Wear of Uniforms Optional?

[Tubacap]

Maybe it's my naivity, but I don't think there is a power struggle on the uniform front in the realm of USAF style, quite frankly, what they say goes, so why not just let them say it.  On the flip side, we have a whole set of coporates to deal with.

Now... if someone would just come up with a uniform that used shorts, I'd be set this summer

[flyerthom]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

Ok, I work 0700 to 1930 in an Emergency department Gray slacks and black shoes are not accecptable per work rules (work pays the bills) The meeting starts at 1900 and is twenty minutes accross town so I'm already going to be late. Do you want me in a work uniform or shall I just quit CAP and go volunteer somewhere where my skills and desire are actually valued. After all there is such an overabundance of pilots, and skilled dedicated volunteers out there.

And then we wonder why quality, professional people are voting with their feet...

[jimmydeanno]

I think this line answers some questions:

"Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform." - It doesn't say the squadron will equip members with the basic uniform.  So it is definitely required that each member aquires "the basic uniform" on their own.

then it say's:

"However, all commanders must be mindful of the objective of attaining a neatly uniformed appearance at a minimum of personal expense to the individual member and will consequently refrain from imposing unreasonable uniform requirements." (page 7 note 2) - What is considered an "unreasonable uniform requirement" or what is a "minimum or personal expense?"

[Dragoon]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

Ok, I work 0700 to 1930 in an Emergency department Gray slacks and black shoes are not accecptable per work rules (work pays the bills) The meeting starts at 1900 and is twenty minutes accross town so I'm already going to be late. Do you want me in a work uniform or shall I just quit CAP and go volunteer somewhere where my skills and desire are actually valued. After all there is such an overabundance of pilots, and skilled dedicated volunteers out there.

And then we wonder why quality, professional people are voting with their feet...

Dude, put the uniform in the car, let the commander that you're showing up late and need 5 extra minutes in the bathroom to change. Why is this such a big deal?  We've got a least 5 seniors doing this every week.

[Chaplaindon]

In light of what I have seen in my 2-decades+ in CAP (and what I expect to see in the future), I have trouble with the semantics of this (and similar) threads concerning official "clothing."

CAP is NOT uniform, especially (but certainly NOT uniquely) in its prescribed spectrum of clothing.

It hasn't been for --at least-- as long as I have been a member. Although I'd like to see it one day, I don't expect it ... frankly ... ever.

Uniformity in appearance would, IMHO, promote uniformity operationally and therein --almost certainly-- enhance professionalism (maybe even save a few more lives?). But, it won't happen.

Instead, we have dizzying (and costly $$$) combinations of "combinations" which range from the military, to the board room, to the golf course and everything in between.  It's spectrum is nearly "daylight to D.C."

Doubtless, more --not fewer-- "combinations" lurk in CAP's future.

As a result, any discussion of uniforms is disingenuous and misleading.

CAP has "MULTI-forms" or "POLY-forms".

Let's use the language as intended.

[Dragoon]

So very true.  Dressing alike seems to be the cardinal sin 'round these parts.  Many see no real value to uniformity.

[Pumbaa]

So is uniform Optional like the clothing optional bar at key west?

THat could become really ugly!

I know, I know.. Cadet Protection..

[IceNine]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

OK, I work 0700 to 1930 in an Emergency department Gray slacks and black shoes are not acceptable per work rules (work pays the bills) The meeting starts at 1900 and is twenty minutes across town so I'm already going to be late. Do you want me in a work uniform or shall I just quit CAP and go volunteer somewhere where my skills and desire are actually valued. After all there is such an overabundance of pilots, and skilled dedicated volunteers out there.

And then we wonder why quality, professional people are voting with their feet...

NICE TRY!!!  Once again go ahead with the excuses.  PUT THEM IN YOUR CAR!!!!  CHANGE WHEN YOU GET THERE!!!  Not sure what is hard about that.  OK so you don't drive to work you ride the subway.  Take a backpack and throw a set of boots and a utility uniform (jumpsuit) in it.

Quality people are voting with their feet not because they are being asked to follow standards, but because they are not feeling welcome or useful.  There is no misconception by anyone walking in the door that we have a uniform.  If you are a VOLUNTEER Firefighter you are not forgiven if you don't wear turnout gear.  If you are a volunteer EMT the cop is not going to Forgive you if you are speeding and you don't turn on your light.  Equally so you are not Forgiven if you don't wear a uniform to VOLUNTEER at CAP.  Its standard practice.

Duc, Sequere vel Abi Lead, Follow, Or get out of the way.  OR   Be the standard for uniform wear, follow the standard for uniform wear, or be left behind when you are not allowed to participate

[flyerthom]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

OK, I work 0700 to 1930 in an Emergency department Gray slacks and black shoes are not acceptable per work rules (work pays the bills) The meeting starts at 1900 and is twenty minutes across town so I'm already going to be late. Do you want me in a work uniform or shall I just quit CAP and go volunteer somewhere where my skills and desire are actually valued. After all there is such an overabundance of pilots, and skilled dedicated volunteers out there.

And then we wonder why quality, professional people are voting with their feet...

NICE TRY!!!  Once again go ahead with the excuses.  PUT THEM IN YOUR CAR!!!!  CHANGE WHEN YOU GET THERE!!!  Not sure what is hard about that.  OK so you don't drive to work you ride the subway.  Take a backpack and throw a set of boots and a utility uniform (jumpsuit) in it.

Quality people are voting with their feet not because they are being asked to follow standards, but because they are not feeling welcome or useful.  There is no misconception by anyone walking in the door that we have a uniform.  If you are a VOLUNTEER Firefighter you are not forgiven if you don't wear turnout gear.  If you are a volunteer EMT the cop is not going to Forgive you if you are speeding and you don't turn on your light.  Equally so you are not Forgiven if you don't wear a uniform to VOLUNTEER at CAP.  Its standard practice.

