Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 14, 2017, 01:14:28 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Uncooperative Hangar Owner
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print
Author Topic: Uncooperative Hangar Owner  (Read 2883 times)
arBar
Member

Posts: 81
Unit: SER-TN-014

Millington Composite Squadron
« on: July 25, 2017, 03:02:17 AM »

So you're on an AFAM looking for an ELT.  You isolate it to a hangar but the owner won't cooperate with you.  How many have encountered this and how did you handle it?
Logged
PA Guy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 709

« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2017, 03:46:06 AM »

Yes several times. Have the IC report it to AFRCC. Depending on your state you notify the sheriff then go home and go back to bed.
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,683
Unit: of issue

« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2017, 07:20:36 AM »

Yes several times. Have the IC report it to AFRCC. Depending on your state you notify the sheriff then go home and go back to bed.

^^ this. 

I've only encountered an uncooperative hangar owner once. ELT search and the guy refused to allow us into his hangar, claiming there was "no way" that the ELT signal was emanating from his hangar or anything inside.  (I suspect he thought the earth was flat too...)  Absolutely impossible that any ELT in his hangar could be activated.

"oookay" was my response, and I found a landline and called the MC (thats how long ago it was. LOL), reported that we were denied access to the hangar but that all indications were that the signal was coming from there. Because we could see the tail numbers of the planes thru the window, we dutifully recorded the tail numbers, passed them along to the MC and were told "OK, you're done. RTB."

It my understanding that AFRCC made a few phone calls to the local law enforcement and they took over. The ELT stopped transmitting within a few hours. At that point, its not my circus nor my monkeys.
Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,795
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2017, 12:25:54 PM »

Had a similar problem on a boat that was on the approach pattern for a major airport. FCC came in, verified the location, sent a bill/fine for $5000
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 476

« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 12:09:30 PM »

So you're on an AFAM looking for an ELT.  You isolate it to a hangar but the owner won't cooperate with you.  How many have encountered this and how did you handle it?
I haven't experienced this problem personally, however in the Washington State emergency services training for air crew several examples of clueless or uncooperative hangar owners, property owners, etc. were discussed.  Bumping the 'problem' upstairs to MC (which in our case is the Washington State EOC and EMS aviation person) effectively deals with the problem.  I understand that knowingly (defined as you do known, or should know) allowing or facilitating false transmission of an ELT signal has a very hefty fine attached.  If my notes from a few years ago are correct, the full penalty is upwards from $35K.  According to the Washington EOC aviation SAR person, it's been levied a few times.  I think that aids with establishing the proper mindset to accept a "teachable" moment.  :)
Logged
cnitas
Seasoned Member

Posts: 411

« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 01:47:02 PM »

I had one once where the A/C owner would not let us in to confirm that it was his aircraft.  All signs said yes, but he vigorously denied all possibility it was his.  He offered to retrieve the ELT to prove it was not transmitting.  He went into the hanger, the signal went silent, and he emerged a short time later with his proof - the disconnected ELT less the battery.  Hmm....must not have been his afterall.   ::) 

Still gets me to this day how serious this guy was.  I kept thinking he was going to laugh, slap me on the shoulder and say thanks for looking out for him.  But no, he walked away seemingly angry we would dare accuse him of ELT mischief.  Maybe he was a habitual offender and had caught a fine in the past.  I will likely never know.
Logged
Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Commander
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003
dbaran
Member

Posts: 82
Unit: PCR-CA-110

« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2017, 02:33:57 PM »

I have had a similar situation before.  If you're in the field...let the IC know and they'll deal with it.  The IC calls AFRCC, and AFRCC takes care of it.   On my clearly non-emergency mission, they called the FCC who sent a monitoring van the next day and wrote a very expensive citation to the property owner for transmitting a fake distress signal.
Logged
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 865

« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2017, 07:38:11 PM »

Not having had to chase down an ELT  in a hangar before, I'll ask. If you find the hangar and its at night and no one is there, how do you figure out who the owner is? Have to find a after hours contact number for an airport manager first and hope he answers?
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,144

« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2017, 07:48:21 PM »

^Yes, or the local LE or FD might have a number. There are many times where the search is suspended for the night and the next morning more phone calls are made and/or a team goes back out to the airport.

