Required cadet uniforms????

[capchiro]

Good evening one and all...I have read many messages on this board about uniforms, BDU's and polished boots.  Many opinions and thoughts on the matter.  Is everyone aware that according CAPM 39-1, a cadet is only required to have a basic uniform, which is the blue shirt and pants, etc., supplied by the Air Force (when available).  Any other uniform is not required for any CAP activities unless it is supplied to the cadet (read, as in free) or it's purchase is voluntary (as in, optional).  Somehow this makes the requirement for BDU's optional and not a requirement unless your unit is supplying them.  This also throws a monkey wrench into the requirements of anything other than the basic uniform for encampments, etc.  Are most units supplying (as in, giving for free) BDU's to their cadets?  If so, where do you get your BDU's for issue?  Sometimes we talk about not being military enough or being too military, however, if one looks at the regulations, it would appear that the Air Force and/or CAP are not terribly interested in our cadets dressing in battle dress....Wow, I can feel the heat, but I think this is a good topic and place for this discussion.  Respectfully....

[MIKE]

I think most of us are aware of this... I know I am... I think it comes down to what uniform is seen as more practical for the particular activity, and that is the argument you will most often see.  I think that for most regular meeting type activities you could wear short sleeve service uniforms without much difficulty...  The week to week Cadet Programs type activities... I think that was the intent anyway.

What actually happens in units can be quite different... I recall another senior member officer who stated "You can't do anything in blues."  I have seen many cases where the BDU was more or less the standard uniform for nearly every meeting and activity, because the service uniform is just not seen as appropriate... Yet sometimes it gets to the point where the BDU is treated more as a "dress" uniform than as a utility uniform, and is so starched, pressed, shined and modified so that it "looks sharp" that one wouldn't dare wear it in the field as it might get dirty or wrinkled.

I don't know of a single encampment that doesn't require the BDU or CAPDFU.   My wing requires a minimum of two complete sets, yet only one complete short sleeved service uniform.

[capchiro]

I heartily agree, however, that doesn't address the problem/question?  Is it not a violation of CAP regulations for Wing to require BDU's for encampments?  I can understand the desire to wear BDU's when on an ES mission or training, but that brings up another question.  Is ES really a cadet function?  Does the Air Force/CAP really want cadets on ES missions?  There aren't too many functions that a cadet can legally do on an ES mission that they couldn't wear the basic Air Force uniform for.  I am thinking of flight line marshalling, radio operator, etc.  Most commanders have a problem with cadets being too close to actual crash sites.  I know that the cadets want to wear BDU's and want to do ES.  I also know some cadets that think they are young marine commandos.  While perhaps admirable, that is not what the CAP program is all about.  Maybe it's time to rethink the program and change the regulations.  There is nothing in the regs about weekend FTX's (camping in the woods), but the cadets love it.  Are we shortchanging the educational/technical training part of the program by not focusing on aviation and technology instead of boot camp activities?  And does it not demonstrate poor leadership for a Wing commander to violate CAP regs by requiring BDU's without making it voluntary or providing same?  These are a few of the thoughts that run through a seasoned and senior (and I mean senior as in old) member's mind.....       

[MIKE]

I heartily agree, however, that doesn't address the problem/question?  Is it not a violation of CAP regulations for Wing to require BDU's for encampments?

Not sure I can make a violation call on that one colonel, but here is the relevant cite:

1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

Emphasis mine.

The reason I'm not comfortable calling a foul on this one is in terms of optional versus mandatory in terms of the activity.  If the activity is optional, then it's your option to procure the required uniform if you want to participate.  If a commander is saying that a uniform other than the minimum required by the manual is required for a mandatory event, then it must conform to the standards shown above and be issued free of charge or be purchased voluntarily, but that could be reaching a bit... I dunno.

I can understand the desire to wear BDU's when on an ES mission or training, but that brings up another question.  Is ES really a cadet function?

I think that maybe we are overemphasizing ES on the cadet side... Sometimes I think it's becoming in integral part of the cadet program... And I don't think that was the intent originally... You'll get different points of view on this for sure... I did a lot of ES as a cadet myself, and it has it's good points and bad points in terms of its effect... Mostly I think integrating it with the cadet program is a bad idea though.

Does the Air Force/CAP really want cadets on ES missions?  There aren't too many functions that a cadet can legally do on an ES mission that they couldn't wear the basic Air Force uniform for.  I am thinking of flight line marshalling, radio operator, etc.  Most commanders have a problem with cadets being too close to actual crash sites.  I know that the cadets want to wear BDU's and want to do ES.

The trends lately do seem to indicate to me at least, that cadets in general are more and more often being seen as a liability it terms of ES operations.  You must, be 16 or 18 etc.  But there are many more ES tasks that cadets can currently be qualified to perform than you note here... Whether or not this should continue with current trends is the real issue.

