Revamping CAP decorations.

[DNall]

Let me say this again... adults are NOT going to be the driving force on cadet ribbons. That is not negotiable. The national CAC backs a proposal that says all cadet achievement ribbons stay as is, upon reaching C/officer the enlisted ach ribbons come off & just milestones are worn. no other proposal is on the table, nor will it be.

Far as adult ribbons.... dang it, I'm walking down to my other computer right now. Hang on.... okay wait till morning.

[Flying Pig]

I dont know who any of these people are, I found them on the internet, but in comparison, I dont think CAP is on anyones radar for cadets having to many decorations.  And this Army cadet is pretty mild compared to most ROTC cadets Ive seen.  But what I do notice is that the CAP cadets arent wearing many of their achievement ribbons.

[BillB]

Under the old 39-1, cadets could wear all-some-none of their ribbons. the current 39-1, dropped the "some" and "none" If cadets through the CAC say drop the achievement ribbons it would seem that seniors, read that the National Board, should agree and change 39-1. When a rack includes the achievement ribbons, it lessens the value of the milestone ribbons. On the average cadet rack, can you find the Mitchell or Earhart ribbons? Granted cadets woul remove some of the bling on a ribbon rack, but the remaining ribbons have more value.

[cnitas]

Let me say this again... adults are NOT going to be the driving force on cadet ribbons. That is not negotiable. The national CAC backs a proposal that says all cadet achievement ribbons stay as is, upon reaching C/officer the enlisted ach ribbons come off & just milestones are worn. no other proposal is on the table, nor will it be.

Far as adult ribbons.... dang it, I'm walking down to my other computer right now. Hang on.... okay wait till morning.

Adults should design the framework of the cadet program and supervise the cadets as they operate within it.  Awards are a part of the framework.

Frankly, the CAC option is a no-go.  You should not have awards that you are later forced to remove.  Career C/CMsgts are already a problem in CAP.

You also say "no other proposal is on the table, nor will it be"

That is pretty strong language.  Why not? 
Can't the CAC change their mind? Is CAC so inneficient that they cannot look at more than one option at a time?  Have select senior members hijacked the CAC with their own agendas?

[cnitas]

I dont know who any of these people are, I found them on the internet, but in comparison, I dont think CAP is on anyones radar for cadets having to many decorations.  And this Army cadet is pretty mild compared to most ROTC cadets Ive seen.  But what I do notice is that the CAP cadets arent wearing many of their achievement ribbons.

The cadet is only wearing the mitchell, Earhart, Eaker, and Spaatz.
If you add the achievements back, the guy would be wearing 21 ribbons.

[DNall]

Let me say this again... adults are NOT going to be the driving force on cadet ribbons. That is not negotiable. The national CAC backs a proposal that says all cadet achievement ribbons stay as is, upon reaching C/officer the enlisted ach ribbons come off & just milestones are worn. no other proposal is on the table, nor will it be.

Adults should design the framework of the cadet program and supervise the cadets as they operate within it.  Awards are a part of the framework.

Frankly, the CAC option is a no-go.  You should not have awards that you are later forced to remove.  Career C/CMsgts are already a problem in CAP.

You also say "no other proposal is on the table, nor will it be"

That is pretty strong language.  Why not? 
Can't the CAC change their mind? Is CAC so inneficient that they cannot look at more than one option at a time?  Have select senior members hijacked the CAC with their own agendas?

Now, I'm a cadet programs officer with a whole lot of experience in the field... What I'll tell you is absolutely adults create, control, direct, and supervise that program toward the end of accomplishing the mission objectives. Items ancillary to that - ie. ribbons - are best left to cadet leadership to determine, of course with reasonable oversight. What I stated has been the long held position of the CAC system. I'd be VERY hesitant as a CAP officer to foist anything else on them from above.

Far as adult ribbons.... dang it, I'm walking down to my other computer right now. Hang on.... okay wait till morning.

Okay as promissed:

Primer
This eliminates 10 CAP awards (primarily low end of the spectrum), & creates two new ones, while adding access to 8 (non-combat) Air Force decorations (primarily high level unit awards or decorations for personal acts of valor in non-combat situations).

