarity with an Airmen deployed downrange?

If what a person is wearing reminds them to do their job better, then you need new people.

[hatentx]

I agree with the comment that wearing the same uniform as those in the field builds solidarity. I read somewhere not to long ago about Air Force personnel working in a civilian setting being ordered to wear BDU's so that they don't forget their work directly affects those in the field. (I think they were doing logistics work stateside in a regular office building.)

So a twelve year old cadet has solidarity with an Airmen deployed downrange?

If what a person is wearing reminds them to do their job better, then you need new people.

That is where I am thinking as well.  I wear the uniform everyday and the last thing I think about while wearing a uniform is being downrange.  However training and taking experiences learned from the field allows me to think about being downrange. 

Does a uniform promote an environment of team building and a scene of belonging...yeah I would agree and saw yes but that is as far as I could stretch that argument.

[stratoflyer]

When I wear my uniform, yes, I do think an extra thought about the men and women serving in the armed forces. And so do the people in the street when they see me or others in uniform.

And when I put on my uniform to go flying, I know that when that uniform is on, I am in a different mindset--more professional, more calculating, and more focused.

Ever need to go to the store but you're already in PJ's? Is it that you're just lazy or that your mindset is focused on 'sleep'. It's called conditioning, not a need for new people.

And yes, a 12 year old should wear his uniform thinking about these things.

[Hookedonlemons]

Cadet desert uniforms...?
How many cadets in the whole organization operate or even STEP FOOT into a desert enviornment compared to those who don't even SEE desert?

[JayT]

When I wear my uniform, yes, I do think an extra thought about the men and women serving in the armed forces. And so do the people in the street when they see me or others in uniform.

And when I put on my uniform to go flying, I know that when that uniform is on, I am in a different mindset--more professional, more calculating, and more focused.

Ever need to go to the store but you're already in PJ's? Is it that you're just lazy or that your mindset is focused on 'sleep'. It's called conditioning, not a need for new people.

And yes, a 12 year old should wear his uniform thinking about these things.

Okay, I'll buy part of that.

One of my partners at work is an inactive Marine Lance Corporal. While most guys wear low cut EMT 'clunker' boots, he wear's high cut boots because 'feeling the leather on my ankle reminds me I'm at work.

Howeber, a twelve you old CAP cadet, or a CAP member in general, does not need to be reminded through the wear of BDU's that there's a war on. It's just not needed.

[sawgunner7]

Cadet desert uniforms...?
How many cadets in the whole organization operate or even STEP FOOT into a desert enviornment compared to those who don't even SEE desert?

Just a thought that popped into my head while reading this thread... A good reason for DCU(s) Might be the simple fact NOT that our mission requires them. But maybe that we are voulenteer... Usually Most Squadrons are under funded or don't have enough of the right size uniforms to give out. Or just don't have any. And most parents until they see there kids are hooked on CAP and that its not just a couple week phase. arent going to buy anything other that second hand uniforms if anything. And in some cases I have seen that it is easier to come across DCUs. So maybe it could open up a window of more adaptability. And be one more way for a cadet to get there hands on a set of uniforms? Anyone think of this as a good idea

[DC]

Cadet desert uniforms...?
How many cadets in the whole organization operate or even STEP FOOT into a desert enviornment compared to those who don't even SEE desert?

Just a thought that popped into my head while reading this thread... A good reason for DCU(s) Might be the simple fact NOT that our mission requires them. But maybe that we are voulenteer... Usually Most Squadrons are under funded or don't have enough of the right size uniforms to give out. Or just don't have any. And most parents until they see there kids are hooked on CAP and that its not just a couple week phase. arent going to buy anything other that second hand uniforms if anything. And in some cases I have seen that it is easier to come across DCUs. So maybe it could open up a window of more adaptability. And be one more way for a cadet to get there hands on a set of uniforms? Anyone think of this as a good idea

NO. I can see it now.. People who don't live anywhere near a desert getting DCUs because they are 'cool'. Cadets and/or parents getting the old chocolate chip pattern from Desert Storm instead of DCUs. The next incarnation of the CAP Ranger  - "Desert Patrol". Not to mention the fact that it will further reduce the uniformity of CAP as an organization. There needs to be ONE USAF style and ONE CAP Corporate style combination for each 'type' of uniform. Woodland BDUs (and ABUs in the near future) and BBDUs as field uniforms.

And if you really think about it, what practical advantage would a desert uniform give to CAP in the desert environment? Make Ground Teams harder to see?

[jimmydeanno]

The next incarnation of the CAP Ranger  - "Desert Patrol".

USCAPFL:  United States Civil Air Patrol Foreign Legion

[DC]

The next incarnation of the CAP Ranger  - "Desert Patrol".

