Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
December 13, 2017, 08:47:43 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: CAP "Separation" from Air Force
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2  All Print
Author Topic: CAP "Separation" from Air Force  (Read 3148 times)
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 38

« on: July 21, 2017, 08:09:54 PM »

Many people claim that the "separation" of CAP to an independent corporation was not a good idea. They say Air Force personnel were at CAP practice, some missions, and even CAP units on AF bases. Is the Civil Air Patrol only truly an auxiliary of the AF when on an Air Force Assigned Missions?

When did this "separation" occur? I notice "separation" is always in quotes.

Was it a good or bad thing? What is this all about?
Logged
A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,612

« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2017, 08:33:59 PM »

Huh?!  Go back and reread our history.
Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2017, 10:26:36 PM »

Huh?!  Go back and reread our history.

The histories I read all skip this.

I did find the below from an old thread on this website. So how is it working out? Was CAP better when it was closer to the Air Force?

Quote
at one time (pre-BRAC) CAP was the AF Aux all of the time and National Headquarters was manned with just Active Duty Air Force and DAF Civilians.
And the Air Force had very little to do with day to day operations...
Logged
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 10,587

« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2017, 02:41:33 AM »

At one time....the Commander of CAP was and AD USAF general.  Sometime in the late 60's early 70's (IIRC) that changed to a volunteer. 
Then sometime in the 90's there was a big scandal and the BOG was formed to govern CAP.

The "separation"  that most people talk about....lots of AD at missions, AD and Reserve USAF members assigned to wings, and lots of help on base....all went away in the 90's when the USAF (and the other services) went through the first big draw down following the cold war (and the first Gulf War).

The whole "AUX ON/AUX OFF" thing.....CAP is only the Auxiliary during AFAMs....is a legal point on who pays for what in the case of an accident.
It is important from a legal point of view....but for all practical purposes we are ALWAYS the Official Civilian Auxiliary to the USAF.

Those who talk about the separation being a bad thing......are right.....back in the day...CAP had a lot more day to day support from the USAF.....but back in the day the USAF had twice the number of people and they were not fighting several wars at once.    In 1986 when I joined the USAF we had 600,000+ troops in the USAF.    Today we only have 300,000+ Airman.   But the level of USAF operations tempo went up...not down.   Something had to give....and it was the amount of support bases could give to local CAP organizations.

That's the long and short of it.

Everything else that follows is usually just opinion....and we all have one.

Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 124
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2017, 10:55:19 AM »

My thought is that this is about money and USAF manning. In the 1960s there were quite a few AF people and reservists that worked with CAP. However, I don't remember any CAP owned aircraft and if you had a vehicle it was probably a clapped out ex-AF one. Today (I rejoined recently) there are corporate aircraft and vehicles (costing a lot of money) and very few AF people. So far I have met one, a retired AF officer who works (apparently as a GS) for Pacific Region.
Logged
Mustang
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 690

« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2017, 03:09:13 AM »

CAP became the Occasional Auxiliary in October 2000, after a number of senior CAP leaders [embarrassed themselves] in ways that Big Blue did not appreciate.

Since then, AF support of CAP has dropped off big-time.  We can't even get on most AF installations without a sponsor anymore.

And yet, irony: HQ CAP-USAF still has two full-time AF enlisted billets dedicated to airlift support. When was the last time anybody reading this received USAF airlift anywhere?

[replaced inappropriate text]
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 09:22:11 PM by SarDragon » Logged
"Amateurs train until they get it right; Professionals train until they cannot get it wrong. "

G+10
Recruit

Posts: 49

« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 11:57:01 AM »

At one time....the Commander of CAP was and AD USAF general. 

Wasn't there a time when the wing commanders we're also staffed by CAP-USAF personnel, usually reservists?

John
Logged
FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,145

« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 02:50:17 PM »

CAP-USAF personnel provided Liaison support to wings until 1998, when civilian employees took over (simple story).  Wing commanders were members of CAP.

 The "stepped on" mess happened in 1998-99, when after an FBI raid at NHQs took place, the Air Force and Congress decided a change in governance was needed (another simplification, but it's been almost 20 years).  Let's just say things are not the same as they were back then...
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,682
Unit: of issue

« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 03:15:15 PM »

At one time....the Commander of CAP was and AD USAF general.  Sometime in the late 60's early 70's (IIRC) that changed to a volunteer. 

1975. BG Westberg was the last AD CAP National Commander. General Patterson became the first "volunteer" CAP National Commander after that.

I believe it was after 1975 that the CAP-USAF commander was then "dual-hatted" as the head of the USAF HQ element (CAP-USAF) and as the "Executive Director" of the Civil Air Patrol corporation. 

The last USAF GO to serve as the CAP-USAF commander was BG David L. Patton from 1981 to 1984. After that, the CAP-USAF commander has been a colonel.

