COS Uniform

[Smokey]

Anyone notice the uniform worn today by COS T. Michael "Buzz" Mosley at his retirement ceremony??

[Tubacap]

interesting.   I like it.

[CASH172]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/projects/flash/2007_03_16_afuniforms/

[Al Sayre]

^^^  That's interesting, look at the new male uniform, the major is wearing a coat with what appears to be flag officer sleeve braid...

[Hawk200]

^^^  That's interesting, look at the new male uniform, the major is wearing a coat with what appears to be flag officer sleeve braid...

That's the Honor Guard uniform. If you look at the airmen in the background, they're wearing the same thing.

[Dad2-4]

http://www.airforcetimes.com/projects/flash/2007_03_16_afuniforms/

Except the general has no belt, which is fine IMHO. I think his coat looks good.

[afgeo4]

The "Major" is a LtCol, the CC of USAF Honor Guard.

[Al Sayre]

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate...

I was talking about the Major in the new uniform on the uniforms website in the post immediately above mine ( http://www.airforcetimes.com/projects/flash/2007_03_16_afuniforms/ )

[Smokey]

Seems to me the style of the new service coat is very similiar to the style of the one we (and the AF) wore just before the current one.

I like it without the belt.......the belt , well it just doesn't work, is cumbersome and makes those who are "round" look much more "round."

[Flying Pig]

I like the model without the belt.  When you have a belt, you need to have it tailored tight.

When it comes to belts and dress blues, there can be only one!

[Hawk200]

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate...

I was talking about the Major in the new uniform on the uniforms website in the post immediately above mine ( http://www.airforcetimes.com/projects/flash/2007_03_16_afuniforms/ )

I see what you're saying. That is rather unusual.

[RickFranz]

I looks like we have come full circle from where Gen McPeak took us to with the 3 button suit :clap:

Now that looks like a Uniform Jacket!

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think you are right about the AF times 360 showing the wrong sleeve braid.  Good eye!

[lordmonar]

I think they were going to widen the braid on the new uniform.....

Just one more thing that they decided to nex, by looking at Mosley's uniform.

[MIKE]

I like the cloth self-belt version better.

[PHall]

The General was one of the "wear testers" of the new Service Dress coat.
So what he was wearing may not be the final product.

[Eclipse]

When it comes to belts and dress blues reds, there can be only one!

I agree:

[JohnKachenmeister]

I just watched an old Robert Mitchum movie, "The Hunters" and the uniform looks identical.  I like it!  When are we getting it?

[Eclipse]

You can see it in "I Dream Of Jeannie", too.   

[afgeo4]

I hate to be blunt, but isn't it practically the old USAF service dress just in a different shade and with slightly different tailoring? And by "the old" I mean the one our cadets are still authorized to wear, pre-McPeak one.

[AlphaSigOU]

I hate to be blunt, but isn't it practically the old USAF service dress just in a different shade and with slightly different tailoring? And by "the old" I mean the one our cadets are still authorized to wear, pre-McPeak one.

About the only major difference between what Gen Moseley wore and the old-style uniform is the style of the pocket flaps (the bottom ones are non-functional) and the Hap Arnold buttons. Real old school USAF service dress (old shade 1084) had lower patch pockets.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think the scallop of the pocket flaps is slightly more dramatic on the new uniform, too.

But essentially, George is right.  This is the old 1950's-1960's uniform.   

[RiverAux]

Maybe its how he is standing, but it looks pretty rumpled and like it doesn't fit very well. 

[shorning]

Maybe its how he is standing, but it looks pretty rumpled and like it doesn't fit very well. 

Glass half empty, eh?  Looks like a custom fit in the PiR photo. 

[MIKE]

WRT the CoS pics: It must be a pain to put those individual stars on the epaulets as opposed to using the connected ones.

[shorning]

WRT the CoS pics: It must be a pain to put those individual stars on the epaulets as opposed to using the connected ones.

That's what his enlisted aide is for.  Seriously.

[PhoenixRisen]

WRT the CoS pics: It must be a pain to put those individual stars on the epaulets as opposed to using the connected ones.

May be a pain in the arse to do, but IMO, it looks [darn] sharp!  I've never been a fan of the connected stars.

[Tubacap]

^the other difference, which I appreciate as a conductor, are the gussets in the back allowing for more freedome of movement.  I don't conduct much in CAP, but every now and then we do use a band, and it is hard as heck to conduct in service dress.

[Smokey]

WRT the CoS pics: It must be a pain to put those individual stars on the epaulets as opposed to using the connected ones.

Well, I don't think he is changing the stars all that often on his service dress.   I wish I had such issues!!!

