Revamping CAP decorations.

[Hawk200]

A thread dedicated to some questions: Do we revamp our system, request eligibility for Air Force awards/decs, or both?

[JayT]

Revamp. Get ride of all achievement ribbons for cadets, and recduce Senior Memeber PD ribbons to a single one.

[Flying Pig]

Why does it matter?

[JayT]

Why does it matter?

It doesn't.

[LtCol White]

why would u want to eliminate the cadet achievement ribbons?

[JayT]

why would u want to eliminate the cadet achievement ribbons?

I think sir, we're giving out two awards for the same thing (with all but a few achievements.)

When a cadet pases Achievement One, he/she gets got both a stripe and a ribbon. Isn't that kind of redudant? We all know a Cadet Staff Sergeant has achievements One, Two, Three, and Four, just by their collar brass.

If it was my choice, it would be ribbons at C/SSgt, C/2d Lt, C/Capt, and a full medal for the Spaatz award.

When I was a C/2d Lt, I had something like twenty ribbons pinned to my jacket!

[LtCol White]

When you are older you tend to see things as redundant but to the 12 yr old cadet, its a motivator and a big deal. It would be a very bad idea to eliminate those. There ARE some senior ribbons that could prob be dropped but I definitely wouldn't elminate any of the cadet ones.

[DNall]

^second... and tmrw some time I'll get that list posted of adult awards that I put together. I think it'll make some sense to most folks.

[Snake Doctor]

Changing Officer PD ribbons as you earn the next higher level would be better.  Eliminate the subordinate CP ribbons after earning each milestone award.

[SAR-EMT1]

I've read the criteria for the USAF's old ECI ribbon. However I cant find the reason it was done away with.
I curious if it could be brought back for our use. If we had that we could kill ribbons for the top PD levels. (Except the Wilson)

[cnitas]

Changing Officer PD ribbons as you earn the next higher level would be better.  Eliminate the subordinate CP ribbons after earning each milestone award.

I believe having 1 single ribbon with a device denoting your PD level would be a better way to go. 

On the cadet side I would reduce the achievement ribbons to coorespond to our milestones:
Curry
Wright
Mitchell
Earhart
Eaker
Spaatz

[Tim Medeiros]

there are a few questions that come to mind when a topic like this comes up.

1) Why?
2) What benefit would this have on the total membership, beyond cost?
3) Again, Why?

[cnitas]

1.  Why?  - To present a more professional appearance more in line with our AF brethren (and less like Bolivian admirals). 

2.  Why? - Less cost to members is a good thing.

3. Why? - It might also make those ribbons that cadets earn mean just a little more to them than they do now.

[ColonelJack]

I mean no disrespect to those whose opinions will differ from mine, but if I have ever read of a solution seeking a problem, this one is it.

There is no real reason to revamp CAP ribbons and decorations, is there?

My rack sums up 16 years of CAP service with 14 ribbons.  That doesn't strike me as too many.  Remember, the regs say, "Wear all, some, or none" except on the service coat, where it's "wear all or some."  If you have so many ribbons that you look like a Bolivian admiral, then by all means don't wear all of your ribbons.  And if adding together your AD and CAP ribbons gives you nine rows of four, or whatever, then select the ones that best represent you and wear them.  Leave the rest off.

But for heaven's sake ... can we stop trying to re-invent the wheel?  The decs are what they are.  Let 'em alone.

Jack

[Timothy]

I tend to agree that it would not be terribly necessary. If we can indeed choose to wear or omit certain earned ribbons from wear then it is easy for each member to avoid the "admiral" look if they choose to. You could also choose to only wear your highest PD ribbon, or only wear commendations and/or operational ribbons, like the SAR, Find, etc.

I like how the newer ribbons being designed are using more traditional AF colors, like greys and blues, as opposed to orange or (shudder) purple.

I'm not a big fan of the leadership ribbon colors (blech), but that is just personal preference I suppose. Likewise, I find the order of importance strange in certain cases; such as the membership ribbon being more important than all operational ribbons (SAR, CD, Disaster relief, Find).  I would put operational ribbons above PD, as these involve personal risk, or at the very least, put the membership ribbon at dead last in importance.

But besides making more sense (to me) and looking a little less ugly (to me), there is no pressing reason for even these small changes. If you are talking about a complete overhaul to angularly mirror AF decs, or to try and incorporate AF awards into CAP (like AF Comm, or aerial achievement) now would probably not be the best time, with all the uniform chaos going on... though I suppose that some would argue that now would be THE time to do it, while everything else is being tweaked.

[BillB]

Col White, The National Cadet Advisory Council has recommended at least three times I'm aware of that only cadet milestone ribbons be awarded and worn. The Achievement ribbons be dropped. This follows the 1943 cadet program with only a red, white and blue training ribbon plus COP. Of course you'll find cadets wanting as much bling as possible, but I'd say overall they are in the minority.

[ZigZag911]

1.  Why?  - To present a more professional appearance more in line with our AF brethren (and less like Bolivian admirals). 

2.  Why? - Less cost to members is a good thing.

3. Why? - It might also make those ribbons that cadets earn mean just a little more to them than they do now.

I'm not entirely sure I agree that the AF "clean look" is necessarily more professional; the Army wears all kinds of badges and bling.....surely you are not suggesting that they are somehow less professional?

