AF Reservists fight order to wear uniform while performing civilian duties

[RiverAux]

Every once in a while when discussing uniforms the topic of members of the AF Reserve serving as civilian technicians (Air Reserve Technicians = ARTs) for the AF has come up in various contexts primarily relating to CAP augmentation of the AF).  A while back they were ordered to wear their uniforms while working as civilians.  And, according to the AF Times http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2008/04/airforce_airreservetechnicians_lawsuit_042408w/ some of them are suing over this order.  It seems they're not that enthused about it:

The ARTs fighting the policy worried that wearing their uniforms in their civilian capacity would put them under the jurisdiction of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and that it could create chain-of-command issues, as ARTs may hold higher military rank than civilian rank.

[JohnKachenmeister]

They might have a point.

In the Guard, techician positions are identified as "Officer" or "Enlisted" positions, since Guard techs have always been required to wear uniforms.  Since the Reserve side has never been recruited for civilian positions that way, you COULD find an NCO as the supervisor of a field grade officer.

But I don't think its worth suing over.  Individual problems can be worked out, I am sure.

[RiverAux]

One of the other issues brought up was that some of them weren't too happy about having to meet AF grooming requirements at all times.  Now, if they want to wear a beard they can until it is time for a drill day. 

Some of them were just mad about how it was implemented -- making it seem like it was for "good order and discipline" -- thereby implying that they were a bunch of lazy civilian louts now and that they needed to be put in uniform to be straightened out.

Frankly, I don't think it is a good policy to order people serving in a civilian capacity to wear a military uniform unless at the same time you are granting them all the benefits associated with full-time military service.  Heck, either put them on active duty or hire full-blooded civilians.

How does this affect CAP?  Well, not directly since it is a pretty focused order.  However, if this line of thinking is extended out, we might find that CAP members who are also members of the military might be ordered to wear their military uniforms while working in CAP. 

[DNall]

Full time civilian DoD employees have pretty much all the benefits of being in the military. What they don't have a reservist does, so I'm at a loss to see how a person in such a position would not have all the same things as active duty. If anything the dual status works in their favor for retirement purposes.

The CoC issue can be a legitimate one. As John said, we don't really have the problem so much in the guard. The reserves are a little screwy though. As far as ht/wt & grooming, they need to get the hell over that. You fail those standards or a PT test on AGR/ADSW & you're fired. They should be happy they got a job & get to work doing it. I don't have time for whiny punks, I'm sure the AF doesn't either.

How does this affect CAP?  Well, not directly since it is a pretty focused order.  However, if this line of thinking is extended out, we might find that CAP members who are also members of the military might be ordered to wear their military uniforms while working in CAP. 

That's a REALLY big stretch, and counter-intuitive.

[RiverAux]

I believe it was the medical benefits that was mentioned specifically. 

It was the grooming, not fitness that was mentioned.

Quote from: RiverAux on Today at 03:36:41 PM
How does this affect CAP?  Well, not directly since it is a pretty focused order.  However, if this line of thinking is extended out, we might find that CAP members who are also members of the military might be ordered to wear their military uniforms while working in CAP." 
"That's a REALLY big stretch, and counter-intuitive."

Just taking the "one fight" concept behind this change one step further, though I probably should have restricted it just to AF members. 

[DNall]

They get medical benefits as DoD federal civilian employees.

[RiverAux]

as good as military members and at less cost?

[DNall]

I'm not absolutely certain on this, but I believe...

Same benefit. Civilian employees are paid significantly more than their mil paygrade, but a portion is withheld to cover insurance. Whereas active mil are paid a lot less with free benefit. If they want a free benefit, I can change the system up, put them on active duty in their mil paygrade & associated positions (so you clear up that CoC issue). They'll end up with a lot less money or right to say anything about it, and still have the same benefits they do now.

Stupid losing battle on their part if you ask me.

[RiverAux]

Stupid losing battle on their part if you ask me.

I think you're right about that.

[Frenchie]

Stupid losing battle on their part if you ask me.

I think it will get thrown out in short order.  Civil service have the right to form unions and bargain collectively, and the unions are the ones filing the lawsuit.  It sounds to me like an attempt to win something in court they couldn't win at the bargaining table.  Most courts take a dim view of that.

[mikeylikey]

Maybe the AF should shop these jobs out to contract workers!  That would solve this problem. 