Red = AF awardable to civilians but requires combat.
Purple = Not awardable to civilians, but we'd like it to be for Aux (incl CGAux)
Green = Non-combat, awardable to civilians, like to align appvl auth thru CAP-USAF.
Blue = AF reg provides specific auth to award to CAP

Air Force Decorations

Airman's Medal: While serving in any capacity with the Air Force (AFAM), shall have distinguished by a heroic act, usually at the voluntary risk life but not involving actual combat. Appv Auth: MAJCOM/CC

Bronze Star
Purple Heart
Air Medal

Aerial Achievement Medal: awarded for sustained meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight. The achievements must be accomplished with distinction above and beyond that normally expected of professional airmen. Appv Auth: Rg/LO

Joint Meritorious Unit Award: Awarded for joint (multi-agency) activities for meritorious achievement or service, superior to that which is normally expected, for actions in a declared national emergency, or under extraordinary circumstances that involve national interests. Appv Auth: SecDef

Outstanding Unit Award: Awarded to numbered units which have distinguished themselves by exceptionally meritorious service or outstanding achievement that clearly sets the unit above and apart from similar units, the services include; performance of exceptionally meritorious service, accomplishment of a specific outstanding achievement of national or international significance. Appv Auth: SecAF

Air Force Organizational Excellence Award: Organizational Excellence award recognizes the achievements and accomplishments of unnumbered organizations or activities that perform functions normally performed by numbered wings, groups, squadrons, etc. Appv Auth: SecAF

Humanitarian Service: Distinguished by meritorious direct participation (hands on) in a significant military act or operation of a humanitarian nature, or have rendered a service to mankind. Geographically separated from incident or non-direct impact are excluded. Appv Auth: State Director

Outstanding Volunteer Service: Outstanding volunteer community service of a sustained, direct and consequential nature. Appv Auth: State Director

Small Arms Marksmanship: For qualification under AF regs with service pistol or rifle on mil range with DoD range control & certification. Appv Auth: DoD certified range control officer.

CAP Decorations

Distinguished Service Medal (BoG): distinguished by exceptionally meritorious service in a duty of great responsibility.

Silver Medal for Valor (Nat CC):  Gallantry & heroism with risk of life, distinctively above the level required for the bronze medal with valor.

Exceptional Service Award (Nat CC): distinguished by exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding services.

Bronze Medal (Reg CC): shall have distinguished himself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service. "V" device for valor.

CAP Meritorious Service Award (Reg CC): distinguishes by either outstanding achievement or meritorious service. Similar in standard to the Bronze medal of valor.

CAP Commendation Medal (Wg CC): The degree of merit must be distinctive, though it need not be unique; or, for acts of courage which do not involve the voluntary risk of life.

CAP Achievement Medal (Gp CC): For outstanding achievement or meritorious service. It may also be awarded for acts of courage lesser than for award of the CAP Commendation Medal.

Unit Citation Award: Same

CAP Operational Readiness Ribbon: Completion of a three year period of ES qualification in a GT or aircrew position, including participation in at least two actual or exercise missions per year in the specialty. Operational readiness is defined as being professionally and technically qualified for operational missions. Approving authority is concurrent with re-certification in the specialty for the next three year period.

CAP Recognition Ribbon: Awarded in recognition of annual awards (Sr Mbr of year, GT/aircrew of the year, PAO of the year, etc). Triangle clasps indicate additional Wg level awards, stars indicate additional region/nat level awards.

SaR Service Ribbon (previously find): Participation in actual search and rescue sorties

CN/HLS Service Ribbon: Participation in counter-drug &/or HLS sorties

Disaster Service Ribbon: Completion of disaster response training (revised for NIMS) & real world sorties/deployments

Longevity Ribbon (previously red service): Same as current standards.

Instructor Ribbon (previously encampment ribbon): 1) Completion of the CAP instructor course (AFIADL or in-res), tech rating in PD, and service as an instructor at at least two PD courses (UCC, SLS, CLC, TLC, etc); 2) Completion of a CP tech rating, TLC, and service as a TAC officer or instructor at an encampment; or, 3) Completion of a tech rating in AE & six months service as an AEO.

Recruiting Service Ribbon (previously recruiting ribbon): Recruit a min of ten new members, two years service as an RRO, and completion of the tech level of the RR specialty track. Bronze clasp for senior rating & service at Gp or higher level. Silver clasp for master rating & service at Wg or higher level.

PD Graduate Ribbon (previously Garber): For completion of Lvl II. Clasps for lvl3-5, triangle clasp indicates CAP PD courses (CLC, RSC, NSC), star indicates AFIADL courses (SOS, ACSC, AWC).

CAP Training Ribbon (previously mbrshp): Completion of level I, Tech level in an assigned specialty track, and six months service in that specialty.