I mean, frankly, the USAF uniform is about as interesting as a Greyhound bus driver's (I feel I've over-used the US Postal Service analogy!)...besides, the 'less is more' philosophy in AF uniforms really seemed to emphasize two points:

First, "we're not the Army anymore"

Second, "Look, Ma, I've got WINGS!!!!"

By the way (and I'm sort of ambivalent on cadet ribbons for each achievement, even WIWAC it did seem like double rewards, rank & ribbon....but then I was well along in high school when I became a cadet), I was under the impression that all our cadets earned all their awards already....so why will giving them fewer make them feel these are somehow more deserved???

[Cecil DP]

Revamp. Get ride of all achievement ribbons for cadets, and recduce Senior Memeber PD ribbons to a single one.

National actually passed that one about 20 years ago. It lasted about 3 months befre it was rescinded.

[Cecil DP]

Changing Officer PD ribbons as you earn the next higher level would be better.  Eliminate the subordinate CP ribbons after earning each milestone award.

The ECI ribbon was a CAP Award. BG DuPont, the National Commander at the time thought we had too many ribbons and ditched it along with many others to include the Organizer and Cadre ribbons, all the special activity ribbons (there was a different ribbon for every one) and the encampment ribbon.

[DC]

While the cadet achievement ribbons do seems to be a waste of cloth to older/more expereinced cadets, to a brand new 12 year old cadet it is cool bling they can show off to their friends. Most of the cadet officers I know only wear their milestones, or they don't wear any ribbons at all...

My opinion: the achievement ribbons do get to be a bit much, but at the same time they can be a motivator to new cadets. It is strange when you have a 14 year old C/CMSgt with more ribbons and badges than an AD USAF Colonel... I have mixed feelings. I wouldn't cry if they were eliminated, but I don't necessarily think they should go..

[DNall]

Let me say this again... adults are NOT going to be the driving force on cadet ribbons. That is not negotiable. The national CAC backs a proposal that says all cadet achievement ribbons stay as is, upon reaching C/officer the enlisted ach ribbons come off & just milestones are worn. no other proposal is on the table, nor will it be.

Far as adult ribbons.... dang it, I'm walking down to my other computer right now. Hang on.... okay wait till morning.

[Flying Pig]

I dont know who any of these people are, I found them on the internet, but in comparison, I dont think CAP is on anyones radar for cadets having to many decorations.  And this Army cadet is pretty mild compared to most ROTC cadets Ive seen.  But what I do notice is that the CAP cadets arent wearing many of their achievement ribbons.

[BillB]

Under the old 39-1, cadets could wear all-some-none of their ribbons. the current 39-1, dropped the "some" and "none" If cadets through the CAC say drop the achievement ribbons it would seem that seniors, read that the National Board, should agree and change 39-1. When a rack includes the achievement ribbons, it lessens the value of the milestone ribbons. On the average cadet rack, can you find the Mitchell or Earhart ribbons? Granted cadets woul remove some of the bling on a ribbon rack, but the remaining ribbons have more value.

[cnitas]

Let me say this again... adults are NOT going to be the driving force on cadet ribbons. That is not negotiable. The national CAC backs a proposal that says all cadet achievement ribbons stay as is, upon reaching C/officer the enlisted ach ribbons come off & just milestones are worn. no other proposal is on the table, nor will it be.

Far as adult ribbons.... dang it, I'm walking down to my other computer right now. Hang on.... okay wait till morning.

Adults should design the framework of the cadet program and supervise the cadets as they operate within it.  Awards are a part of the framework.

Frankly, the CAC option is a no-go.  You should not have awards that you are later forced to remove.  Career C/CMsgts are already a problem in CAP.

You also say "no other proposal is on the table, nor will it be"

That is pretty strong language.  Why not? 
Can't the CAC change their mind? Is CAC so inneficient that they cannot look at more than one option at a time?  Have select senior members hijacked the CAC with their own agendas?

[cnitas]

I dont know who any of these people are, I found them on the internet, but in comparison, I dont think CAP is on anyones radar for cadets having to many decorations.  And this Army cadet is pretty mild compared to most ROTC cadets Ive seen.  But what I do notice is that the CAP cadets arent wearing many of their achievement ribbons.

The cadet is only wearing the mitchell, Earhart, Eaker, and Spaatz.
If you add the achievements back, the guy would be wearing 21 ribbons.

[DNall]

Let me say this again... adults are NOT going to be the driving force on cadet ribbons. That is not negotiable. The national CAC backs a proposal that says all cadet achievement ribbons stay as is, upon reaching C/officer the enlisted ach ribbons come off & just milestones are worn. no other proposal is on the table, nor will it be.

Adults should design the framework of the cadet program and supervise the cadets as they operate within it.  Awards are a part of the framework.

Frankly, the CAC option is a no-go.  You should not have awards that you are later forced to remove.  Career C/CMsgts are already a problem in CAP.

You also say "no other proposal is on the table, nor will it be"

That is pretty strong language.  Why not? 
Can't the CAC change their mind? Is CAC so inneficient that they cannot look at more than one option at a time?  Have select senior members hijacked the CAC with their own agendas?

Now, I'm a cadet programs officer with a whole lot of experience in the field... What I'll tell you is absolutely adults create, control, direct, and supervise that program toward the end of accomplishing the mission objectives. Items ancillary to that - ie. ribbons - are best left to cadet leadership to determine, of course with reasonable oversight. What I stated has been the long held position of the CAC system. I'd be VERY hesitant as a CAP officer to foist anything else on them from above.