Mike
Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2017, 07:18:57 AM »

Not having had to chase down an ELT  in a hangar before, I'll ask. If you find the hangar and its at night and no one is there, how do you figure out who the owner is? Have to find a after hours contact number for an airport manager first and hope he answers?

A better question is if you find the hangar and its at night and no one is there, why doesn't someone on the team or the IC have a contact number for the hangar owner? Seems like there should be some kind of interface between CAP and the local aviation community. Since you're more than likely operating in your local area, you should know who the local players are. We used to keep a master list of airport managers, hangar owners and marina owners/managers that we'd put to use frequently to get ELTs and EPIRBs silenced. It'd be updated regularly and the ICs had a copy. Do some outreach, stop maintaining cylinders of mediocrity, and work WITH the greater CA community.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 865

« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2017, 05:28:35 PM »

Not having had to chase down an ELT  in a hangar before, I'll ask. If you find the hangar and its at night and no one is there, how do you figure out who the owner is? Have to find a after hours contact number for an airport manager first and hope he answers?

A better question is if you find the hangar and its at night and no one is there, why doesn't someone on the team or the IC have a contact number for the hangar owner? Seems like there should be some kind of interface between CAP and the local aviation community. Since you're more than likely operating in your local area, you should know who the local players are. We used to keep a master list of airport managers, hangar owners and marina owners/managers that we'd put to use frequently to get ELTs and EPIRBs silenced. It'd be updated regularly and the ICs had a copy. Do some outreach, stop maintaining cylinders of mediocrity, and work WITH the greater CA community.

Good points. I asked the question off the cuff a couple nights ago. I'll ask at our next meeting if this kind of list is being kept. Could be and I just didn't know it, not having need to use it yet. I have the local airport manager's cell on my phone, but hangars are different.

Walking by storefronts in the downtown area, its very common to see "In case of emergency call 555-5555" somewhere on the front door for police or others to call at 3am in an emergency.  I never see that kind of info on hangar doors. Might be a good idea for airport managers to require it.
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,072

« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2017, 06:30:28 PM »

This doesn't just apply to hangars - my wing has detected ELTs in private homes, car trunks, boats,
piles of garbage, and the busiest airport on earth, all private property or high-security / controlled access.

If the owner says "no", you note the address and leave.  The IC notifies the FAA, and decides whether
the team gets a find or not.  It's not unheard of to visit the same place multiple nights to the same result.

Sometimes local PD can be the voice of reason, but not always, and absent probable cause they can't enter either.
Logged

"The man who does more than he is paid for will soon be paid for more than he does." - Napoleon Hill.
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

waukwiz
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2017, 01:49:00 AM »

I'd hope most judges would qualify an L-Per reading as probable cause
Logged
Cadet Cullen Mayes
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright © 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,122

« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2017, 12:06:02 PM »

I'd hope most judges would qualify an L-Per reading as probable cause

The real question is: "Probable Cause for what?"

Ned Lee
Judge Guy
Logged
Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,092
Unit: SI

« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2017, 12:33:27 PM »

I'd hope most judges would qualify an L-Per reading as probable cause

The real question is: "Probable Cause for what?"

Ned Lee
Judge Guy
:clap:

Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,683
Unit: of issue

« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2017, 12:37:53 PM »

This doesn't just apply to hangars - my wing has detected ELTs in private homes, car trunks, boats,
piles of garbage, and the busiest airport on earth, all private property or high-security / controlled access.

Roller skating rink. I kid you not.

The owner was an aircraft owner and swore up and down his ELT wasn't activated, even though he had just changed the battery and tested it "like you're supposed to at the top of the hour.."