Duc, Sequere vel Abi Lead, Follow, Or get out of the way.  OR   Be the standard for uniform wear, follow the standard for uniform wear, or be left behind when you are not allowed to participate

No, people are leaving because other people need the fulfill their need to control people through petty things, like tossing them out of meetings because they had the audacity to show up real instead of pretty. After 12 hours in a busy ER/trauma center, doing prolonged CPR, dealing with tragedy then rushing to get to a meeting  late then having some petty tyrant giving me grief I'd just say see ya, and walk. Fortunately I have a commander who values what I can do and give, not what's on my back. When I'm off I go in uniform, when I work he's glad I made the effort to be there. If you're in CAP just so you can "order" people around you need a serious mirror check.  And as for leading, I am. I'm showing that the misson comes first, the show and strut comes second.

[shorning]

If you're in CAP just so you can "order" people around you need a serious mirror check.

[Eclipse]

No, people are leaving because other people need the fulfill their need to control people through petty things, like tossing them out of meetings because they had the audacity to show up real instead of pretty. After 12 hours in a busy ER/trauma center, doing prolonged CPR, dealing with tragedy then rushing to get to a meeting  late then having some petty tyrant giving me grief I'd just say see ya, and walk. Fortunately I have a commander who values what I can do and give, not what's on my back. When I'm off I go in uniform, when I work he's glad I made the effort to be there. If you're in CAP just so you can "order" people around you need a serious mirror check.  And as for leading, I am. I'm showing that the misson comes first, the show and strut comes second.

What you are showing is a flagrant disregard for an an organization you VOLUNTARILY agreed to participate in.

Your day job has absolutely no relevance to this issue.  Stop trying to play the martyr card about how dramatic your profession is.

Whether you spent the day arm deep in someone's chest, hip deep in a sewer, or knee deep in TPS reports is irrelevant.   

The average 8-year old little leaguer is sent home if they show up out of uniform, yet we can't seem to get some adults to be bothered to put on a golf shirt.

[MajorChuck]

Personally with the abundant supply of uniform combinations there is no reason to choose the "optional" wear rule.

So you think you're going to be late leaving work and can't get home before the meeting.  Wear grey pants and black shoes to work and throw a polo in the car.  I haven't counted recently but there must be over 20 different options ranging from aviator shirts to mess dress. 

So, I guess in short if someone is going to come to me with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform I need to come up with excuses as to why they don't have a uniform on, I need to come up with excuses as to why I can't let them stay.

Ok, I work 0700 to 1930 in an Emergency department Gray slacks and black shoes are not accecptable per work rules (work pays the bills) The meeting starts at 1900 and is twenty minutes accross town so I'm already going to be late. Do you want me in a work uniform or shall I just quit CAP and go volunteer somewhere where my skills and desire are actually valued. After all there is such an overabundance of pilots, and skilled dedicated volunteers out there.

And then we wonder why quality, professional people are voting with their feet...

I work 0600-1800 on My job. My Unit Meeting starts at 1900,I work 40 minutes from the Unit. My Members know I'm going to be late.(thats what Unit Vice Commanders are for )
when I arrive,its freshly showered and in uniform,usually golf shirt/grey pants.If I didnt, Id arrive in Smelly Civies and that does'nt set a good example to My members or any visitors who may be interested in Joining.

IMHO if wearing a basic CAP uniform is cause for any member thinking of resigning. then they need to  redetermin if CAP is the right way to invest their time and skills.

[MajorChuck]

After posting, I went thru the 39-1. the Mandatory wearing of a uniform to normal activity's isn't  clear.. so I went to CAP knowledge base .......






Requirements for senior members to wear a uniform

  Question
  Do I have to wear a CAP uniform to be a senior member?

  Answer
  Members are required to wear a uniform when participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used CAP flight activity), but not necessarily the AF style service uniform. Members equip themselves with the basic uniform, either the Minimum Basic Service Uniform or the CAP Distinctive Basic Uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. See Paragraph 1-5, and Tables 1-1 and 1-2 of CAPM 39-1 CIVIL AIR PATROL UNIFORM MANUAL . Note: For the latest edition of CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual see Answer 1133: CAPM 39-1 CAP Uniform Manual

1-5. Uniform Combinations. Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. Uniform clothing may be altered to improve fit. However, alterations must not change the intended appearance of garment as designed. It is the member's personal responsibility to equip himself/herself with a proper uniform.
Commanders may assist if they have the capability, through use of unit funds and/or donations or by acquiring surplus uniforms. Cadets are required to have the minimum basic uniform. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet. The omission of a specific item or appearance standard does not automatically permit its wear.

Table 1-1. Wearing the Uniform
When participating in or conducting the cadet program or when flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used CAP flight activity).

Table 1-2. Uniforms
Uniform Combinations
Various combinations of CAP uniforms are authorized in order to allow for various climatic conditions, availability of uniforms, etc., but no member is obligated to equip himself/herself with all or even a major part of the combinations described in this publication. Members will equip themselves with the basic uniform. The minimum basic uniforms for male and female cadets and senior members, which will satisfy most occasions, are listed below. Members may obtain and wear the additional uniform items authorized in this publication on an optional basis. See note 1.


So, as a Unit Commander, I will highly encourage My Officers to wear a Uniform,but I will not bar them from attending if they Don't. Except for whats prescribed above.

[RiverAux]

looks like the knowledgebase doesn't quite match up with 39-1.

[IceNine]

I'm Shocked...knowledgebase doesn't jive?