Far as adult ribbons.... dang it, I'm walking down to my other computer right now. Hang on.... okay wait till morning.

Okay as promissed:

Primer
This eliminates 10 CAP awards (primarily low end of the spectrum), & creates two new ones, while adding access to 8 (non-combat) Air Force decorations (primarily high level unit awards or decorations for personal acts of valor in non-combat situations).

Red = AF awardable to civilians but requires combat.
Purple = Not awardable to civilians, but we'd like it to be for Aux (incl CGAux)
Green = Non-combat, awardable to civilians, like to align appvl auth thru CAP-USAF.
Blue = AF reg provides specific auth to award to CAP

Air Force Decorations

Airman's Medal: While serving in any capacity with the Air Force (AFAM), shall have distinguished by a heroic act, usually at the voluntary risk life but not involving actual combat. Appv Auth: MAJCOM/CC

Bronze Star
Purple Heart
Air Medal

Aerial Achievement Medal: awarded for sustained meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight. The achievements must be accomplished with distinction above and beyond that normally expected of professional airmen. Appv Auth: Rg/LO

Joint Meritorious Unit Award: Awarded for joint (multi-agency) activities for meritorious achievement or service, superior to that which is normally expected, for actions in a declared national emergency, or under extraordinary circumstances that involve national interests. Appv Auth: SecDef

Outstanding Unit Award: Awarded to numbered units which have distinguished themselves by exceptionally meritorious service or outstanding achievement that clearly sets the unit above and apart from similar units, the services include; performance of exceptionally meritorious service, accomplishment of a specific outstanding achievement of national or international significance. Appv Auth: SecAF

Air Force Organizational Excellence Award: Organizational Excellence award recognizes the achievements and accomplishments of unnumbered organizations or activities that perform functions normally performed by numbered wings, groups, squadrons, etc. Appv Auth: SecAF

Humanitarian Service: Distinguished by meritorious direct participation (hands on) in a significant military act or operation of a humanitarian nature, or have rendered a service to mankind. Geographically separated from incident or non-direct impact are excluded. Appv Auth: State Director

Outstanding Volunteer Service: Outstanding volunteer community service of a sustained, direct and consequential nature. Appv Auth: State Director

Small Arms Marksmanship: For qualification under AF regs with service pistol or rifle on mil range with DoD range control & certification. Appv Auth: DoD certified range control officer.

CAP Decorations

Distinguished Service Medal (BoG): distinguished by exceptionally meritorious service in a duty of great responsibility.

Silver Medal for Valor (Nat CC):  Gallantry & heroism with risk of life, distinctively above the level required for the bronze medal with valor.

Exceptional Service Award (Nat CC): distinguished by exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding services.

Bronze Medal (Reg CC): shall have distinguished himself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service. "V" device for valor.

CAP Meritorious Service Award (Reg CC): distinguishes by either outstanding achievement or meritorious service. Similar in standard to the Bronze medal of valor.

CAP Commendation Medal (Wg CC): The degree of merit must be distinctive, though it need not be unique; or, for acts of courage which do not involve the voluntary risk of life.

CAP Achievement Medal (Gp CC): For outstanding achievement or meritorious service. It may also be awarded for acts of courage lesser than for award of the CAP Commendation Medal.

Unit Citation Award: Same

CAP Operational Readiness Ribbon: Completion of a three year period of ES qualification in a GT or aircrew position, including participation in at least two actual or exercise missions per year in the specialty. Operational readiness is defined as being professionally and technically qualified for operational missions. Approving authority is concurrent with re-certification in the specialty for the next three year period.

CAP Recognition Ribbon: Awarded in recognition of annual awards (Sr Mbr of year, GT/aircrew of the year, PAO of the year, etc). Triangle clasps indicate additional Wg level awards, stars indicate additional region/nat level awards.

SaR Service Ribbon (previously find): Participation in actual search and rescue sorties

CN/HLS Service Ribbon: Participation in counter-drug &/or HLS sorties

Disaster Service Ribbon: Completion of disaster response training (revised for NIMS) & real world sorties/deployments

Longevity Ribbon (previously red service): Same as current standards.

Instructor Ribbon (previously encampment ribbon): 1) Completion of the CAP instructor course (AFIADL or in-res), tech rating in PD, and service as an instructor at at least two PD courses (UCC, SLS, CLC, TLC, etc); 2) Completion of a CP tech rating, TLC, and service as a TAC officer or instructor at an encampment; or, 3) Completion of a tech rating in AE & six months service as an AEO.

Recruiting Service Ribbon (previously recruiting ribbon): Recruit a min of ten new members, two years service as an RRO, and completion of the tech level of the RR specialty track. Bronze clasp for senior rating & service at Gp or higher level. Silver clasp for master rating & service at Wg or higher level.

PD Graduate Ribbon (previously Garber): For completion of Lvl II. Clasps for lvl3-5, triangle clasp indicates CAP PD courses (CLC, RSC, NSC), star indicates AFIADL courses (SOS, ACSC, AWC).

CAP Training Ribbon (previously mbrshp): Completion of level I, Tech level in an assigned specialty track, and six months service in that specialty.