[mikeylikey]

Ya....I don't think I am that big of fan of the new uniform.  For starters, I don't like where the "US" cutouts are sitting.  I don't like the lapel, and the pockets don't look right. 

PLUS.....where is his belt??

[stratoflyer]

Definitely he should be wearing a belt according to the new uniform specs. Bu I suppose that as far as the belt is concerned, this uniform is a huge improvement over the current coat. This is definitely what CAP should be wearing as well, and will someone please get rid of the TPU coat and uniform?!?

BTW, the monster maroon worn by Kirk kicks major tail!

[Major Carrales]

Definitely he should be wearing a belt according to the new uniform specs. Bu I suppose that as far as the belt is concerned, this uniform is a huge improvement over the current coat. This is definitely what CAP should be wearing as well, and will someone please get rid of the TPU coat and uniform?!?

BTW, the monster maroon worn by Kirk kicks major tail!

The Maroon tunic of Star Trek:WOK was supposed to be, designed by Mr Robert Fletcher, the most "uniform" like costume ever worn in a feature film. A far cry from the PJ's of the original series (which really are my favorite) and the 70s-era Monstrosities of the First Star Trek Feature film.

[Smithsonia]

Excuse me George... are you speaking of the Air Force uniforms worn by Larry Hagman? Or that spicy one worn by Jeannie? If it's Jeannie's outfit... you got 39-1 problems!
With regards; ED OBRIEN

[ColonelJack]

and will someone please get rid of the TPU coat and uniform?!?

What would you have the people who don't meet AF guidelines wear, then?  I seriously doubt that the Corporate Service Uuniform (its proper name) is going anywhere any time soon, since many members have invested major coin in one and even Gen. Courter wears hers quite often.  It's not a bad uniform at all!

BTW, the monster maroon worn by Kirk kicks major tail!

Here we agree ... the best ST uniform ever!

Jack

[ColonelJack]

Excuse me George... are you speaking of the Air Force uniforms worn by Larry Hagman? Or that spicy one worn by Jeannie? If it's Jeannie's outfit... you got 39-1 problems!
With regards; ED OBRIEN

Unless George looks a LOT like Barbara Eden, 39-1 problems are the LEAST of his worries in Jeannie's spicy outfit!

Jack

[Cecil DP]

WRT the CoS pics: It must be a pain to put those individual stars on the epaulets as opposed to using the connected ones.

He'll never have to do it again!

[Flying Pig]

Besides.....most Generals have aides who do that stuff for them.

What's interesting is that we are coming to an end of an era.  VERY rarely do you see a General or E-9 anymore with any medals related to Vietnam.  I remember when I was in, all of the higher ups still wore Vietnam related ribbons.

[Hawk200]

Definitely he should be wearing a belt according to the new uniform specs.

It's a test uniform, there are no "specs" on it. Besides, he's a four star general, they can (and do) modify uniforms for themselves.

[AlphaSigOU]

Besides.....most Generals have aides who do that stuff for them.

What's interesting is that we are coming to an end of an era.  VERY rarely do you see a General or E-9 anymore with any medals related to Vietnam.  I remember when I was in, all of the higher ups still wore Vietnam related ribbons.

Most of the Vietnam-era vets hit their 30-year retirement ceiling around 2005; the few remaining are generals and chief master sergeants/master chiefs/master gunnys/command sergeant majors allowed to serve over 30 years.

If - theoretically - the Iraq/Afghanistan war ended in 2009/10, the last of those who served during that time will be hitting top retirement around 2021-2030 time frame. Gulf War I vets start hitting minimum retirement age in 2010.

[JohnKachenmeister]

^ Time marches on.  I can't stay in step.

[stratoflyer]

Glad to see some star trek folks out here!

Regarding the Corporate Service Uniform (TPU), there was plenty to wear already. Why members wasted their money on that beats me! They have that blazer combo, or maybe they should have developed something to suit the grey uniform, just adding a service coat and standardizing the pants.

This may be a bit far fetched, but IMHO I think people like the TPU because of the Air Force epaulets, which I think is heretical. Lets not forget the maroon epaulet days and why they were mandated! 

If national keeps this up, there'll be a different uniform for each week of the year. Come on folks, look uniformed, not like members of different branches of the same organization.

I am very critical about the recent uniform changes that have occurred!

So what will happen when it's CAP's turn to get this uniform that the general wore, and the ABU's? Granted it'll be YEARS, but still, what then? Will things be phased out? Or will national keep this pattern and the Air Force will have to step in, again?

[Cecil DP]

Besides.....most Generals have aides who do that stuff for them.

