From this morning's NOTF

[Chappie]

A Civil Air Patrol amnesty?
    CAP Insights and its Web master, Ray Hayden, are making the public demand that the Civil Air Patrol immediately reinstate every single CAP member that has ever been caught up in the "Pineda Posse's" abuse of power.
    Every single member that has been railroaded by the Pineda "2B Abuse Machine" shall not only be immediately reinstated, but that it will be done at no cost to the member involved, and those members shall be granted one hundred percent time in service credit since the date of the abuses against them, the Web site demands.
    Before the CAP's Board of Governors announced that national commander Maj. Gen. Tony Pineda was suspended, Hayden had been tipped off that it was likely going to happen. A few hours later, Hayden received an ironic e-mail from the CAP's national headquarters, offering him a "free" renewal of his membership.
    The Civil Air Patrol's legal officer, Col. George O'Dell, Jr.. had illegally "accepted" an improper "resignation" as determined by the National Executive Committee and Board of Governors (attempting to halt the 2B abuse that they knew had been going on), and improperly "expired" Hayden's membership months before it was due to run out in June of 2007.
    Susie Parker, of the CAP's national headquarters, explained to Hayden via telephone, some time ago, that indeed the membership was improperly "expired" but they had been ordered to "accept Col. Hayden's resignation" by Col. O'Dell. Parker also explained to Hayden that, because Pineda was in charge, she was powerless to do anything about it.
    "This clear command abuse of power is the catalyst behind the public demand to reinstate all CAP members caught up in Pineda's lust for power, and to make it as right as possible -- as soon as possible," Hayden told NOTF today.
    "What everyone fails to realize is that while "Testingate" is what took Pineda down, there had still been a host of official IG complaints against him that have yet to be completed. Also, that there are dozens of corrupt members in the National Board and positioned throughout the CAP management structure, placed there by Pineda and his "Posse" members," Hayden said.

* * * *

While I would support the amnesty being applied to all those members who were 2'b in an abuse of power, it would sicken me to see the membership of someone who has admitted his or her part in a willful act of deception and dishonesty...no matter as to the claim of being intimidated by a commander at any level...be reinstated.  A willful act of deception or dishonesty is clearly a violation of the Core Values. 

Saying that one was fearful of losing rank or acting upon a promise of promotion of rank in CAP strikes me as humorous.  I know that the rank on my shoulder boards and a $1.50 will get me a cup of coffee at the local AM/PM market.  There is not a loss in pay or pension threatened or even loss of livlihood regarding involvement in this volunteer organization.   The only loss is the area of personal and organization integrity.

If such an amnesty would be granted to someone who was involved in self-admitted act of deception and dishonesty, I would have a great admiration for that person if they decline the offer.

[Pylon]

   Here we go.


I'll avoid commenting on the grammar and structure of the article.

What I will say is that I would support some sort of governing body (don't know who would be most appropriate) reviewing the reinstatement of people who actively appeal to it. 

People who have been terminated may have been railroaded or they may have actually deserved the termination.  To simply grant blanket amnesty to a group of terminated members would not benefit the Civil Air Patrol.  Frankly, after such an experience as a 2B process usually is, I'd be surprised to see 50% of them want to come back to CAP in the first place.

However, I admit there may have been a number of wrongful terminations of membership and somebody ought to be able to review them, if so asked.  But let's not go out and hand everybody recently terminated a membership card and welcome them back to the fold.  Wait for those members to ask for an "appeal", review the request with scrutiny, and make a determination from there.

A side note, when did Hayden get promoted to Colonel?   

[LtCol White]

  Here we go.


I'll avoid commenting on the grammar and structure of the article.

What I will say is that I would support some sort of governing body (don't know who would be most appropriate) reviewing the reinstatement of people who actively appeal to it. 

People who have been terminated may have been railroaded or they may have actually deserved the termination.  To simply grant blanket amnesty to a group of terminated members would not benefit the Civil Air Patrol.  Frankly, after such an experience as a 2B process usually is, I'd be surprised to see 50% of them want to come back to CAP in the first place.

However, I admit there may have been a number of wrongful terminations of membership and somebody ought to be able to review them, if so asked.  But let's not go out and hand everybody recently terminated a membership card and welcome them back to the fold.  Wait for those members to ask for an "appeal", review the request with scrutiny, and make a determination from there.

A side note, when did Hayden get promoted to Colonel?   

I agree. Such a program should be done upon request of the individual involved.

[dwb]

Blah blah blah... isn't there anything else to talk about?

[Skyray]

Blah blah blah... isn't there anything else to talk about?

May not be that important to you Justin, but it is pretty important to those of us who were "non-renewed" sometimes months early, on Pineda's whim.

The fallacy in an "amnesty" is that it postulates that Tony is gone.  Those of us in Florida don't call him "Teflon Tony" for nothing.  He has survived worse crises than "Testing Gate" some of which involve cover up of cadet abuse, both sexual and physical.  Not attempting to bring up these old dead horses, except as an admonition that you not count out the supreme one just yet.  I got an email last week from an extremely astute analyst speculating that the "Suspension" was a ploy by the Chairman of the Board of Governors to buy time until the heat cooled of in the kitchen.  Then the suspension expires, and we are back to business as normal.  I hope he is wrong, but I am not assembling my TPU just yet.