[RiverAux]

Because it is one of the primary goals of the organization, I do think we need some sort of general lifesaving ribbon for aircrew and/or ground team members directly involved in the saving of a human life while on a CAP mission.  I don't think the certificate is really enough to recognize these situations.  Given the size of the membership and number of saves we have each year, it would be a fairly rare award and I would personally place it right below the Bronze Medal of Valor. 

[arajca]

I guess the mission base folks wouldn't qualify for the Op Ready ribbon.

[DNall]

I guess the mission base folks wouldn't qualify for the Op Ready ribbon.

The AF combat readiness ribbon is only for aircrews on aircraft that deploy weapons. I don't know how appropriate that is, but whatever.

In this case, I thought it appropriate to recognize experience as an operator & the staff that choose to stay current in what they're sending people to do. Rarely is there a staff member that has never been qual'd a GT or aircrew.

I do think we need some sort of general lifesaving ribbon

I don't disagree that it deserves recognition, and I do feel the gap btwn the current lifesaving & bronze medal is not a good thing. I really like the way the AF deals with this. They use commendation medals appropriate to the level of the action. So you could get anything from an ach award to a silver medal for valor. I got no problems putting a device on a commendation medal to designate valor/heroism/whatever, though I tend to prefer not using a "V" since that's combat related in the mil. M & E are readily avail devices used in the mil.

[RiverAux]

I understand what you're saying about the lifesaving award, but I think it is a unique achievement that deserves its own ribbon.  There is such a wide range of things that can be done to earn generic commendation or achievement ribbons that it would be lost in the shuffle.  As SAR is one of our primary missions, the "rescue" part of that equation deserves more recognition on those few occasions when we actually get to do it. 

[arajca]

I guess the mission base folks wouldn't qualify for the Op Ready ribbon.

The AF combat readiness ribbon is only for aircrews on aircraft that deploy weapons. I don't know how appropriate that is, but whatever.

In this case, I thought it appropriate to recognize experience as an operator & the staff that choose to stay current in what they're sending people to do. Rarely is there a staff member that has never been qual'd a GT or aircrew.

You are overlooking the times when a member shows up to participate as GT and ends up as GBD. Ditto with advanced aircrew personnel and AOBD. Your suggestion requires participation in the specialty, i.e going out with a GT or actually flying a sortie, not merely being qualified in it. Also consider IC's. Obviously they have both air and ground quals, but most do not regularly get out in the field or air at missions or exercises. By your limitations, you are saying that MB is not important.

PS. I know many MB staff who are not GT or aircrew qual'd.

[Major Carrales]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

[JayT]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

But Major! If we have Air Force Medals, then the Air Force will respect us more, we'll be able to wear military style uniforms for VSAF, we'll get better funding, none of our members will ever be out of uniforms, and our planes will fly faster, and longer!

[cnitas]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

But Major! If we have Air Force Medals, then the Air Force will respect us more, we'll be able to wear military style uniforms for VSAF, we'll get better funding, none of our members will ever be out of uniforms, and our planes will fly faster, and longer!

That may be so, but will our vans get better gas milage?

[DNall]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

But Major! If we have Air Force Medals, then the Air Force will respect us more, we'll be able to wear military style uniforms for VSAF, we'll get better funding, none of our members will ever be out of uniforms, and our planes will fly faster, and longer!

There are 10 of 78 AF ribbons on that list. 4 are unit citations awarded at the SecDef/SecAF level. You recall after Katrina when CGAux got a real mil Presidential unit citation but CAP had to make up an internal award cause the govt had no way to recognize us. An AF reg specifically directs that one ribbon be awarded to CAP members. Another was developed for civilian aviators & non-combat flight service. The other 3-4 are highly appropriate to CAP service & I'd ask to make awardable to CAP.

Hundreds of these are awarded to civilians every year, mostly to civil service & contractors, but some random folks off the street as well, but not CAP in spite of our affiliation with the AF.

Do you have a problem with the govt gaining the ability to recognize our people individually for their service? Maybe patting yourself on the back is satisfying to you, I don't know. For a lot of members though, the govt even knowing they're alive, not to mention reaching down to recognize them personally for their contribution... that's huge for morale.

And, I'm actually in the military, and the thing is I actually get punished in a way for my CAP service. See, I get awards for periods of service, and you can't get two awards for the same period. So, they may like my mil service, and they may like my CAP service, but they can't recognize them both, and you can't add them together to get a higher award. So I get nothing half of what I do, I get less recognition than I deserve. And, this isn't about silly ribbons. That crap means promotion points to people like me, it's a deciding factor in what jobs & units I get assigned to, it's a big deal to my career & life. If you separate that system so that my command can recognize my mil service, and CAP-USAF can recognize my CAP service, then I suddenly have a huge incentive to actively contribute. That's going to get you a lot more support from the mil. It's going to help retain cadets who join the mil, and it's going to help hold onto people after they leave the mil.

[DNall]

I understand what you're saying about the lifesaving award, but I think it is a unique achievement...

First, we're not currently a rescue agency. We search & find mostly nothing, sometimes bodies, extremely rarely a survivor. Someone else then comes to save them, we're not allowed to. In other words, we're not remotely a lifesaving agency.

The current lifesaving award is so generic it loses meaning. You can get it for the most piss ant stuff. Then there's a huge gap up to bronze medal. I understand an ach award is not rare for periods of service or single distinguished acts. That's what this is, a single distinguished act of whatever merit level. Like I said, I got no problem attaching a standard device to show valor or whatever.