[RiverAux]

Because it is one of the primary goals of the organization, I do think we need some sort of general lifesaving ribbon for aircrew and/or ground team members directly involved in the saving of a human life while on a CAP mission.  I don't think the certificate is really enough to recognize these situations.  Given the size of the membership and number of saves we have each year, it would be a fairly rare award and I would personally place it right below the Bronze Medal of Valor. 

[arajca]

I guess the mission base folks wouldn't qualify for the Op Ready ribbon.

[DNall]

I guess the mission base folks wouldn't qualify for the Op Ready ribbon.

The AF combat readiness ribbon is only for aircrews on aircraft that deploy weapons. I don't know how appropriate that is, but whatever.

In this case, I thought it appropriate to recognize experience as an operator & the staff that choose to stay current in what they're sending people to do. Rarely is there a staff member that has never been qual'd a GT or aircrew.

I do think we need some sort of general lifesaving ribbon

I don't disagree that it deserves recognition, and I do feel the gap btwn the current lifesaving & bronze medal is not a good thing. I really like the way the AF deals with this. They use commendation medals appropriate to the level of the action. So you could get anything from an ach award to a silver medal for valor. I got no problems putting a device on a commendation medal to designate valor/heroism/whatever, though I tend to prefer not using a "V" since that's combat related in the mil. M & E are readily avail devices used in the mil.

[RiverAux]

I understand what you're saying about the lifesaving award, but I think it is a unique achievement that deserves its own ribbon.  There is such a wide range of things that can be done to earn generic commendation or achievement ribbons that it would be lost in the shuffle.  As SAR is one of our primary missions, the "rescue" part of that equation deserves more recognition on those few occasions when we actually get to do it. 

[arajca]

I guess the mission base folks wouldn't qualify for the Op Ready ribbon.

The AF combat readiness ribbon is only for aircrews on aircraft that deploy weapons. I don't know how appropriate that is, but whatever.

In this case, I thought it appropriate to recognize experience as an operator & the staff that choose to stay current in what they're sending people to do. Rarely is there a staff member that has never been qual'd a GT or aircrew.

You are overlooking the times when a member shows up to participate as GT and ends up as GBD. Ditto with advanced aircrew personnel and AOBD. Your suggestion requires participation in the specialty, i.e going out with a GT or actually flying a sortie, not merely being qualified in it. Also consider IC's. Obviously they have both air and ground quals, but most do not regularly get out in the field or air at missions or exercises. By your limitations, you are saying that MB is not important.

PS. I know many MB staff who are not GT or aircrew qual'd.

[Major Carrales]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

[JayT]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

But Major! If we have Air Force Medals, then the Air Force will respect us more, we'll be able to wear military style uniforms for VSAF, we'll get better funding, none of our members will ever be out of uniforms, and our planes will fly faster, and longer!

[cnitas]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

But Major! If we have Air Force Medals, then the Air Force will respect us more, we'll be able to wear military style uniforms for VSAF, we'll get better funding, none of our members will ever be out of uniforms, and our planes will fly faster, and longer!

That may be so, but will our vans get better gas milage?

[DNall]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

But Major! If we have Air Force Medals, then the Air Force will respect us more, we'll be able to wear military style uniforms for VSAF, we'll get better funding, none of our members will ever be out of uniforms, and our planes will fly faster, and longer!

There are 10 of 78 AF ribbons on that list. 4 are unit citations awarded at the SecDef/SecAF level. You recall after Katrina when CGAux got a real mil Presidential unit citation but CAP had to make up an internal award cause the govt had no way to recognize us. An AF reg specifically directs that one ribbon be awarded to CAP members. Another was developed for civilian aviators & non-combat flight service. The other 3-4 are highly appropriate to CAP service & I'd ask to make awardable to CAP.

Hundreds of these are awarded to civilians every year, mostly to civil service & contractors, but some random folks off the street as well, but not CAP in spite of our affiliation with the AF.

Do you have a problem with the govt gaining the ability to recognize our people individually for their service? Maybe patting yourself on the back is satisfying to you, I don't know. For a lot of members though, the govt even knowing they're alive, not to mention reaching down to recognize them personally for their contribution... that's huge for morale.

And, I'm actually in the military, and the thing is I actually get punished in a way for my CAP service. See, I get awards for periods of service, and you can't get two awards for the same period. So, they may like my mil service, and they may like my CAP service, but they can't recognize them both, and you can't add them together to get a higher award. So I get nothing half of what I do, I get less recognition than I deserve. And, this isn't about silly ribbons. That crap means promotion points to people like me, it's a deciding factor in what jobs & units I get assigned to, it's a big deal to my career & life. If you separate that system so that my command can recognize my mil service, and CAP-USAF can recognize my CAP service, then I suddenly have a huge incentive to actively contribute. That's going to get you a lot more support from the mil. It's going to help retain cadets who join the mil, and it's going to help hold onto people after they leave the mil.

