Deny Membership

[mikeylikey]

^ Wow....his speech and thought tend to wander.  My speech and thought tend to wonder when I am exhausted and forced past my physical and mental limits.  Maybe this guy has a mental disability.  Perhaps that was the case, he was forced out years ago because someone was a jackass.

Have you asked the guy why he walks around town in a CAP uniform?  What CAP uniform?

[NavLT]

Perhaps he does have one or more disabilities, perhaps they inhibit his ability to perform as a member. This program can probably support some disabilities, but people who cannot talk in public or to cadets should be a concern.  I would say that a deaf person who "cannot talk to" could be fixed with an interpereter but someone who bables and speaks in appropriately might go beyond acceptable.

I don't know if this is the best place to figure out the laundry list for what can work and what cannot.  I would bet any company in the world would tell a public affiars want to be, that has a mental disability that has them shout out inappropriate phrases mid speach that this is not the line of work for them.

And just so I don't get painted as someone against handicaps. I worked for 2 years with a deaf intelligence officer at the pentagon and was proud to serve under the first Ops Section chief in a wheel chair in the VASAR system.

The Blues Uniform with Garrison Cap. Sometimes with Flight Jacket.  And no I don't ask why someone wears the uniform in an inappropriate way/place. 

[SM-MADDOG]

A person could have a case if discrimination was made. 5 lawsuits I read some where are currently in court against the Civil Air Patrol. I read one case where 5 people filed a suit against CAP and the court ordered CAP to pay each of them 123,000. Just because CAP is part of the Air Force (Mil) dont mean a person cant file a suit. Im a member of the NRA, the United States Marines went after a lady who was a Lt at the time after she defended her self against a criminal attack by a fellow Marine who broke into her house on base with a knife, this criminal tried to kill her and the Lt's child, she used self defense with her 9mm. She left the Marines however a yr later some high ranking boy decides he wants charges filed against her even after the marine mil police and local police cleared her a yr ago. We filed a suit and we beat the United States Marine Corp in federal court, she was awarded a pile of money. They did wrong. If in a case someone does wrong no matter who they are, they deserve to catch a case in court and lose. In terms dont violate peoples rights.

If they have "valid" evidence and reasons to keep a person out thats good, but if they dont and it proves they did wrong then if they catch a case in the court of law so be it. Our country is great Liberty & JUSTICE for ALL.       

Let the guy apply, NHQ will run the fingerprint check, and look through their past records.  Just because he is "scary" is not reason to deny membership.

And all of those that say convene a membership committee for review.....the big question is.....do you convene a committee for every new prospective member?  If the answer is NO.....can you say DISCRIMINATION based on perception, not fact.  He can then sue.

Let him sue, but he's got no case.  CAP's entire membership is at the discretion and pleasure of commanders up the entire chain.  We are not, by design, an inclusive organization.  As long as the discrimination is not based on age, sex, or ethnicity, there is no issue.

NHQ depends on us as commanders to do the first round of weeding.  All NHQ ever knows about a member is whether he was convicted of anything which would bar him from being a member at the most basic level, they never get a "sense" of who the member is, or whether he would be right for CAP (or vice-versa).

If we have a bad feeling about someone, whatever the reason, we don't have to invite them to join the unit.  We have a responsibility to the existing members and the organization to keep questionable people out.

[Eclipse]

CAP gets sued all the time, so does the US government, the military, and most major corporations, such are the times in which we live, where embarrassment of a lack of personal responsibility no longer trumps the percentage-chasing lawyers.

In any case involving membership discrimination, they would be suing the corporation, not the USAF (though the USAF is likely to be initially enjoined because of deep pockets).

The legal grounds for discrimination in this country are ethnicity, physical disability, and gender.  "Being creepy" is a subjective determination and not protected by law. (In some states and jurisdiction there may also be protection for sexual preference, but I don't think that exists at the federal level yet).

As commanders it is our responsibility to protect the organization and the membership.

[SM-MADDOG]

I agree lawyers do go after stuff they prolly shouldnt, however I think if something wrong has been done alot of times thats the only way things get changed. Me saying they got sued im just saying that it can and does happen. If the did something in the cases i read about that was wrong then they deserved to pay money out. But again im not one that thinks everyone should file a law suit because your hand itched today and your employer caused your hand to itch lol.