[JCJ]

  Here we go.


I'll avoid commenting on the grammar and structure of the article.

What I will say is that I would support some sort of governing body (don't know who would be most appropriate) reviewing the reinstatement of people who actively appeal to it. 

People who have been terminated may have been railroaded or they may have actually deserved the termination.  To simply grant blanket amnesty to a group of terminated members would not benefit the Civil Air Patrol.  Frankly, after such an experience as a 2B process usually is, I'd be surprised to see 50% of them want to come back to CAP in the first place.

However, I admit there may have been a number of wrongful terminations of membership and somebody ought to be able to review them, if so asked.  But let's not go out and hand everybody recently terminated a membership card and welcome them back to the fold.  Wait for those members to ask for an "appeal", review the request with scrutiny, and make a determination from there.

A side note, when did Hayden get promoted to Colonel?   

I agree. Such a program should be done upon request of the individual involved.

MARB

[NEBoom]

OK, since there is now another one of these threads, I'll go ahead and put my $.02 in.  I've wanted to get this off my chest all week, so here goes.

Folks inside the high-level CAP political food chain need to realize just what kind of impression they're leaving on all the rest of us (I know they're all so obsessed with all this that they don't care, or think we're all ignorant, or whatever, but humor me).  Time goes on and one outrageous thing follows another.  And absolutely NONE of it helps CAP at all.  Frankly it's getting old.  We waste so much of our precious time and energy on this kind of stuff while many big issues CAP faces continue to be neglected or mishandled.

You look at some of the things that have been done here in the last few years, and read some of Mr. Hayden's blog, and you just come away shaking your head.  It's bizarre.  Frankly I've always been very leery of people who get that worked up over CAP.  And Hayden's not the only one by any means.  You'll find the type all over the place.  If life in CAP ever got that intense and difficult for me, I'd hang it up.  Seriously.  This is important work we're doing here, but at the end of the day it's still a job we're not getting paid for.  There comes a time when it just isn't worth it anymore.   I understand about standing up for what's right in the organization, but I really think most of the people involved in all this don't really have what's best for CAP at heart.  I know that probably doesn't mean much coming from somebody who doesn't have a dog in the fight, but I'm out here trying to get CAP to reach it's true potential (which I admit is a bit like tilting at windmills) and am getting very tired of the leadership at the top being constantly embroiled in all this silliness.

My apologies to the moderators (who have notified all of us that they really don't want posts like this here) for taking up even more space on their forums about this crap.  I won't engage in further discussion on the matter.  Thanks for letting me vent.

[ADCAPer]

I'll avoid commenting on the grammar and structure of the article.

Seriously, you think the grammar and structure is bad in this article? It's worlds ahead of what CAP puts on the national site from time to time. For example:



11 cadets learn to soar over N. Georgia
Ga. Wing conducts glider encampment
July 31, 2007

Lt. Col. Brenda Allison
Director of Cadet Programs
Georgia Wing

GEORGIA -- Eleven cadets from three U.S. Civil Air Patrol wings sharpened their flying skills under the watchful eyes of staff from four wings during the 2007 Georgia Wing Glider Encampment at Richard B. Russell Regional Airport in Rome.

The week of flight training ended with graduation at the Berry College Krannert Center ballroom, with retired Air Force Maj. Gen. George Harrison -- a Georgia Wing lieutenant colonel who served as operations director of the encampment -- conducting the ceremonies. 

In attendance for the graduation were the Georgia Wing's commander, Col. Lyle Letteer, and Georgia State Rep. and Barry Loudermilk, a CAP lieutenant colonel and commander of the wing's Legislative Squadron.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm thinking that the individual who wrote this article couldn't even pass the Cadet Speech and Essay Requirement.

The rest of the article can be found here: http://www.cap.gov/visitors/news/cap_news_online/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&nodeID=6192&newsID=3346&year=2007&month=7   

[Skyray]

but I'm out here trying to get CAP to reach it's true potential (which I admit is a bit like tilting at windmills) and am getting very tired of the leadership at the top being constantly embroiled in all this silliness.

The fact that I never heard your name before leads me to believe that you are one of the worker bees that toils down where the rubber meets the road.  The silliness at the top is almost all wannabee action.  Sycophants if you will.  Most of them don't have any qualification other than their ability to suck up.  Real leaders like Rich Anderson, General Bergman, Major General Wheless, and apparently BGen Courter don't play those games.  They are the future hope of CAP if they can just get by the whisper campaigns of the sychophants.  I suspect Rex Glasgow deserves to be in there too.

[ColonelJack]

I got an email last week from an extremely astute analyst speculating that the "Suspension" was a ploy by the Chairman of the Board of Governors to buy time until the heat cooled of in the kitchen.  Then the suspension expires, and we are back to business as normal. 