You are overlooking the times when a member shows up to participate as GT and ends up as GBD. Ditto with advanced aircrew personnel and AOBD. Your suggestion requires participation in the specialty, i.e going out with a GT or actually flying a sortie, not merely being qualified in it. Also consider IC's. Obviously they have both air and ground quals, but most do not regularly get out in the field or air at missions or exercises. By your limitations, you are saying that MB is not important.

PS. I know many MB staff who are not GT or aircrew qual'd.

It's rare to meet a staff mbr who has NEVER been qual'd in GT or aircrew. And you know that staff member is better at their job by knowing what the person in the field is going thru, and I don't mean the way we used to do it 20 years ago. This is service/experience stripes (clasps) for field personnel. It's not a replacement for the SaR ribbon, that's still around. Now, we can debate the requirements, but you can't very well stay current & in tune with a specialty if you don't do it every now & then.

[JayT]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

But Major! If we have Air Force Medals, then the Air Force will respect us more, we'll be able to wear military style uniforms for VSAF, we'll get better funding, none of our members will ever be out of uniforms, and our planes will fly faster, and longer!

There are 10 of 78 AF ribbons on that list. 4 are unit citations awarded at the SecDef/SecAF level. You recall after Katrina when CGAux got a real mil Presidential unit citation but CAP had to make up an internal award cause the govt had no way to recognize us. An AF reg specifically directs that one ribbon be awarded to CAP members. Another was developed for civilian aviators & non-combat flight service. The other 3-4 are highly appropriate to CAP service & I'd ask to make awardable to CAP.

Hundreds of these are awarded to civilians every year, mostly to civil service & contractors, but some random folks off the street as well, but not CAP in spite of our affiliation with the AF.

Do you have a problem with the govt gaining the ability to recognize our people individually for their service? Maybe patting yourself on the back is satisfying to you, I don't know. For a lot of members though, the govt even knowing they're alive, not to mention reaching down to recognize them personally for their contribution... that's huge for morale.

And, I'm actually in the military, and the thing is I actually get punished in a way for my CAP service. See, I get awards for periods of service, and you can't get two awards for the same period. So, they may like my mil service, and they may like my CAP service, but they can't recognize them both, and you can't add them together to get a higher award. So I get nothing half of what I do, I get less recognition than I deserve. And, this isn't about silly ribbons. That crap means promotion points to people like me, it's a deciding factor in what jobs & units I get assigned to, it's a big deal to my career & life. If you separate that system so that my command can recognize my mil service, and CAP-USAF can recognize my CAP service, then I suddenly have a huge incentive to actively contribute. That's going to get you a lot more support from the mil. It's going to help retain cadets who join the mil, and it's going to help hold onto people after they leave the mil.

I don't have a problem with CAP people getting Air Force awards. I don't even have a problem with CAP members wearing them.

But to cash in all of our ribbons to go to Air Force ribbons, as some people are suggesting/supporting, will do nothing but get us odd looks from our regular military brothers and sisters.

And, if I read you're post right, you're saying that if CAP goes to military decs, that you will recieve promotion points, etc etc. If so, what about us civilian types who can't serve for health reasons? How do I put an Air Force medal on my resume and then explain how I'm not actually in the Air Force?

[JohnKachenmeister]

Sorry, I think we have just enough ribbon, we don't need to add nor delete.

But Major! If we have Air Force Medals, then the Air Force will respect us more, we'll be able to wear military style uniforms for VSAF, we'll get better funding, none of our members will ever be out of uniforms, and our planes will fly faster, and longer!

There are 10 of 78 AF ribbons on that list. 4 are unit citations awarded at the SecDef/SecAF level. You recall after Katrina when CGAux got a real mil Presidential unit citation but CAP had to make up an internal award cause the govt had no way to recognize us. An AF reg specifically directs that one ribbon be awarded to CAP members. Another was developed for civilian aviators & non-combat flight service. The other 3-4 are highly appropriate to CAP service & I'd ask to make awardable to CAP.

Hundreds of these are awarded to civilians every year, mostly to civil service & contractors, but some random folks off the street as well, but not CAP in spite of our affiliation with the AF.

Do you have a problem with the govt gaining the ability to recognize our people individually for their service? Maybe patting yourself on the back is satisfying to you, I don't know. For a lot of members though, the govt even knowing they're alive, not to mention reaching down to recognize them personally for their contribution... that's huge for morale.

And, I'm actually in the military, and the thing is I actually get punished in a way for my CAP service. See, I get awards for periods of service, and you can't get two awards for the same period. So, they may like my mil service, and they may like my CAP service, but they can't recognize them both, and you can't add them together to get a higher award. So I get nothing half of what I do, I get less recognition than I deserve. And, this isn't about silly ribbons. That crap means promotion points to people like me, it's a deciding factor in what jobs & units I get assigned to, it's a big deal to my career & life. If you separate that system so that my command can recognize my mil service, and CAP-USAF can recognize my CAP service, then I suddenly have a huge incentive to actively contribute. That's going to get you a lot more support from the mil. It's going to help retain cadets who join the mil, and it's going to help hold onto people after they leave the mil.

I don't have a problem with CAP people getting Air Force awards. I don't even have a problem with CAP members wearing them.

But to cash in all of our ribbons to go to Air Force ribbons, as some people are suggesting/supporting, will do nothing but get us odd looks from our regular military brothers and sisters.