Yeah, when you test your ELT, you're supposed to put the switch back into the "OFF" or "ARM" position. Leaving it "ON" is not preferred.
Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,326
Unit: Classified

« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2017, 04:20:53 PM »

Reading this has made me laugh and roll my eyes.   We need to remember that even though you may be searching for something within the scope of a mission, there are still legalities that have to be abided by. 
Logged
waukwiz
Member

Posts: 66
Unit: GLR-WI-048

« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2017, 11:36:25 PM »

I'd hope most judges would qualify an L-Per reading as probable cause

The real question is: "Probable Cause for what?"

Ned Lee
Judge Guy
knowingly (defined as you do known, or should know) allowing or facilitating false transmission of an ELT signal


Logged
Cadet Cullen Mayes
Waukesha Composite Squadron
"Ok, how about instead of doing that, let's not do that. Ok?"
The senseless drivel in this post is Copyright © 2017 by waukwiz. All parking spots are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post anywhere except CAP-Talk only.
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,326
Unit: Classified

« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2017, 11:40:16 PM »

I'd hope most judges would qualify an L-Per reading as probable cause

The real question is: "Probable Cause for what?"

Ned Lee
Judge Guy
knowingly (defined as you do known, or should know) allowing or facilitating false transmission of an ELT signal

Yeah don't see a judge biting on that.  They have more important things to deal with. 
Logged
HandsomeWalt_USMC
Recruit

Posts: 43
Unit: NER-MA-019

« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2017, 11:56:10 PM »

My concern here, from my LEO perspective, would be if a CAP Ground Team's isolation of said ELT to the hangar in question constitutes prima facie evidence that the hangar owner should now know that an ELT is transmitting from within said hangar? Following that, does that evidence rise to the level of PC? Most cops don't know jack about CAP or their training and capabilities. Nor do most judges, I'd venture to guess. I wouldn't sign an affidavit for a search warrant based on a CAP GT's find, honestly, and I'm an active member of the program. What I would do, if approached in my LE capacity by a CAP GT, is talk to the owner and make them aware of the federal laws/regulations involving false distress signals and try to convince them to save themselves the headache of dealing with the FCC and the fines. Were I Joe Citizen, I would be more likely to open my doors to a uniformed, identified Law Enforcement Officer than I would be to a member of an organization I may only be peripherally aware of.

I'm also curious as to whether these rules regarding false ELT signals fall under the realm of FCC Regulations (federal civil law), US Code (federal criminal law), or a state statute or regulation. That will effect who has jurisdiction both on a law enforcement agency level and which court you would apply to for a warrant as well as if a warrant is actually called for. If it is a regulation, than the FCC issuing a civil fine requires much less a burden of proof than obtaining a search or arrest warrant for a criminal act.  Please enlighten me, because I really don't know.
Logged
Semper Fidelis
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 476

« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2017, 11:59:46 PM »


Yeah don't see a judge biting on that.  They have more important things to deal with.

   "Inadvertent and non-emergency-related activations violate FCC Rules and
   may subject the operator to monetary penalties up to $112,500."

See:   https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Public_Notices/DA-13-239A1.html  I speculate Judge Guy is not a Federal Magistrate, so is unfamiliar with some aspects of Federalism.    ;)

and if the transmission is deliberate, i.e. A "hoax"

"Under federal law, 14USC88, knowingly and willfully transmitting a hoax distress call is a felony. It is punishable by up to six years in prison, a $250,000 fine, and restitution to the rescue agency for all costs incurred responding to the distress."

See:  http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/new.html
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 12:24:51 AM by Live2Learn » Logged
spaatzmom
Seasoned Member

Posts: 288

« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2017, 12:40:15 AM »


Yeah don't see a judge biting on that.  They have more important things to deal with.

   "Inadvertent and non-emergency-related activations violate FCC Rules and
   may subject the operator to monetary penalties up to $112,500."

See:   https://transition.fcc.gov/eb/Public_Notices/DA-13-239A1.html  I speculate Judge Guy is not a Federal Magistrate, so is unfamiliar with some aspects of Federalism.    ;)

and if the transmission is deliberate, i.e. A "hoax"

"Under federal law, 14USC88, knowingly and willfully transmitting a hoax distress call is a felony. It is punishable by up to six years in prison, a $250,000 fine, and restitution to the rescue agency for all costs incurred responding to the distress."