[DNall]

I understand what you're saying about the lifesaving award, but I think it is a unique achievement...

First, we're not currently a rescue agency. We search & find mostly nothing, sometimes bodies, extremely rarely a survivor. Someone else then comes to save them, we're not allowed to. In other words, we're not remotely a lifesaving agency.

The current lifesaving award is so generic it loses meaning. You can get it for the most piss ant stuff. Then there's a huge gap up to bronze medal. I understand an ach award is not rare for periods of service or single distinguished acts. That's what this is, a single distinguished act of whatever merit level. Like I said, I got no problem attaching a standard device to show valor or whatever.

You are overlooking the times when a member shows up to participate as GT and ends up as GBD. Ditto with advanced aircrew personnel and AOBD. Your suggestion requires participation in the specialty, i.e going out with a GT or actually flying a sortie, not merely being qualified in it. Also consider IC's. Obviously they have both air and ground quals, but most do not regularly get out in the field or air at missions or exercises. By your limitations, you are saying that MB is not important.

PS. I know many MB staff who are not GT or aircrew qual'd.

It's rare to meet a staff mbr who has NEVER been qual'd in GT or aircrew. And you know that staff member is better at their job by knowing what the person in the field is going thru, and I don't mean the way we used to do it 20 years ago. This is service/experience stripes (clasps) for field personnel. It's not a replacement for the SaR ribbon, that's still around. Now, we can debate the requirements, but you can't very well stay current & in tune with a specialty if you don't do it every now & then.

[JayT]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

But Major! If we have Air Force Medals, then the Air Force will respect us more, we'll be able to wear military style uniforms for VSAF, we'll get better funding, none of our members will ever be out of uniforms, and our planes will fly faster, and longer!

There are 10 of 78 AF ribbons on that list. 4 are unit citations awarded at the SecDef/SecAF level. You recall after Katrina when CGAux got a real mil Presidential unit citation but CAP had to make up an internal award cause the govt had no way to recognize us. An AF reg specifically directs that one ribbon be awarded to CAP members. Another was developed for civilian aviators & non-combat flight service. The other 3-4 are highly appropriate to CAP service & I'd ask to make awardable to CAP.

Hundreds of these are awarded to civilians every year, mostly to civil service & contractors, but some random folks off the street as well, but not CAP in spite of our affiliation with the AF.

Do you have a problem with the govt gaining the ability to recognize our people individually for their service? Maybe patting yourself on the back is satisfying to you, I don't know. For a lot of members though, the govt even knowing they're alive, not to mention reaching down to recognize them personally for their contribution... that's huge for morale.

And, I'm actually in the military, and the thing is I actually get punished in a way for my CAP service. See, I get awards for periods of service, and you can't get two awards for the same period. So, they may like my mil service, and they may like my CAP service, but they can't recognize them both, and you can't add them together to get a higher award. So I get nothing half of what I do, I get less recognition than I deserve. And, this isn't about silly ribbons. That crap means promotion points to people like me, it's a deciding factor in what jobs & units I get assigned to, it's a big deal to my career & life. If you separate that system so that my command can recognize my mil service, and CAP-USAF can recognize my CAP service, then I suddenly have a huge incentive to actively contribute. That's going to get you a lot more support from the mil. It's going to help retain cadets who join the mil, and it's going to help hold onto people after they leave the mil.

I don't have a problem with CAP people getting Air Force awards. I don't even have a problem with CAP members wearing them.

But to cash in all of our ribbons to go to Air Force ribbons, as some people are suggesting/supporting, will do nothing but get us odd looks from our regular military brothers and sisters.

And, if I read you're post right, you're saying that if CAP goes to military decs, that you will recieve promotion points, etc etc. If so, what about us civilian types who can't serve for health reasons? How do I put an Air Force medal on my resume and then explain how I'm not actually in the Air Force?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

But Major! If we have Air Force Medals, then the Air Force will respect us more, we'll be able to wear military style uniforms for VSAF, we'll get better funding, none of our members will ever be out of uniforms, and our planes will fly faster, and longer!