And, if I read you're post right, you're saying that if CAP goes to military decs, that you will recieve promotion points, etc etc. If so, what about us civilian types who can't serve for health reasons? How do I put an Air Force medal on my resume and then explain how I'm not actually in the Air Force?

You tell them that you earned the award an an officer in the Air Force Auxiliary, where you serve as a volunteer.  Any employer worth working for will be favorably impressed.

[DNall]

I don't have a problem with CAP people getting Air Force awards. I don't even have a problem with CAP members wearing them.

But to cash in all of our ribbons to go to Air Force ribbons, as some people are suggesting/supporting, will do nothing but get us odd looks from our regular military brothers and sisters.

Did you read the list I posted? It says 10 low end CAP decs taken away, 10 mostly higher AF decs added. The overall result being a reduction in the worthless excess while giving AF/govt an easier method of recognizing members.

The AF decs I'd actually like to add are:
recognition > Nat SM & cdt of the year, awarded by CAP-USAF/CC in name of CSAF
Achievement > by state dir
commendation > Region LO
Merit serv > CAP-USAF/CC
*Airman's medal > AETC/CC (heroic lifesaving kind of thing)
Legion of Merit > CSAF
Dist Serv > SecAF

And, if I read you're post right, you're saying that if CAP goes to military decs, that you will recieve promotion points, etc etc. If so, what about us civilian types who can't serve for health reasons? How do I put an Air Force medal on my resume and then explain how I'm not actually in the Air Force?

You put it on your resume & explain how you are in CAP, not to mention your CAP ldrshp/mgmt trng & experience. Why would you not do that?

What I'm saying about the mil side is they highly value my work with CAP, and they want to recognize me for that, but in order to do so they have to not recognize my mil service. It's one or the other. So, if almost everyone int he unit gets an award for a period of service, but I don't, because I got an award for what I did with CAP, then people are going to look at that later & think I wasn't doing my job on the mil side. When in actuality I should be getting more promotion points than my peers for my going above & beyond thru my volunteer service in CAP at whatever merit level. Does that make sense?

Awards are about incentivising behavior. That's really what matters.

[RiverAux]

You recall after Katrina when CGAux got a real mil Presidential unit citation but CAP had to make up an internal award cause the govt had no way to recognize us.

Technically, the Presidential Unit Citation was given to the United States Coast Guard as a whole, including Auxiliary members.  Small difference. 

First, we're not currently a rescue agency. We search & find mostly nothing, sometimes bodies, extremely rarely a survivor. Someone else then comes to save them, we're not allowed to. In other words, we're not remotely a lifesaving agency.

You're confusing providing lifesaving medical care with finding someone in a lifethreatening situation and causing them to be removed from it either by ourselves or by others that we direct to the site.  That is lifesaving in my book.  As long as what the AFRCC is calling the results of these situations "Saves", I think that is hard to ignore. 

[JayT]

I was trying to point out how the argument went from "It's cost saving," to "It'll make us look more professional to the regular Air Force," to "It's of benefit to our military members."

Just amusing.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I was trying to point out how the argument went from "It's cost saving," to "It'll make us look more professional to the regular Air Force," to "It's of benefit to our military members."

Just amusing.

I'm not sure where you are finding all these arguments. 

Probably the same place you are finding all of the fat, bearded, donut-eating SM's.

If you would pay attention to the comments instead of continuously engaging in self-loathing of our organization, you would see that several of us have been trying to reach a consensus on what is best for CAP.

[DNall]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never said cost saving, and I always said good for our members & beneficial to mil/CAP members. I've been very consistent on my reasons for supporting this going back several months to previous discussions. Just like anything in CAP, you'll find there are as many opinions as we have members. People support (or not) things for a host of dif reasons, some of which make sense and some of which are nutso. Some times those people change their minds thru the course of a discussion, and sometimes it's just different people saying different things, but being individually consistent.

First, we're not currently a rescue agency. We search & find mostly nothing, sometimes bodies, extremely rarely a survivor. Someone else then comes to save them, we're not allowed to. In other words, we're not remotely a lifesaving agency.

You're confusing providing lifesaving medical care with finding someone in a lifethreatening situation and causing them to be removed from it either by ourselves or by others that we direct to the site.  That is lifesaving in my book.  As long as what the AFRCC is calling the results of these situations "Saves", I think that is hard to ignore.  [/quote]
Now, if that's your job, than you should not be getting an award for doing it, certainly not just because the circumstance favored you walking up on a live one versus some other guy. You only get awarded when you perform so exceptionally well as to stand out far over & above your peers and your actions should serve as an example to everyone else.... ie incentivizing behavior.

Let me say this one more time... I'm NOT ignoring it. Not in the slightest. We got one award right now for lifesaving. It covers such broad territory & is given out for such minor instances, that it trivializes the thing. I DO think you deserve an award for saving lives, and I think it ought ot be one of several awards based on the level of performance. Hence, we follow the AF's (and everyone else's) example here & use the commendation awards for a single action, versus the way they are usually given which is for a period of exemplary service.

[JayT]

I was trying to point out how the argument went from "It's cost saving," to "It'll make us look more professional to the regular Air Force," to "It's of benefit to our military members."

Just amusing.

I'm not sure where you are finding all these arguments. 

Probably the same place you are finding all of the fat, bearded, donut-eating SM's.