I also know some cadets that think they are young marine commandos.  While perhaps admirable, that is not what the CAP program is all about.  Maybe it's time to rethink the program and change the regulations.  There is nothing in the regs about weekend FTX's (camping in the woods), but the cadets love it.  Are we shortchanging the educational/technical training part of the program by not focusing on aviation and technology instead of boot camp activities?  And does it not demonstrate poor leadership for a Wing commander to violate CAP regs by requiring BDU's without making it voluntary or providing same?  These are a few of the thoughts that run through a seasoned and senior (and I mean senior as in old) member's mind.....       

IMO... Cadets need to be focused on the cadet program and not ES... The majority of cadet activities should be aimed at achieving the goals of the cadet program... I think we have over sold ES to a lot of cadets, and there are a lot of cadets who are the Rescue Ranger type, who only want to do ES and thats the only real reason they are in CAP.  IMO this is bad for the cadet program as a whole.

[capchiro]

Mike, I agree with you...that said, I don't think summer encampment can be considered to be an optional activity since it is required to obtain the Mitchell Award.  Ergo, since it is a required activity, to progress in the program, how can a Wing Commander require the wearing of a uniform (BDU's) that either aren't supplied or are not voluntarily purchased as they are required?  I will share the fact that when I attended encampment (in the dark ages) at Chanute Air Force Base, the only uniforms we were required to have and wore were the khaki uniform and PT uniform.  The emphasis on the program then was flying, aviation maintenance and classes involving ground school for flying.  We never went hiking or camping or trained in any emergency services.  We still enjoyed it and felt like we were preparing ourselves for a future in aviation or the military.  But, I digress, I still feel uncomfortable with the regulations and requiring cadets to wear uniforms in violation of same...Still a diliema...

[MIKE]

Mike, I agree with you...that said, I don't think summer encampment can be considered to be an optional activity since it is required to obtain the Mitchell Award.  Ergo, since it is a required activity, to progress in the program, how can a Wing Commander require the wearing of a uniform (BDU's) that either aren't supplied or are not voluntarily purchased as they are required?

A requirement for an award that according to information I received today at SLS... 83% of all cadets do not reach.   Really puts it into prospective I think.

I'm not one of those guys that subscribes to the idea that the cadet program is meant to be completed by the even the majority of cadets... I don't think everyone should get Spaatz or even Mitchell.  Even if they technically could...  IMO you can get a lot out of the program in phase I and II without an ecampment... But I agree that every cadet should be encouraged to attend an encampment early and not wait until the end of phase II and complete an encampment because it is required to complete the phase, (Like I did.) but rather for the other benefits.

I will share the fact that when I attended encampment (in the dark ages) at Chanute Air Force Base, the only uniforms we were required to have and wore were the khaki uniform and PT uniform.  The emphasis on the program then was flying, aviation maintenance and classes involving ground school for flying.  We never went hiking or camping or trained in any emergency services.  We still enjoyed it and felt like we were preparing ourselves for a future in aviation or the military.  But, I digress, I still feel uncomfortable with the regulations and requiring cadets to wear uniforms in violation of same...Still a diliema...

Khakis are cool... I wish we still had a modern version to wear... Was in short sleeved service uniform all day today (and all day tommorrow).... And I don't think this uniform would survive a week at encampments I have been at.  Khakis might have, but not my poly/wool service uniform.  Felt good to get out of that monkey suit.

[Eclipse]

It's too late - or early - to look this up to provide a quote and paragraph, but my
understanding is that Wing commanders and Unit CC's have the authority to
dictate the uniform of the day, including optoinal items.

Since attendance of encampments is not required, they are optional activities, I don't see the problem with this.

Sure an encampment is required for Mitchell, but progression through Mitchell is not a requirement (though yes, at some point a non progression could trigger a termination).

I doubt however, you'd get too many parents, concerned about saving the BDU cost,
who would be happy about their kid running a confidence course, doing PT, or mannig battlestations in their blues, only to have their shoes, etc., ruined.

Not, expecially these days w/ eBay.  The changes to all the uniforms is making woddland stuff real cheap.

[MIKE]

It's too late - or early - to look this up to provide a quote and paragraph, but my
understanding is that Wing commanders and Unit CC's have the authority to
dictate the uniform of the day, including optoinal items.

1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow
for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip
himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members
will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets
and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear
the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may
be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as
designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by
acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander
may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the
uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard
does not automatically permit its wear.

Emphasis added.

Since attendance of encampments is not required, they are optional activities, I don't see the problem with this.

Sure an encampment is required for Mitchell, but progression through Mitchell is not a requirement (though yes, at some point a non progression could trigger a termination).