[RiverAux]

Thats the problem -- they've taken a sort of weird half-and-half situation wherein everyone in the job had to be a Reservist, but would work as a civilian and now are trying to blur the lines even more.  The simple solution is to either go all one way or all the other. 

[PHall]

Maybe the AF should shop these jobs out to contract workers!  That would solve this problem. 

They're NOT contract workers Mikey. Air Reserve Technitions are Federal Civil Service employees who, as a condition of their employment, must be a member of the Air Force Reserve as a condition of employment.
If they get out of the reserves they lose their jobs.

During the week, they're Civil Service employees in the WG/GS/GM ranks.
During their weekend drills, etc. they're TSgt, CMSgt, Capt.

[mikeylikey]

They're NOT contract workers Mikey. Air Reserve Technitions are Federal Civil Service employees who, as a condition of their employment, must be a member of the Air Force Reserve as a condition of employment.
If they get out of the reserves they lose their jobs.

During the week, they're Civil Service employees in the WG/GS/GM ranks.
During their weekend drills, etc. they're TSgt, CMSgt, Capt.

Understood.  However, they are reservists 24/7 also.  They only happen to have their civilian employment through the AF. 

Me personally, I would be happy to wear my uniform to work everyday.  Less khakis and dress shirts to buy.  (Mikey does wear ACU's and PT's on a daily basis because he is AD, grinding away in ROTC land)  I can see where these people are coming from as well.  They signed up to do 1 weekend a month and two weeks a year (hahahhahah.....very unlikely these days), and are being told to get in uniform everyday. 

I can also see where the AF is coming from. 

[afgeo4]

They're NOT contract workers Mikey. Air Reserve Technitions are Federal Civil Service employees who, as a condition of their employment, must be a member of the Air Force Reserve as a condition of employment.
If they get out of the reserves they lose their jobs.

During the week, they're Civil Service employees in the WG/GS/GM ranks.
During their weekend drills, etc. they're TSgt, CMSgt, Capt.

Understood.  However, they are reservists 24/7 also.  They only happen to have their civilian employment through the AF. 

Me personally, I would be happy to wear my uniform to work everyday.  Less khakis and dress shirts to buy.  (Mikey does wear ACU's and PT's on a daily basis because he is AD, grinding away in ROTC land)  I can see where these people are coming from as well.  They signed up to do 1 weekend a month and two weeks a year (hahahhahah.....very unlikely these days), and are being told to get in uniform everyday. 

I can also see where the AF is coming from. 

What about uniform issue? Reservists don't get uniforms issued as often as a/d.

[SAR-EMT1]

Im of the opinion that these folks either need to be declared Active Reserve, thus 100% military 24/7 or 100% civillian and they lose the Reserve membership requirement and uniforms.

....

I KNOW ! - WE CAN MAKE THEM VSAF! (joke)

[mikeylikey]

What about uniform issue? Reservists don't get uniforms issued as often as a/d.

I think they can afford to buy 2 extra sets of uniforms.  Don't forget Officers don't get issue.  They would be spending the money on dress clothes or whatever they were required to wear before the order to wear uniforms came out, right?!?

Mute point I think. 

[DNall]

What about uniform issue? Reservists don't get uniforms issued as often as a/d.

I don't know what the situation is for AFRes, but we (army guard) get a full issue same as active duty, then can trade out items once a year. Active duty gets a clothing allowance. I don't see where it's a problem. Uniforms cost pretty much the same as khakis & a dress shirt, maybe less. And as I said, they are being paid significantly more as civil service employees than they would if placed on AGR orders.

[SAR-EMT1]

Something I forgot to mention above is that I DETEST that unions exist among the military services.

That and  I have the general opinion that anyone associated with the military should be either AD, RES, Guard or Aux. I do not support "civillian" employees of the Defense Dept. one bit. (I hate the merc security groups under contract to the state dept too)

YMMV

[DNall]

civil service employees are not contractors, and they are certainly not private mercs working for whomever. The old lady working as secretary at a BDE HQ during the week is not a bad thing. It's no different than postal workers. I would agree that we go way too far with civilian workers now. In WWII all these people would be in the military. Now we spend 5 times the money on one person to do the same job. I could understand if it were short-term w/ no job security or benefits, but that's not the case. I'd rather put a lot more of those jobs in uniform.

As for these Techs, I don't understand why the AF does it that way. On the Army guard side we have plenty of full timers. But, ours are ADSW or AGR - meaning active duty in their mil grade.