If you would pay attention to the comments instead of continuously engaging in self-loathing of our organization, you would see that several of us have been trying to reach a consensus on what is best for CAP.

If you want to accurse me of hating this organization sir, you better come at me with more then a few posts that contradict your views. If you don't like my views that CAP doesn't need to be closer to the Air Force to accomplish our goals, that's fine with me. But don't you dare question my love of this organization based on a few posts.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I never said cost saving, and I always said good for our members & beneficial to mil/CAP members. I've been very consistent on my reasons for supporting this going back several months to previous discussions. Just like anything in CAP, you'll find there are as many opinions as we have members. People support (or not) things for a host of dif reasons, some of which make sense and some of which are nutso. Some times those people change their minds thru the course of a discussion, and sometimes it's just different people saying different things, but being individually consistent.

First, we're not currently a rescue agency. We search & find mostly nothing, sometimes bodies, extremely rarely a survivor. Someone else then comes to save them, we're not allowed to. In other words, we're not remotely a lifesaving agency.

You're confusing providing lifesaving medical care with finding someone in a lifethreatening situation and causing them to be removed from it either by ourselves or by others that we direct to the site.  That is lifesaving in my book.  As long as what the AFRCC is calling the results of these situations "Saves", I think that is hard to ignore. 

Now, if that's your job, than you should not be getting an award for doing it, certainly not just because the circumstance favored you walking up on a live one versus some other guy. You only get awarded when you perform so exceptionally well as to stand out far over & above your peers and your actions should serve as an example to everyone else.... ie incentivizing behavior.

Let me say this one more time... I'm NOT ignoring it. Not in the slightest. We got one award right now for lifesaving. It covers such broad territory & is given out for such minor instances, that it trivializes the thing. I DO think you deserve an award for saving lives, and I think it ought ot be one of several awards based on the level of performance. Hence, we follow the AF's (and everyone else's) example here & use the commendation awards for a single action, versus the way they are usually given which is for a period of exemplary service.
[/quote]

Dennis:

I THINK that I understand your point.

If a person engages in some action which saves a life, rather than give a "Lifesaving" ribbon, award him a Commendation or Achievement medal, recognizing the totality of the superior performance or heroism, as the case may be.

If heroism is involved, and the nature of the heroism is beyond that which is recognized by the Commendation medal, then an Airman's medal is appropriate, with the fact the a life was saved included in the citation.

In the Army, the guidance I was given was that the Soldier's Medal should be given for heroism of a nature that would justify the Silver Star if it were in combat.  I'm pretty sure the same standard applies in the Air Force.

The only service that provides for a "Lifesaving" award is the USCG, and then it has to be from a maritime incident.

[RiverAux]

Now, if that's your job, than you should not be getting an award for doing it, certainly not just because the circumstance favored you walking up on a live one versus some other guy.

By circumstances you mean that the aircrew or ground teams just happen to find people by random luck? 

Yes, trying to find and rescue people is our "job" so to speak and we should be expected to perform it well.  However, actually getting the desired result in saving a life is an exceptional event in any CAP career.  If we were CG rescue swimmers who probably rescue many, many people every year I agree that a Lifesaving Ribbon for them probably wouldn't be appropriate as the activity would be almost routine for them. 

A specific Lifesaving ribbon is much more justified than the other "I just showed up" ribbons currently in CAP's inventory that you also support, so I don't see any consistency in this point of view. 

[DNall]

You got it Kach. 

Now, if that's your job, than you should not be getting an award for doing it, certainly not just because the circumstance favored you walking up on a live one versus some other guy.

By circumstances you mean that the aircrew or ground teams just happen to find people by random luck? 

No, I mean it's luck of the draw that it was your aircrew/GT assigned that sortie versus someone else. Did you demonstrate remarkable skill that stands out above your peers which caused the person to be located when another team probably would not have done so? That deserves an award, being at the right place at the right time doing your job to standard does not. If anything, the mission staff that sent you there deserve the award, not you.

A specific Lifesaving ribbon is much more justified than the other "I just showed up" ribbons currently in CAP's inventory that you also support, so I don't see any consistency in this point of view. 

Well first of all, we're getting rid of most of those "just showed up" ribbons.

Second, do you understand why I'm saying one generic lifesaving ribbon is not adequate? Only the CG has lifesaving medals, and they have a silver, gold, and then the CG medal, plus use the ach/comm/merit svc medals for lesser incidents. The standard for silver is, "such extraordinary effort as to merit recognition." That's not just doing your job. No other service does it that way. They use the system of commendation medals (ach/comm/merit svc; with valor as appropriate), followed by the airman/soldier/cg/etc medal for heroism. You see how that gives you a range over which to recognize dif levels of distinguished action, and thereby makes the meaningful stuff meaningful & the run of the mill stuff run of the mill?

What I have proposed above is CAP ach, CAP comm, CAP merit svc, bronze medal, silver medal, AF airman's medal. Each with valor as appropriate. And, the appropriate level decs can/should go to staff & other members of the team for their contributions.

[Major Carrales]

Oh, you all want CAP to get USAF awards.  How many times must I write that the USAF has other priorities than to handle CAP Awards.

Why is it that CAP would be considered somehow "more viable" if we got USAF ribbons?  Could this be more of that self-loathing mentality that sees us as an "inferior" to all with no consideration to our own intrinsic worth.

"BE MORE PROUD OF WHAT YOU ARE THAN ASHAMED OF WHAT YOU ARE NOT!"