Agreed.

[capchiro]

Gentlemen, I beg to differ with you, although not all cadets attend encampments and according to your theory, it is not a requirement for any specific cadet, it is a requirement of the cadet program to progress successfully. Since it is a requirement, not an elective, in the completion of the program, it is incorrect, according to the uniform manual, to require cadets to wear BDU's at encampments, unless the wear is voluntary or the uniform is provided at no cost to the cadet.  The Air Force could rectify this by issuing BDU's to new cadets (instead of selling them cheaply to independent contractors).  I don't see how your argument can be successful when the uniform manual says one thing and the encampment commanders require something in violation to the manual.  To go one step farther, how many squadrons require BDU wear to squadron meetings during the month?  This is also a violation of the uniform manual.  What think ye?

[footballrun21]

Encampment is optional unless you are going for the Mitchell award.  It is not required if you just want to be in CAP.  Also, the packing lists for encampments say that in order to 1.)pass inspection and 2.)to even attend, you need 2 stets of BDUs.  As for weekly meetings, you don't need BDUs, but when everyone else has them and you need them for other activities, people buy them themselves.  I've never met a cadet who didn't want or have a set of BDUs.

Also, as far as cadets making their BDUs look really great (starched/pressed/etc.) they do it for just that.  Looking good.  Most of the time you get inspected while in BDUs, since it is worn more than once a month like Blues.  Even vets will tell you that you need one uniform for inspection and when you're out doing recreiting, etc. and prefably two seperate niforms for the field.  This has always worked for me.

To go one step farther, how many squadrons require BDU wear to squadron meetings during the month?

My squadron requires us to wear BDUs about three times a month (minus a week if we are doing PT).  The first week of the month we wear blues for testing and promotion.

[Chris Jacobs]

I love my BDUs and all my other uniforms.  i am proud to wear them and would find a way to wear them wether i had the money or not.  even if my squadron didn't have uniforms to issue i would find a way for my self to get a pair for the meetings.  i know that my cadets are the same way.  it wouldn't matter if they were required or not we would all be wearing them any ways.  on top of that our squadron has a great supply for our cadets and there would be no reason for them to not have a set.

[capchiro]

The point is, is that at some point in a cadet's progression, it is required to attend a basic encampment that requires BDU's, which is in violation of CAPM39-1.  Also, if your squadron requires cadets to wear BDU's to weekly meetings, they are in violation of CAPM-391, unless it is voluntary(as in not required), or the squadron furnishes the BDU's to the cadets free of charge.  This brings up the question about the proposed changes to the cadet program wherein it says that a cadet must have and properly wear a CAP uniform prior to being promoted to Curry rank.  I would take it that this means the Air Force blue uniform as that is the only required cadet uniform.  What happens when the Air Force either waits six months to send the uniform or doesn't issue one, as has happened in the past, when they have run out of funds? Does this mean the cadet is expected to purchase a blue uniform out of his own funds, if the squadron doesn't have any?  The blue uniform isn't cheap, even at the BX.     

[Twolf]

     One of the questions that has not been asked is where do you get BDUs to give to the cadets for free. Every state has a National Guard. The National Guard is made up of two organizations. 1) The Army National Guard and 2) the Air National Guard. As the states go through uniforms they send them to a place called DRMO(from my understanding - don't ask me what that stands for) and then DRMO either sells them or destorys them to make rags. The easiest thing to do is contact your state's Adjutant General - he or she is the General incharge of the entire state's National Guard for both Army and Air. The TAG's office can figure out a way to give the uniforms to CAP in leiu of destorying them. I know my state USED to do this. You could try this at the sq level, but I'd recommend that you do this at the Wing level. The other thing you could do is contact your local (or nearest) Army or Air National Guard unit. You could talk to their Supply NCO and see if you can work out a deal through them directly. You should act fast on this because of my next paragraph.
     If you didn't know the Army is going to a new uniform, the ACU (Army Combat Uniform/Advanced Combat Uniform). The current policy is for soldiers to just throw out their old uniforms as they get the new uniforms or DX unserviceable uniforms (also uniforms that just don't fit any more). If you contact your local unit you could see if they'll collect all old uniforms (rather then telling the soldiers to destroy them) and donate them to CAP. Not only will you get a bunch of uniforms, but you'll get a crap load of field jackets as well - and possibly the Gortex Jackets/pants too. Being in the National Guard and CAP, I've already made a deal with one of my units and I'm working on several others as well. With the change to new uniforms in the Army (and Air Force soon) there is a great opportunity to get enough uniforms to last a virtual lifetime. You could also contact local Reserve units (Army or Air Force) to see if they'll do the same thing, but I don't know their policy on old uniforms - I'd imagine that it's the same.