What's interesting is that we are coming to an end of an era.  VERY rarely do you see a General or E-9 anymore with any medals related to Vietnam.  I remember when I was in, all of the higher ups still wore Vietnam related ribbons.

I don't see any Vietnam medals and his official biography says he was assigned stateside during the war.

[Major Carrales]

I am affraid that I cannot support the removal of the Corporate Service Uniform, Chuck is right...if the last Texas Wing Conference is any indication, lots of CAP Officers have that service coat. 

I cannot and will not support the removal of an expense so many have made.  It was an approved uniform and still is.  While I will most likely never buy one, it has taken on a popular stance among a lot many CAP folks.

Unless policies radically change on the USAF side as well as the CAP side, that uniform is here to stay.

[ColonelJack]

I am affraid that I cannot support the removal of the Corporate Service Uniform, Chuck is right...if the last Texas Wing Conference is any indication, lots of CAP Officers have that service coat.

......Chuck?  Who the heck's Chuck?   

I cannot and will not support the removal of an expense so many have made.  It was an approved uniform and still is.  While I will most likely never buy one, it has taken on a popular stance among a lot many CAP folks.

It has, because -- in spite of its origins -- it is a professional-looking uniform on most members, and on those few where it doesn't work, no uniform would.  I agree with you, Doug -- er, Sparky.     I can't support the elimiantion of something so many have spent so much on.

Jack

[Major Carrales]

......Chuck?  Who the heck's Chuck?   

Capt Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP

Capt Corway is a sporter, and supporter, of the new service coat.

I'm affraid I will have to Chuckle a bit... I think you intercepted by pass to Capt Corway.

And thus, in the ususal Carralesian manner...

Hi, Jack...what's up, Chuck?

[JohnKachenmeister]

I am affraid that I cannot support the removal of the Corporate Service Uniform, Chuck is right...if the last Texas Wing Conference is any indication, lots of CAP Officers have that service coat.

......Chuck?  Who the heck's Chuck?   

I cannot and will not support the removal of an expense so many have made.  It was an approved uniform and still is.  While I will most likely never buy one, it has taken on a popular stance among a lot many CAP folks.

It has, because -- in spite of its origins -- it is a professional-looking uniform on most members, and on those few where it doesn't work, no uniform would.  I agree with you, Doug -- er, Sparky.     I can't support the elimiantion of something so many have spent so much on.

Jack

What about all the guys who spent money on the 3-button McPeak uniform?  if we are gonna change uniforms to match the AF (Which I don't think we'll have a choice on) then SOMEBODY's gotta pay!

[Major Carrales]

I am affraid that I cannot support the removal of the Corporate Service Uniform, Chuck is right...if the last Texas Wing Conference is any indication, lots of CAP Officers have that service coat.

......Chuck?  Who the heck's Chuck?   

I cannot and will not support the removal of an expense so many have made.  It was an approved uniform and still is.  While I will most likely never buy one, it has taken on a popular stance among a lot many CAP folks.

It has, because -- in spite of its origins -- it is a professional-looking uniform on most members, and on those few where it doesn't work, no uniform would.  I agree with you, Doug -- er, Sparky.     I can't support the elimiantion of something so many have spent so much on.

Jack

What about all the guys who spent money on the 3-button McPeak uniform?  if we are gonna change uniforms to match the AF (Which I don't think we'll have a choice on) then SOMEBODY's gotta pay!

Now, Now Kach...you well know that the new USAF uniform is way out of our hands.  I have upgraded uniforms once already...from 4 button four pocket to three button slit pocket.   By the way, it should also be pointed out that, as far as service coats go, most people don't own one.  I do, because I choose to.  I will likely...very likely, buy the new USAF incarnation of the CAP Service Coat, not so much the CSU.

If CAP goes, all CSU...what choice would I have?  That is not going to happen...at least if all things remain equal.  We could speculate that there is a movement to uniform CAP in its own uniform...some point to recent Congressional action to work for the Homeland security.  That, however, is just that...wild speculation that is best left in the realm of fantasy.

[Hawk200]

I am affraid that I cannot support the removal of the Corporate Service Uniform, Chuck is right...if the last Texas Wing Conference is any indication, lots of CAP Officers have that service coat. 

I cannot and will not support the removal of an expense so many have made.  It was an approved uniform and still is.  While I will most likely never buy one, it has taken on a popular stance among a lot many CAP folks.

Unless policies radically change on the USAF side as well as the CAP side, that uniform is here to stay.