If the USAF wants to grant CAP members USAF awards, so be it.  Let is come from them.  It is what would make that a singular honor.  However, make it (USAF AWARDS) commonplace and it is diminished in its stature and taxes the USAF with issues that it best reserved for Active Duty and Reserse Airmen.  We as CAP cannot and should not propose or demand USAF awards.  That is likely the domain of so called "Bring Crazy" CAP officers.

We have enough awards right now, not too many and not to little.  STATUS QUO is fine.

[DNall]

Joe,
I'm perfectly happy with what I am. This is about improving CAP by making award meaningful & incentivizing the behavior we want/need to achieve that.

CG is pretty busy, but they find the time to recognize CGAux members from time to time for exceptional service. Maybe the reason behind that is it strengthens CGAux & improves/reinforces the relationship, which is all beneficial to the CG.

The very few AF decs we're talking about here are mostly high level stuff that'd be exceptional circumstances, and handled through CAP-USAF that's already dealing only with CAP. The AF awards are on the list, and I think they should be there, but the restructure of the CAP awards is actually what everyone's talked about since I put that list up. I think it makes a lot more sense than what we do now, and really is a low cost change.

You're a PAO, a teacher, and a leader in your area. Do you understand what happens to morale when AF actually reaches out to recognize CAP members with awards? You know that would have a dramatic effect. I think you also understand it has some side benefits like making it advantagous for mil members to also serve with CAP. That's an important resource we've lost out on in recent generations as our military shrunk & national service became passe.

[RiverAux]

No, I mean it's luck of the draw that it was your aircrew/GT assigned that sortie versus someone else. Did you demonstrate remarkable skill that stands out above your peers which caused the person to be located when another team probably would not have done so? That deserves an award, being at the right place at the right time doing your job to standard does not. If anything, the mission staff that sent you there deserve the award, not you.

Yes, there are some cases when anyone with eyeballs might spot somebody, but it is also very common due to the difficulty of the terrain, cover, etc. where it is very likely that quite a few aircrews could fly over the same spot and miss something.  Also, just as possible for ground teams to miss clues that could lead them to the person/site.  Just because you're assigned to the grid where the target is doesn't mean that you're going to find it, you probably won't.  Not because you're incompetent, its because what we ask is actually pretty difficult to do. 

Now, the reason you need a lifesaving ribbon is that most of the time it will be impossible to tell the difference between the totally lucky find that anyone could have seen and one where a high degree of skill or observational concentration was needed.  So, there won't be many opportunities at all to give out commendation or achievement medals.  So, we will end up leaving most of these saves unrecognized by anything significant. 

Or, more likely, we will start automatically giving out one of the new awards to anyone who makes a save. 

Well first of all, we're getting rid of most of those "just showed up" ribbons.

You're actually leaving quite a few in.  I'm talking about the SAR ribbon, CD/HLS ribbon, etc. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Yeah, he did.

I would roll all of those up into a single ribbon based on a large number of sorties regardless of mission.  Like 100 or 150 sorties regardless of whether they are SAR, DR, CD, O-flight, whatever.

[DNall]

No, I mean it's luck of the draw that it was your aircrew/GT assigned that sortie versus someone else. Did you demonstrate remarkable skill that stands out above your peers which caused the person to be located when another team probably would not have done so? That deserves an award, being at the right place at the right time doing your job to standard does not. If anything, the mission staff that sent you there deserve the award, not you.

Yes, there are some cases when anyone with eyeballs might spot somebody, but it is also very common due to the difficulty of the terrain, cover, etc. where it is very likely that quite a few aircrews could fly over the same spot and miss something.  Also, just as possible for ground teams to miss clues that could lead them to the person/site.  Just because you're assigned to the grid where the target is doesn't mean that you're going to find it, you probably won't.  Not because you're incompetent, its because what we ask is actually pretty difficult to do. 

Being qual'd to the mins in the staff guides is the standard. If any team qual'd to that standard should find be successful, then it does not warrant award. What you just mentioned is standing out above that & does deserve recognition. Beyond that, it's recognizing the degree of the accomplishment that's more important.

Now, the reason you need a lifesaving ribbon is that most of the time it will be impossible to tell the difference between the totally lucky find that anyone could have seen and one where a high degree of skill or observational concentration was needed.  So, there won't be many opportunities at all to give out commendation or achievement medals.  So, we will end up leaving most of these saves unrecognized by anything significant. 

Or, more likely, we will start automatically giving out one of the new awards to anyone who makes a save.

Clearly there's a judgment to be made & and an apprvl process. It's not hard to tell distinguished action. It's not as much about how good their observation skills are as if they hiked in two miles over rough terrain or carried on thru snow, etc - it's all degree of difficulty & performance.   

Well first of all, we're getting rid of most of those "just showed up" ribbons.

You're actually leaving quite a few in.  I'm talking about the SAR ribbon, CD/HLS ribbon, etc.  [/quote]

I thought you were talking about activity & silly stuff, I cut a lot of that crap. CN/HLS, SaR, & DR are the equiv of campaign ribbons (ie iraq war, Afghanistan, gulf war, etc). We can't do campaign ribbons for our kinds of operations. We break it down by mission area. I said something about updating the reqs for DR, and I used the old find ribbon for SaR (all blue is pres unit citation & shouldn't be used). I didn't really go any further then that, and am open minded about the reqs.