Over 18 Cadets

[lordmonar]

I know we have talked about this before...but it has been a while and it was brought up in the new 60-1 discussion.

I feel we have a problem with what to do with the over 18/under 21 crowd.

The overlap between who is a cadet and who is a senior member often raises a lot of angst and Knuckel-biting with these members.

The problem is that we often make a lot of assumptions when we write regulations or set policy.

The word "cadet" often is attached to a mental picture of a 12-14 year old.  While some of those cadets are legal adults, living on their own, driving cars, working, voting, and generally doing everything that adults do.....and then they go to a CAP activity and they are treated like "children".

I have had a lot of conversations with over 18 cadets who resent being treated like children...but the bottom line is that the regulations are written in such a way that Cadets are in fact children.  Right, wrong or indifferent that is the way things are.

So here is my proposed solution to the problem.

1.  Set a hard and fast age for membership in the cadet program and the senior program.   Elimintate the option area.....so if we set the age at 19 (for instants) all 18 year olds are cadets and all 19 year olds are senior members....no more over lap.

2.  If we set the SM age for anything less than 21....either eliminate the FO ranks or integrate them into the normal progression of the SM program.  This eliminate the stigma of FO's being seen as old cadets or second rate citezens.

[jb512]

I don't know that there's an easy fix, but it is kind of strange when you can have an 18 year old Flight Officer supervising or otherwise responsible for cadets who can be 19 or 20 years old.

[BillB]

Another answer is to reinstate the Officer Training Corp that was in use in the 1950's. Here an OTC member was given what amounted to a transition to Senior membership and included higher level leadership training than offered in the cadet program. The problem with the current 18-21 year olds is they often want to earn Earhart and Spaatz before they join the dark side. So the answer is to join OTC and allow the OTC members to take both Senior and Cadet training. By cadet training I mean allow taking tests etc in the cadet program while also taking level 1 and level 2 Senior training. Transfer to OTC would not be optional at age 18, but manditory so basically it becomes a third level of CAP membership having the advantages of both the cadet program and the senior program.

[davidsinn]

I believe that somewhere it's stated that for legal/insurance reasons that no one under 21 can hold officer rank.  I don't even know where to look for a cite.

[Pylon]

The way it's set up now, I think the two membership classes are set up with distinct purposes.

Cadets who are 12-17 have the same purpose in Civil Air Patrol as the cadets who are 18-20.  They are still developing under the Cadet Program.  While they are adults in the legal sense, they're refining their higher-level leadership skills, maybe striving to finish that Spaatz or Eaker, and beginning to learn upper management stuff - still students. They should still be participating in the five components of the Cadet Program and anything they're contributing back is "gravy".  Think of them like upperclassmen.

Senior members have a very different purpose.  As a senior member, the emphasis is now on your service back to CAP - through ES, through leadership roles, through CP management, through AE - whatever duties the SM picks up.  The role is different.

For those members ages 18-20 who become Senior Members, I think it's very clear that their role has changed.  For those members ages 18-20, I think it's less clear sometimes that their role is still primarily a learning one.  This isn't to say that senior members don't learn and cadets don't "give back" at all - but rather those are the primary purposes of that class of membership.  Each member can make the choice, though, which is the beauty of the current set-up.  At any point during that 18-20 period, they can decide they're done focusing on learning and want to change their focus to primarily giving back.

[Psicorp]

I love the Officer Training Corp idea.

Great points, Pylon, but I still think that the "higher-level leadership skills" and the "upper management stuff" isn't given enough credit (or sufficiently guided to maturation).  If the Senior Member Program focused more on those skills and knowledge during Levels I and II, I think we'd be better off.   

The problem with older Cadets is that they typically are going to school and working, which doesn't leave a whole lot of time to be as involved in the squadron as we'd like.  Ideally an older Cadet (especially a Cadet Officer) should be holding a staff position (at least as an assistant) in the squadron.   

I believe if Cadet Officers are given responsibility and an opportunity to prove themselves, there would be less frustration. 

[Eclipse]

The problem with older Cadets is that they typically are going to school and working, which doesn't leave a whole lot of time to be as involved in the squadron as we'd like.  Ideally an older Cadet (especially a Cadet Officer) should be holding a staff position (at least as an assistant) in the squadron. 

Ditto on Pylon's comments as well.

I don't really see any issue with the way things are today, assuming a basic level of respect and a real program / plan at the unit.

Our grade structure is wishy enough without bringing in 18 year olds to make things wishy-er.

18 year old Cadets have simple math to do - assuming a similar level of participation, will they get more from CAP as a cadet or  senior member? In my experience, generally its remaining as a cadet - whether its a run at Spaatz, some NCSA, or a leadership position.

As mentioned above, the "perfect storm" is cadets who convert to SM and then go off and have a life, many times away from the unit - so right at a time when they are in CAP transition, they are in life transition as well.  They aren't around as much, so they can't participate in a program that at the same time they don't understand (as well) - add in that older cadets are usually top of the food chain in the CP, and are now likely near the bottom as SM's and you've got real issues.  Add further the attitudes of some SM's who don't respect each other, let alone some "kid who thinks he's gonna tell me what to do..." well, we know where that goes.

We're not going to be able to change the transition issues, but we can change attitudes.

[mikeylikey]

A real simple fix would be;

anyone who is 18 is an Officer (flight officer, or 2nd Lt. etc.)

However, there would be a clause that if you are a cadet and you turn 18 while still attending High School, you stay a cadet until you Graduate.  Just like we had the clause about joining the cadet program (6th grade or 12 years old, which gave us 11 year old cadets). 

It is rather jacked up that we have 18 year old FO's supervising 20 year old Cadets. 