Naming the Marine Corp case i talked about before they really done that Lt wrong. But it wasnt the Marine Corp that did it to her it was a high ranking Marine Corp Officer, but hes a rep of the Marines so the Marines were the one sued. It was also proven in court that this female Lt field a complaint with the Marines against this other Marine anjd she asked for a order for him to stay away from her. She had prior issues with him. The court ruled that the Marines didnt protect her the way they should have. Then when that raning officer pressed for charges against her for defending her self and child she being a NRA member and our NRA filed a federal law suit I think it was. She deserved the money she got. She was a great Marine and had been a Marine for yrs, yet she had an injustice done to her that ended her Marine career all because she chose to survive against a criminal.

But for the most part alot of people sue for some silly things dont they lol.

[Cherokeepilot]

Folks........
From our squadron we regularly deny or better yet we discourage application for membership from individuals who do not have something to add to the capability of the squadron senior members.  If an individual isn't a pilot or used to be a pilot or former military with a background in emergency services or a certified educator or a parent of a cadet we look very closely at what that individual can add to the squadron. 

The Civil Air Patrol is not an initial/basic training  entry for seniors to emergency services.  An Individual simply must have more than availability and a desire to serve the community.  Our squadron is located in the middle of nowhere at the intersection of vast and empty.  Our group of squadrons is one of the geographically largest in the country with a senior membership of less than a hundred.   The majority of our squadron are active USAF members with half or better on deployment.  Simply put, we need folks who can be counted upon  for emergency services without a great deal of training except for the CAP paperchase.

There is the additional problem of folks who have problems involving minors.  We are finding a number of folks who would be attractive potential DOD service members who have had adjudications involving minors and/or alcohol.  I know it seems odd that a person could be active service and not be able to pass a CAP background check, but it does happen.  Now we ask the questions as the part of the information process to save the individual the embarrassment of being turned down.

Additionally, there are a number of folks who simply don't work or play well with others.  Some of these folks are a bit scary in their approach to everyone.  Since our squadron works with local emergency services, we need folks who know how to keep our place in the community.  Our place in the grand scheme of emergency services to the community and to the nation is changing because of the development of search and rescue services as a for profit corporate contractor to various governmental agencies including DHS & FEMA.........but that is a debate for another day.

73s

[Short Field]

An Individual simply must have more than availability and a desire to serve the community. 

Sure wish you were close enough to send us those people.

Which squadron are you in by the way?

[Pumbaa]

If an individual isn't a pilot or used to be a pilot or former military with a background in emergency services or a certified educator or a parent of a cadet we look very closely at what that individual can add to the squadron.

Now don't get me started.  So I would be one of those you would have to look closely at then.  Well a big &%*^*$&  to you then.  Show me where CAP senior members are supposed to be pilots/ former military, etc...

It *IS* desire to serve and be a part of CAP, that is the member we are looking for.  Why does CAP have all these training req's.  Why is there a senior member education path? Because CAP is open to EVERYBODY! 

If that is not the most elitist trash I have heard in CAP, I don't know what is.. we'll besides the uniform threads...

[Eclipse]

I'll admit, the pilot thing caught me as well, but on a re-read the statements aren't unreasonable.

"Looking closely" doesn't equal a "closed door".

I ask direct questions, too.  If a unit only has a flying program for ES (which is a problem), and this member comes in gung-ho with no relate-able experience whatsoever talking about all he's going to "teach the cadets about SAR", I'd be asking questions as well.

Rarely do the creepy ones come in tight and right with no visible baggage.  Generally by the 3rd or 4th sentence you can start to get an idea where they are coming from, especially if they are too excited about joining an organization the know nothing about, and/or were a walk-in with no reference.

Too many units suffer from "warm body syndrome" only to pay for it later.

Ask questions, set proper expectations on both sides, and there will be less 1st-year turnover.

[NavLT]

It *IS* desire to serve and be a part of CAP, that is the member we are looking for.  Why does CAP have all these training req's.  Why is there a senior member education path? Because CAP is open to EVERYBODY! 

I guess it is the capability to serve that is in question; I would hope that every unit commander uses sound judgement and keeps the missions of the organization  in mind when they make membership decisions.  Open door does not mean "Y'all come". As to the training regs and senior member training path, I would ask why national has been lately pointing out the large # of members that don't go past level 1 but still are members for 10 to 15 years....... and according to the safety directorate tend to be the ones who dent airplanes.


Too many units suffer from "warm body syndrome" only to pay for it later.

I cannot agree more! The program as it was designed, (and I don't pretend that it fits the mold at the unit level) has no member be assigned to anything until they get a tech rating so they.....actually know something about CAP.  But Unit commanders are in a position many times where the warm body becomes the ...ES officer the day they join and they will "learn it as they go".  I cannot think of a more undesireable position to be in to be a newbie, given an important job, and being told every day...."thats ok, you'll learn".