I wasn't a big fan of the CSU, but I have to say it's far more uniform than other things available. The blazer uniform is basically a combo of civilian clothes and CAP insignia. It's pretty much a dark blue coat, almost any white shirt with epaulets, and just about any slacks. For the coat and slacks (or skirt for females), there are types of cloth designated, but for the most part, it's rare that any two are the same style or even near the same exact color. They aren't consistant. With the CSU, all the pieces are the same color, fabric, and pattern.

It would be nice if it and the Air Force uniforms were more similar though. I still think the CSU sleeve braid is gaudy. After wearing CAP Mess Dress, I don't even like the silver braid on the Air Force officer version.

For those that have the CSU, they are making steps toward uniformity that the blazer seriously lacks.

[ColonelJack]

[What about all the guys who spent money on the 3-button McPeak uniform?  if we are gonna change uniforms to match the AF (Which I don't think we'll have a choice on) then SOMEBODY's gotta pay!

The 3-button McPeak uniform is still authorized CAP, and will be for probably the foreseeable future.  There isn't even a final, this-is-it-so-stop-complaining version of the new AF service coat yet, and it will take a long phase-in before you'll see CAP authorized to wear it.  (That is, if the past holds true with new AF uniforms.)  Your investment (and mine!) in the 3-button McPeak monstrosity is safe for a while yet.

Chuck

[ColonelJack]

......Chuck?  Who the heck's Chuck?   

Capt Charles E. (Chuck) Corway, CAP

Capt Corway is a sporter, and supporter, of the new service coat.

I'm affraid I will have to Chuckle a bit... I think you intercepted by pass to Capt Corway.

And thus, in the ususal Carralesian manner...

Hi, Jack...what's up, Chuck?

Sparky ... I think what threw me was that I was the one who mentioned the CSU not going away, not Chuck. 

Now I'm having something of an identity crisis.

Chuck

[Major Carrales]

Well said, Hawk.  The idea is to be rational on the matter and not on the supposed rationale for it.  

Some folks see conspiracy coming out of the woodwork...the new Uniform, while rethotically unpopular, is actually quite popular in the practice of wear.  I suppose the new USAF uniform coming out will be the same way.

As I have always seen it, the CSU was nothing more than an attempt to solve/address several issues that the General Membership had spouted for years.  1) Hard rank on the service coat, 2) Blue shoulder marks on the Shirt, 3) Height and Weight issues and 4)a uniform/standard CAP distinctive uniform that was not a smattering of grey trousers and all sorts of aviator/law enforment shirts.

Because it was introduced at a "strange" portion of CAP political history, it was seen as the ravings of what some called a "dictator's whim."  At that time and now I must point out several things about that that don't quite hold that in the realm of truth.  1) The support of more than the then National Commander, 2) Approval of the National Board, 3) continued wear beyond the term of the former National Commander, 4) wear by the interim National Commander and 5) virtual silence from the USAF on the matter.

The latter was expressed by Col. Hodgkins, they consider all that an internal CAP matter and would (by this posting) have acted on it (blue shoulder marks) with a lot more action.  Seems to me that if they had a problem with those shoulder marks, we would have had them done within a week of induction of them.  They still remain, thus we must accept that they have been tacitly approved by the USAF.

[Hawk200]

What about all the guys who spent money on the 3-button McPeak uniform?  if we are gonna change uniforms to match the AF (Which I don't think we'll have a choice on) then SOMEBODY's gotta pay!

Uniform transition is one thing, but simply creating new uniforms without phasing anything else out is rather impractical.

How many uniforms have we phased out compared to new ones? Not many that I recall. Even the older four pocket service coat is still being worn by cadets. The Air Force went to the new service coat ten years ago. That's plenty of time to get something new.

We have combos that have been just hanging around. I think the blazer is a concept that is over now that the CSU is here. Same with that silk screened polo shirt. The embroidered seal polo looks better anyway. Make it the standard "dress down" uniform with the option of name and wings on it. Easy peasy, it's done, over and out.

We have a jumpsuit that is virtually identical to a flightsuit. Why does it even exist? Go back to a previous time where everyone can wear a flightsuit. It's not like people are only wearing it in the air, and it's fewer uniforms in the closet. Plus, it's more uniform.

I will probably invest in the new Air Force uniform once it becomes authorized for us. I had to replace my Air Force uniforms with a newer model while I was in, so it's not really an issue. Even in civilian jobs, you've got to replace stuff as it wears out. For that matter, everyone has to buy new clothes at some time. Save all your coin change for six months, there will probably be a good chunk there for you to work with toward new uniforms.