If indeed this is the case, I don't see how it aids General Pineda.  His term is over in August of 2008.  There won't be any extensions -- it's been voted down three times already.  And General Courter was unanimously reaffirmed as CV ... so she's next in line, unless something really ugly were to rear its head over the next year.  I know her advancement to CC is not automatic nor a given, but it bloody well should be.

Still, the alleged offer to resign by Gen. Pineda (albeit with his stars intact) perhaps should have been taken.  (Side note -- was the offer to resign as CC or to resign from CAP?  Or did the offer even exist?)

I know, enough is enough.  But those of us on the fringes of the organization -- but who still hold it dear to their hearts -- don't want to see it dragged through any more mud than it already has been.

On the topic of reinstatements, I would agree with appeals from those who were wrongly terminated.  But only if the former member initiates the appeal.  If reinstatement is granted, I do agree with the conditions of "no break in service" and immediate grade reinstatement.

My two cents ... your mileage, of course, may vary.

Jack

[Cecil DP]

What I will say is that I would support some sort of governing body (don't know who would be most appropriate) reviewing the reinstatement of people who actively appeal to it. 

There is a Membership Actions Review Board (MARB) which is the same one which is used to determine whether members should be terminated for cause. I agree that Ray Hayden shouldn't be renewed, but if Tony Pineda didn't go through the proper channels than the membership termination was illegal.

Mike M. 

[ELTHunter]

I got an email last week from an extremely astute analyst speculating that the "Suspension" was a ploy by the Chairman of the Board of Governors to buy time until the heat cooled of in the kitchen.  Then the suspension expires, and we are back to business as normal.  I hope he is wrong, but I am not assembling my TPU just yet.

If that is somebody's evil plan, it would seem to be I'll conceived.  The suspension has elevated the whole investigation to a new level.  If they try to sweep it back under the rug now, I'd think someone would call them on it.

[ELTHunter]

MARB

Except the MARB is for "members".  I seem to remember, and maybe Doug can help me out here, that some of the victims have been told they no longer had any recourse under the MARB because they were no longer members.

If all these charges are true and TP gets the boot, I'd think some special board or something would be in order for anyone that appeals an adverse action under TP's reign.

[SJFedor]

If Hayden thinks he got thrown out simply because TP didn't like him, and he was forced out of the organization due to a political agenda, and can prove it, then yes, reinstate him.

And then, as soon as you hand him his shiny new membership card, take it away, inform him he is suspended, and give him his copy of a new 2B for conduct unbecoming a member of CAP, making a false statement to or concerning CAP, insubordination,  failure to obey rules, regulations, and orders of higher authority, serious or willful violation of CAP regulations or directives.

[ddelaney103]

What I will say is that I would support some sort of governing body (don't know who would be most appropriate) reviewing the reinstatement of people who actively appeal to it. 

There is a Membership Actions Review Board (MARB) which is the same one which is used to determine whether members should be terminated for cause. I agree that Ray Hayden shouldn't be renewed, but if Tony Pineda didn't go through the proper channels than the membership termination was illegal.

Mike M. 

The difficult problem will be procedure.  If you elected to take a dive and resign instead of going the 2B process, there's no recourse.  Many times the MARB comes back "not within our purview."

[mikeylikey]

Ok let MR. Hayden back in.  How long will it be before we have another scandal directly related to him.  Once again NOTF crapped out another awesome piece of trash. 

[SJFedor]

[Skyray]

The difficult problem will be procedure.  If you elected to take a dive and resign instead of going the 2B process, there's no recourse.  Many times the MARB comes back "not within our purview."

What if you gave Tony a written resignation "to show you were serious" with the understanding that he would not turn it in, but simply show it to the Air Force, and the the double dealer in him turned it in?  I suggest you read the saga of Rex Glasgow.

In my case, the events happened long before there was a MARB.  When they established the MARB, I applied, and was told by the National Legal Officer that the MARB was "for members only."

[Ricochet13]

The difficult problem will be procedure.  If you elected to take a dive and resign instead of going the 2B process, there's no recourse.  Many times the MARB comes back "not within our purview."

What if you gave Tony a written resignation "to show you were serious" with the understanding that he would not turn it in, but simply show it to the Air Force, and the the double dealer in him turned it in?  I suggest you read the saga of Rex Glasgow.

In my case, the events happened long before there was a MARB.  When they established the MARB, I applied, and was told by the National Legal Officer that the MARB was "for members only."

So join up again.  If you resigned, reapply.  Not sure what the problem is? 

[ddelaney103]

The difficult problem will be procedure.  If you elected to take a dive and resign instead of going the 2B process, there's no recourse.  Many times the MARB comes back "not within our purview."

What if you gave Tony a written resignation "to show you were serious" with the understanding that he would not turn it in, but simply show it to the Air Force, and the the double dealer in him turned it in?  I suggest you read the saga of Rex Glasgow.

In my case, the events happened long before there was a MARB.  When they established the MARB, I applied, and was told by the National Legal Officer that the MARB was "for members only."

Well Rex Glasgow is an idiot, then.  You sign a contract and you're stuck with it: in this case, the contract said "I quit."

"One must be careful what one writes... and to whom one gives it.  I must keep this thought in mind." - Cardinal Richelieu, The Three Musketeers