See:  http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/new.html


Ummmm ya.  "Judge guy" actually IS a judge, so speculate away
Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,080
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2017, 01:37:48 AM »

Ummmm ya.  "Judge guy" actually IS a judge, so speculate away

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,326
Unit: Classified

« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2017, 01:47:48 AM »

Yeah umm still not gonna fly.  Volunteer group with a hit not enough for pc for any warrant for entry... 

The org cannot violate or tresspass to deactivate anything especially if the owner has denied it.
Logged
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,122

« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2017, 12:26:16 PM »

My question was designed to discover if it is a violation of a state or Federal criminal statute to have an ELT going off in your hangar.  Which is something I should think a senior performing DF missions should be able to articulate to local authorities.

And the consensus here appears to be that it could conceivably violate a criminal law if it was deliberate and malicious. But an unnoticed accidental activation does not appear to be a crime, but rather a violation of Federal air safety regulations.

Normally judges do not issue search warrants for non-crimes.  Rarely, we can issue Inspection Warrants for this kind of situation.  (Normally to allow fire inspections for uncooperative landlords or business owners or allow the authorities to inspect a distillery for regulatory compliance.  That kind of thing.)  But "administrative warrants," normally do not require "probable cause," but are issued on a lesser standard such as "good cause," or some other standard set by the regulatory apparatus.

So, to beat this scenario to death, absent articulable evidence that the owner is deliberate and maliciously emitting the ELT signal, the appropriate authorities will need to seek either the owners cooperation for entry, or seek some sort of administrative warrant.  And when someone comes to me for an admin warrant, the first question I normally ask is "what happened when you asked the owner for consent?"  Ultimately it is difficult for me to imagine a set of circumstances where a hangar owner would not consent to authorities to enter the hangar to shut off an ELT.  This is someone in the aviation business after all, who depends on the good will of the aviation community and regulatory authorities.

Which was my point.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer
Logged
Live2Learn
Seasoned Member

Posts: 476

« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2017, 03:22:34 PM »

Ummmm ya.  "Judge guy" actually IS a judge, so speculate away

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Ah yes, but is he a Magistrate?   8)
Logged
PA Guy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 709

« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2017, 03:30:49 PM »

The horse is dead. Please close this thread that degenerated into a arcing contest.
Logged
spaatzmom
Seasoned Member

Posts: 288

« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2017, 03:42:14 PM »

Ummmm ya.  "Judge guy" actually IS a judge, so speculate away

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Ah yes, but is he a Magistrate?   8)

mag·is·trate
ˈmajəˌstrāt/Submit
noun
a civil officer or lay judge who administers the law, especially one who conducts a court that deals with minor offenses and holds preliminary hearings for more serious ones.

How does a sitting judge for over 25 years on California Supreme Court sound?  Look him up and learn.
Logged
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,122

« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2017, 04:58:49 PM »

I appreciate the kind words, but allow me a little "record-straightening."

I am indeed a California judicial officer, and have been for a little over 25 years, but not on the California Supreme Court.

All judges of the Superior Court, Court of Appeal, and the Supreme Court in California are legally "magistrates" which is a term of art under California law that identifies judicial officers who can issue warrants and conduct preliminary examinations.  We have no judicial officers with the actual job title of "Magistrate."  We are all either "judges" (trial courts) or "justices" (appellate courts).  Kinda like all police officers and Sheriff's deputies are Peace Officers under California law, but nobody really has the job title of "Peace Officer."  Your state may do it a little differently.

But I am not now, nor have I ever been a Federal Magistrate Judge which is an inferior (in the non-judgmental sense) Federal judicial officer who is hired by a District Court and serves at their pleasure.

But the legal principles I have described are true for both federal and state law.

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer
Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,080
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2017, 05:20:13 PM »

And I think we're done here.

If you think you have something new, and relevant, PM me with what you have, and we'll consider turning it back on.

Click.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Uncooperative Hangar Owner
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.42 seconds with 20 queries.