Everybody screams about uniformity, but there seems to be a bunch of "That's special to me, so no one else should have it!", or else "Corporate uniforms are the only answer!". The Air Force variant service dress and the CSU can, will, and do peacefully coexist. We could stand to make them a little more alike for the sake of solidarity, but that could be so easily and inexpensively done that it's more a case of someone crying only because they want to, not because it's killing them.  Or else it's insignia they (should) already have.

As for the uniform that Mosely is wearing, I like it. It looks good. I look forward to wearing it, be it in CAP or in the Air Force.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I agree with the concept and the implementation of the TPU.  I don't like certain features of it, like what moron would design a double-breasted uniform for fat guys?  (Oops... did I say "Moron?"  I meant to say, "Great But Ethically-Challenged Leader... simple slip of the tounge!)  I also think the silver braid looks like something that would be worn by Muramar Kaddaffi for Friday prayers.

But to have a modified AF uniform that looks at home among AF uniforms is a very big step to being "Uniform."  It is a good compromise or those of us who are are at their ideal weight, but about 6-8 inches too short.

But you are right, implementation of the new AF uniform will take a while, and whatever wear-out times go for the Air Force, figure on double for CAP, and triple for CAP cadets.

The solution, long term?  The way I see it is to officially declare a NEW CSU, concurrent with the new AF uniform, and put all officers in the new one.  The NEW CSU (The JKU?) will be the AF Hap Arnold Heritage uniform with enough stuff changed so the AF can stay happy with it as a CSU, but not so much changed so as the average person will look at it and think: "Air Force, but..."

[Hawk200]

....The solution, long term?  The way I see it is to officially declare a NEW CSU, concurrent with the new AF uniform, and put all officers in the new one...

I still don't understand this reasoning. "It will be more uniform if we put seniors in this, but cadets in this...". You end up with one group that doesn't look like the other. At least with some seniors in AF variants, and cadets wearing them, people will be able to associate the two. One completely different uniform for all seniors doesn't make sense to me.

I might consider the CSU if mil decs and badges were permitted. At least I could still wear all those things I have laying around long after I'm finished with the military. It's been a major part of my life, I don't wish to let it go on a whim.

[arajca]

I might consider the CSU if mil decs and badges were permitted. At least I could still wear all those things I have laying around long after I'm finished with the military. It's been a major part of my life, I don't wish to let it go on a whim.

If you can get the awarding service to authorize it, you can wear military ribbons on the CSU. Unless they changed it, that is. IIRC, the Army permits awards to be worn on other uniforms if that service allows it. Badges, though, are still verbotten.

[Eclipse]

I might consider the CSU if mil decs and badges were permitted. At least I could still wear all those things I have laying around long after I'm finished with the military. It's been a major part of my life, I don't wish to let it go on a whim.

As of today, military ribbons may be worn on the CSU, but military badges may not.

[arajca]

I might consider the CSU if mil decs and badges were permitted. At least I could still wear all those things I have laying around long after I'm finished with the military. It's been a major part of my life, I don't wish to let it go on a whim.

As of today, military ribbons may be worn on the CSU, but military badges may not.

Documentation?

[MIKE]

How the heck did this drift into a TPU discussion? [/rhetorical question]

[Eclipse]

I might consider the CSU if mil decs and badges were permitted. At least I could still wear all those things I have laying around long after I'm finished with the military. It's been a major part of my life, I don't wish to let it go on a whim.

As of today, military ribbons may be worn on the CSU, but military badges may not.

Documentation?

Unfortunately I can't. 

The last time I researched uniform changes for my presentation, I found a reliable source, ICL, etc., for that assertion, and was somewhat surprised myself.

I can't seem to find that in my notes, and of course the CSU isn't even in 39-1 yet - its entire existence being only in ICL's.

I find references to CAP ribbons and badges, but not military ribbons in everything that is turning up quickly.

(was this a very recent board decision that isn't published yet?)

[Camas]

As of today, military ribbons may be worn on the CSU, but military badges may not.

Yup, and I saw a powerpoint somewhere that states the same thing. Yet I have it on good authority that, for now, military ribbons shouldn't be worn. Her name? Susie Parker!

[mikeylikey]

Eventually, military ribbons will be allowed to be worn on the Corporate Uniform.  I can't see why they would not be allowed.  The AF does not control that uniform, it is entirely a National Staffer decision, and one that should be corrected IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Ribbons and decorations can be worn on a Walmart blazer by VETS, but not on a CAP uniform.  Makes no sense to me. 

[MIKE]

Actually most uniform/awards regulations do address wear of military awards on other clothing.  I've looked them up before.

And since this had nothing to do with Gen Mosley's test uniform... Lock.