Hope this makes some sense.

[MIKE]

As the states go through uniforms they send them to a place called DRMO(from my understanding - don't ask me what that stands for)

Defense Reutilization Marketing Office 

The TAG's office can figure out a way to give the uniforms to CAP in leiu of destorying them.

If they consider the uniforms to be unserviceable enough to warrant destruction as opposed to reuse, we probably don't want them anyway.

With the change to new uniforms in the Army (and Air Force soon) there is a great opportunity to get enough uniforms to last a virtual lifetime.

Ask anyone around in the early '90s when we switched from pickle suits and jungle greens to BDUs about the uniform availability then... Once the Army stopped wearing them the Air Force and in turn CAP switched to the BDU 'cause the supply of new pickle suits dried up and the expected influx of used stuff for CAP didn't materialize as expected.

Already seeing a lot of issues with cadets still being authorized the old style service uniforms and the supply drying up... Should be phased out sooner rather than later IMO.

[BillB]

Another possible source for BDUs is the Universities AFROTC Detachments.  At the end of the school year, many of the BDUs are in good condition and are still replaced, sent to DRMO. Your AFROTC Detachment in most cases is glad to transfer them to CAP rather than send to DRMO.  The same applies to blues. You may even find those $165 service coats available occasionally.
If a high school has an JAFROTC unit, uniforms may be available there also.

[Twolf]

If they consider the uniforms to be unserviceable enough to warrant destruction as opposed to reuse, we probably don't want them anyway.

The Army doesn't reuse uniforms at all - they all get sent to DRMO unless they still have a tag on them (i.e. they've never been worn) So if a soldier grows out of his or her BDUs, then they'll DX them and the old ones get sent to DRMO. But since we're getting new uniforms, it sounds like nothing gets sent to DRMO. I guess the whole point of my post is that the Army is getting rid of their BDUs - the good, bad and the ugly. This is an opportunity to get enough uniforms to last a LONG time. Sure you might get a crappy set here and there - But if you get 50 sets of uniforms in and 10 or 15 are bad enough to warrent destruction.... I'd say it's worth our time. Lets face it, we're never going to get top of the line stuff. We'll always get somebody else's old, used stuff. We should be happy getting anything at all.

[Chris Jacobs]

I know every one is not in the position to buy their own but for those of you who do have the money it is well worth buying the good stuff.  don't go to the local army surplus store because all they sell is the junkie civilian knock offs.  if you buy the good BDU's they will last you for years.  and when you out grow them (as i just did) you can give them to the squadron for those not in such great positions.  2 1/2 years ago i bought two sets of BDUs.  now i have out grown them but they are in better shape still than most cadets uniforms.  if you can afford new it is well worth your time.

For those that can't i think DRMO is a great option.  You will have to do some searching for a good pair and then you still may need to do some minor repairs (new button here or there).  but over all DRMO is a good source.

And for cadets that can't afford them i recommend a summer job.  i went down to the local air port this last summer and got a killer job.  i loved working down there and made a lot of money and now i can buy enough uniforms to start my own squadron.  i really like knowing that i can buy any uniform parts that i need and not have to wonder if i can afford them.  (i understand that this is not possible for every one)

I think what i am trying to say is that there is no reason not to be able to get a pair of BDU's and wear them.

[SarDragon]

I disagree. DRMO is, IMHO, one of the worst sources. Most of the clothing is unserviceable, and those items that are still usable are frequently in sizes that won't fit cadets.

[footballrun21]

      Not only will you get a bunch of uniforms, but you'll get a crap load of field jackets as well - and possibly the Gortex Jackets/pants too.

Nothing wrong with the extra things.  The field jackets and especially the Gortex parkas are really expensive.  Lucky for me I got the parkas used for only $40.
Most cadets will need these jackets in the winter anyway.  This way they don't have to buy their own and waste money (like I do all the time ) for a seasonal item.

[Eclipse]

In reply to the original question, as an encampment commander this issue concerns me greatly.

The answer is, that's just the way it is.

I believe your interpretation of 52-16 & 39-1 is correct - that there is no way to actually require a cadet to purchase anything but the basic uniform.  However as a practical matter, we as event commanders will, and have to, continue to prescribe proper UOD's which fit the duty.

What this means to me is that any cadet who absolutely refuses, whether on financial or legalistic grounds, to purchase anything but SS blues, will have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, and the regs would tie my hands in barring the cadet from participation.

With that said, many things in life are not fair, and frankly a cadet in that situation, for whatever  the reason, is not likely to excel in the program.

He or she would constantly stand out against the crowd, and ES would be all but closed to them.  Not to mention the added burden and expense of constantly repairing or replacing uniform parts which get ruined when over-worn or worn inappropriately.