There are 10 of 78 AF ribbons on that list. 4 are unit citations awarded at the SecDef/SecAF level. You recall after Katrina when CGAux got a real mil Presidential unit citation but CAP had to make up an internal award cause the govt had no way to recognize us. An AF reg specifically directs that one ribbon be awarded to CAP members. Another was developed for civilian aviators & non-combat flight service. The other 3-4 are highly appropriate to CAP service & I'd ask to make awardable to CAP.

Hundreds of these are awarded to civilians every year, mostly to civil service & contractors, but some random folks off the street as well, but not CAP in spite of our affiliation with the AF.

Do you have a problem with the govt gaining the ability to recognize our people individually for their service? Maybe patting yourself on the back is satisfying to you, I don't know. For a lot of members though, the govt even knowing they're alive, not to mention reaching down to recognize them personally for their contribution... that's huge for morale.

And, I'm actually in the military, and the thing is I actually get punished in a way for my CAP service. See, I get awards for periods of service, and you can't get two awards for the same period. So, they may like my mil service, and they may like my CAP service, but they can't recognize them both, and you can't add them together to get a higher award. So I get nothing half of what I do, I get less recognition than I deserve. And, this isn't about silly ribbons. That crap means promotion points to people like me, it's a deciding factor in what jobs & units I get assigned to, it's a big deal to my career & life. If you separate that system so that my command can recognize my mil service, and CAP-USAF can recognize my CAP service, then I suddenly have a huge incentive to actively contribute. That's going to get you a lot more support from the mil. It's going to help retain cadets who join the mil, and it's going to help hold onto people after they leave the mil.

I don't have a problem with CAP people getting Air Force awards. I don't even have a problem with CAP members wearing them.

But to cash in all of our ribbons to go to Air Force ribbons, as some people are suggesting/supporting, will do nothing but get us odd looks from our regular military brothers and sisters.

And, if I read you're post right, you're saying that if CAP goes to military decs, that you will recieve promotion points, etc etc. If so, what about us civilian types who can't serve for health reasons? How do I put an Air Force medal on my resume and then explain how I'm not actually in the Air Force?

You tell them that you earned the award an an officer in the Air Force Auxiliary, where you serve as a volunteer.  Any employer worth working for will be favorably impressed.

[DNall]

I don't have a problem with CAP people getting Air Force awards. I don't even have a problem with CAP members wearing them.

But to cash in all of our ribbons to go to Air Force ribbons, as some people are suggesting/supporting, will do nothing but get us odd looks from our regular military brothers and sisters.

Did you read the list I posted? It says 10 low end CAP decs taken away, 10 mostly higher AF decs added. The overall result being a reduction in the worthless excess while giving AF/govt an easier method of recognizing members.

The AF decs I'd actually like to add are:
recognition > Nat SM & cdt of the year, awarded by CAP-USAF/CC in name of CSAF
Achievement > by state dir
commendation > Region LO
Merit serv > CAP-USAF/CC
*Airman's medal > AETC/CC (heroic lifesaving kind of thing)
Legion of Merit > CSAF
Dist Serv > SecAF

And, if I read you're post right, you're saying that if CAP goes to military decs, that you will recieve promotion points, etc etc. If so, what about us civilian types who can't serve for health reasons? How do I put an Air Force medal on my resume and then explain how I'm not actually in the Air Force?

You put it on your resume & explain how you are in CAP, not to mention your CAP ldrshp/mgmt trng & experience. Why would you not do that?

What I'm saying about the mil side is they highly value my work with CAP, and they want to recognize me for that, but in order to do so they have to not recognize my mil service. It's one or the other. So, if almost everyone int he unit gets an award for a period of service, but I don't, because I got an award for what I did with CAP, then people are going to look at that later & think I wasn't doing my job on the mil side. When in actuality I should be getting more promotion points than my peers for my going above & beyond thru my volunteer service in CAP at whatever merit level. Does that make sense?

Awards are about incentivising behavior. That's really what matters.

[RiverAux]

You recall after Katrina when CGAux got a real mil Presidential unit citation but CAP had to make up an internal award cause the govt had no way to recognize us.

Technically, the Presidential Unit Citation was given to the United States Coast Guard as a whole, including Auxiliary members.  Small difference. 

First, we're not currently a rescue agency. We search & find mostly nothing, sometimes bodies, extremely rarely a survivor. Someone else then comes to save them, we're not allowed to. In other words, we're not remotely a lifesaving agency.

You're confusing providing lifesaving medical care with finding someone in a lifethreatening situation and causing them to be removed from it either by ourselves or by others that we direct to the site.  That is lifesaving in my book.  As long as what the AFRCC is calling the results of these situations "Saves", I think that is hard to ignore.