Maybe we should just run the cadet program out to 21 and get rid of FO's altogether.

[MIKE]

They just have to make it so that if you want to do adult things and be treated like an adult, you have to stop being a cadet.  No more cadet aircrew, GTL's etc...Those that choose to remain cadets to 21 get treated the same as a -18 cadet.  Make them sign some sort of legal waiver or something as a condition of continued cadet membership.

[ZigZag911]

OTC idea sounds good; there was a version back in the 70s called Senior Transition Program (or possibly Cadet Transition Program); either way, much like the description of OTC (which is a better term!).....also fits with recent adoption of cadet milestone awards as fulfilling some aspects of SM training program.

[mikeylikey]

^ Maybe it would not be a bad idea to end the Cadet program at 18.  I have 4 Cadets that attend meetings regularly in my SQd that joined shortly before their 18th birthday, and are hoping to use CAP as a way into the Service Academies.  I don't agree with that, but I have to follow the rules and let them join.  I have to say though, having a 19 year old go to Encampment this summer seems strange.  The oldest Cadet I have ever had up to this point attend ENC was 17.

I am all for cutting off cadet membership to prospective members if they are within 6 months of their 18th birthday.  I am also for doing away with Flight Officers.  We can create a better program for SENIOR MEMBERS that just happen not to be 21 yet. 

I met an Army Guard 2LT, who was a FLIGHT OFFICER in CAP because she was not yet 21.  In fact, she was a CAP Cadet until the day she received her Commission then chose to become a CAP FO, because being a Military Officer and a CAP CADET was a little strange to her, and I can completely agree with her decision.  What I don't agree with is the fact that she can not hold CAP Officer rank (2nd Lt) yet has a military Commission.

The program needs a cutoff at 18 rule.  You are an adult, sorry....you can't play with the Cadets like other Cadets can.  There are many legal things us Senior Members have to be aware of having 2 (yes two) different groupings of Cadets.  We have 12-17, and 18-21 groups.  The 18 to 21 group can do different things than the 12-17 group can in the real world.  Then comes into play what happens if something criminal takes place (statutory issues).  I would rather have all minors in the Cadet program, not minors and adults together.  Physical, mental and social aspects are completely different between adults and children.  That is why I think the law says a person is considered an adult at 18 in this country. 

Maybe I am getting to deep into it, but I never cared for having the cadet program open to ADULTS!   

[Ned]

Would someone be kind enough to restate the "problem" we are trying to "solve" by throwing several thousand cadets out of our highly successful program?

Did Gen Curry and the rest of those guys simply get it wrong when the cadet program was created during WWII?  And did every single subsequent National Commander for the last 60+ years simply fail to notice this issue?



(Remember, every single branch of our armed forces has cadets over and under the age of 18.  If they don't care, why should we?)

But if we simply must have a rule that says every CAP member under the age of 21 is a cadet, we could learn to live with it, I guess.

[RiverAux]

Ned, you're saying that about 1 out of every 12 cadets is 18-21?  I don't think so. 

As with many issues we discuss here, it isn't a major one, but....

I agree with lordmonar.  Cadet program should end at age 19.  I would say 18, but I do think we should allow them to finish high school at least, and many kids are 18 at that time.  As to what rank they would be, I say let them start in the regular senior member program as a SM and advance like everyone else. 

[Pylon]

I agree with lordmonar.  Cadet program should end at age 19.  I would say 18, but I do think we should allow them to finish high school at least, and many kids are 18 at that time.  As to what rank they would be, I say let them start in the regular senior member program as a SM and advance like everyone else. 

We're you ever a cadet?  Do you have a cadet programs rating?

[RiverAux]

Yes.  Earned Mitchell.  What difference does that make?

[mikeylikey]

Did Gen Curry and the rest of those guys simply get it wrong when the cadet program was created during WWII?  And did every single subsequent National Commander for the last 60+ years simply fail to notice this issue?

Totally different program, and totally different time in our country.

(Remember, every single branch of our armed forces has cadets over and under the age of 18.  If they don't care, why should we?)

Yes, under 18, they are not in the Armed Forces (JROTC), over 18= ROTC and a signed enlistment contract.  Army does have Early Commissioning program where a 17 year old and his or her parent(s) could sign the enlistment contract.  If you were just talking about the Academies and ROTC, then yes you could have a 17 or 18 year old Cadet, but they also have signed that contract.  Our CAP Cadets are not incurring military service, so apples and oranges. 

[RiverAux]

Not exactly correct -- you can be in ROTC without a contract.  As I recall (it used to be at least), it was the first two years unless you were on a scholarship. 

[mikeylikey]

^ You are correct. 

[Ned]

Our CAP Cadets are not incurring military service, so apples and oranges. 

Nope.

Every dictionary I've ever seen defines a "cadet" as a military student, usually in training to be an officer.  If you have some other definition, let us know.

That's why we have cadets in CAP and Uncle Sam has a bunch of cadets.  There are cadets in each of the academies today over the age of 25, I believe.  Take a moment, and go to West Point and  look up a 24 year-old prior enlisted Iraq vet and tell her/him that they meet your personal definition of a "child" since they are a merely a cadet.

Tell me how that goes.   



but, guys -- you are the ones proposing a major change to our program -- the burden is on you to tell us exactly why we should toss all these cadets out on their collective backsides.

So, I repeat:  What is the "problem" you are "solving' here?


And please tell me it is something more than minor supervision issues in ES which could be fixed with minor regulation tweaking.


Talk about babies and bathwater . . .


Ned Lee

(At COS and surrounded by 120 of our finest cadets -- nearly half of which are 18 and older.)

[RiverAux]

And just how are we tossing them out?  Lordmonar's proposal would open things up to giving them more responsibility and opportunities than they have now.