USCAPFL:  United States Civil Air Patrol Foreign Legion

Don't let HWSRN hear that....

[356cadet]

Cadet desert uniforms...?
How many cadets in the whole organization operate or even STEP FOOT into a desert enviornment compared to those who don't even SEE desert?

And vice-versa with those that have never stepped-foot on, or seen, a forest... think of that (I'm aware that the US is mostly forest, don't get me wrong, I'm just implying).

[DC]

Cadet desert uniforms...?
How many cadets in the whole organization operate or even STEP FOOT into a desert enviornment compared to those who don't even SEE desert?

And vice-versa with those that have never stepped-foot on, or seen, a forest... think of that (I'm aware that the US is mostly forest, don't get me wrong, I'm just implying).

CAP wears BDUs because the Air Force wears BDUs, not to camouflage ourselves in our respective environments.

But, if I must



By this map, there are four states with desert in them, meaning that well over 90% of the US is temperate. Majority rules.

[hatentx]

the BDU was used because there was no DCU when it was designed.  So the BDU was the only uniform worn after the fatigues.  the DCU were designed when then need for them came.  But before we were in the middle east the last time I cant think of us fighting in the desert was in WWII against Rommel's Africa Corp.  I may be wrong but that is the last time I can think of Between the Persian Gulf.  So the wear of the BDU has nothing to do with climate although happens to fit but more to the ease of not changing uniforms after the development of the chocolate chip.

[IceNine]

But before we were in the middle east the last time I cant think of us fighting in the desert was in WWII against Rommel's Africa Corp

The air force may have been in the desert, CAP wasn't.  WE don't need DCU's.

The only reasons that everyone want's ABU's is the fact that the woodland will eventually become unavailable.  And we like to have a link to our parent organization by wearing their uniform's, even with mod's

[Rotorhead]

I just brought this up for one of my cadets. Personally, I disagree with it, simply because cloth stripes are for the senior NCOs. Period. But, if we did have the DCU's I wouldn't complain, since my squadron is in the desert  .

Why would you want to make it harder for your people to be seen?

That's what camo is for--to help hide your position.

Using desert camo in the desert would be fine if you were fighting, but since your goal should be to be visible, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[356cadet]

^ Eh. Makes sense.

It's wierd though, because BDUs are referred to as camo. The last time I looked up camouflage, the definiton said "concealment by disguise or protective coloring" (thefreedictionary.com).

So, if the cadets, or we I should say, are wearing BDUs, especially in the temperate parts, or 90% as noted above, then aren't we "hiding" ourselves?

[SarDragon]

And that exact point has been made at least a gazillion times in as many uniform related posts. 

[356cadet]

^ Yeah.

However, I've never seen anyone reply to that statement. Any thoughts why?

[arajca]

And that exact point has been made at least a gazillion times in as many uniform related posts. 

Only a gazillion? You ran out of fingers adn toes, didn't you. :angel:

Mike, you're up...

[Pylon]

Besides all the well-argued "NO!" arguments previous to my post, CAP's uniform closet is already unweildy and needs pairing down - not new additions.   When you walk into a room at a CAP activity, it usually looks like a NATO conference: Eight different uniforms, eleven different types of headgear or lack thereof, and enough varying insignia to make Vanguard rich.  Frankly, 90% of the time, any given group of CAP members looks anything but "uniform".

CAP will not be adding DCUs, cloth grade chevrons for C/Amn-C/CMSgt or any subdued grade insignia even on the list of items that will be considered at this time.  Just believe me on that one.    

What are we considering?  Finding ways to unify the varying styles of all our rank insignia across different uniform types, reducing our 6+ nametags to one or two, making placement rules the same across corporate and AF-style uniforms and overall making our uniforms uniform.

[DC]

Besides all the well-argued "NO!" arguments previous to my post, CAP's uniform closet is already unweildy and needs pairing down - not new additions.   When you walk into a room at a CAP activity, it usually looks like a NATO conference: Eight different uniforms, eleven different types of headgear or lack thereof, and enough varying insignia to make Vanguard rich.  Frankly, 90% of the time, any given group of CAP members looks anything but "uniform".

CAP will not be adding DCUs, cloth grade chevrons for C/Amn-C/CMSgt or any subdued grade insignia even on the list of items that will be considered at this time.  Just believe me on that one.    

What are we considering?  Finding ways to unify the varying styles of all our rank insignia across different uniform types, reducing our 6+ nametags to one or two, making placement rules the same across corporate and AF-style uniforms and overall making our uniforms uniform.

:clap:

[stratoflyer]

I didn't believe 'em when they told me CAP can get real passionate about uniforms....