Quote
Then sometime in the 90's there was a big scandal and the BOG was formed to govern CAP.

The C&B and legislative changes that brought in the BoG happened around 2000, during General Bobick's term. My memory is hazy on the whens and the wheres, but the so-called "FBI Raid" occurred the year before that, like July or August 1999,  My memory is hazy , but I recall that is what caused Congress to propose the BoG.

Quote
The "separation"  that most people talk about....lots of AD at missions, AD and Reserve USAF members assigned to wings, and lots of help on base....all went away in the 90's when the USAF (and the other services) went through the first big draw down following the cold war (and the first Gulf War).

In the early-mid 1990s, the USAF JAG formed the opinion that an active-duty USAF officer could not also be the executive director of a quasi-public corporation, and thus "Civil Air Patrol, Inc" was separated from CAP-USAF with the appointment of an civilian Executive Director and the HQ that was formerly administered by USAF personnel (both uniformed and civilian) was then staffed with personnel hired as employees of "Civil Air Patrol, Inc."  That really was the defining "event" of the separation. 5 years before the so-called "raid," and 6 years before the BoG was formed.

Sure, some of it had to do with funding and the reduction in the size of the Air Force, too. BRAC and other things.

Remember, most wings had an Active Duty USAF liaison officer and usually an active duty NCO as well.  Upon the "corporatization" in 1994, these liaison positions became first, I believe, USAF employees, then CAP, Inc employees (caveat: It might not have been right away in 1994... it may have happened over a period of time.. my brain discarded a lot of this info when it wasn't needed).  Eventually the 2-man liaison offices became one man, then there were things like 1 "state director" covering 2-3 states with an "assistant state director" in the ones where the state director didn't live, etc. Just a few years ago, all the state director positions were eliminated and that oversight pulled into the USAF Liaison Regions.

We had CAP-RAP Officers and NCOs way back in the 70s, 80s and 90s, and even things like IMA positions for the wings to coordinate all the RAP personnel.  So there was always lots of USAFR support for CAP with "points-only" reservists.


Quote
Everything else that follows is usually just opinion....and we all have one.

Well, I tried to make my opinion as factual as possible. :)

Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 04:38:53 PM »

It would seem to me that the Air Force's request to take over CAP in 1999 should of been granted. All those people "lobbying" would of been removed. If the Air Force had true control over CAP, CAP would be more integrated to the Air Force. The Air Force was (is) right.

Who would you rather serve, an Air Force general or a CAP board?

Coast Guard auxiliarists are recognized as being part of the Coast Guard and are permitted to serve with active duty Coast Guard on Coast Guard ships. All the CAP members I know would prefer a relationship to the Air Force like that.

An auxiliary to the military should not be self-governing, the Air Force was correct.

Quote
Air Force officials said they negotiated with CAP for tighter oversight. When CAP leadership rebuffed them, the Air Force asked the Senate to include language in the Defense Authorization Bill that would turn control of CAP to the Air Force. CAP responded with a lobbying campaign that eventually resulted in negotiations mediated http://auxbeacon.org/cap-national-headquarters-raided-by-fbi/
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 04:42:35 PM by zippy » Logged
Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,122

« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2017, 05:04:46 PM »

It would seem to me that the Air Force's request to take over CAP in 1999 should of been granted. All those people "lobbying" would of been removed. If the Air Force had true control over CAP, CAP would be more integrated to the Air Force. The Air Force was (is) right.

Who would you rather serve, an Air Force general or a CAP board?

Coast Guard auxiliarists are recognized as being part of the Coast Guard and serve with Coast Guard active duty on Coast Guard ships. All the CAP members I know would prefer a relationship to the Air Force like that.

An auxiliary to the military should not be self-governing, the Air Force was correct.

Quote
Air Force officials said they negotiated with CAP for tighter oversight. When CAP leadership rebuffed them, the Air Force asked the Senate to include language in the Defense Authorization Bill that would turn control of CAP to the Air Force. CAP responded with a lobbying campaign that eventually resulted in negotiations mediated http://auxbeacon.org/cap-national-headquarters-raided-by-fbi/

If you'll forgive an old guy's recollection of the "USAF-governed" era, let me remind us all of a few things.

First, the AF officers assigned to NHQ were detailed for one tour, at most.  This meant they turned over every couple of years, taking their institutional skills and memories with them.  That meant that essentially by definition, most were new at their CAP jobs and on the wrong side of the learning curve.  And I noticed even at the time, that especially for the National Commander / Executive Director slot for the general officer, it was almost always a "fini" tour for a retiring officer at the end of their career.  Sometimes that meant that their focus might not have been on enhancing organizational effectiveness to ensure promotion and a more desirable command after CAP.  I suspect relatively few career-oriented AF officers put down "CAP" as one of their dream tours.

Similarly, NHQ also staffed by GS DAF workers.  Well-intentioned government workers, and by-and-large terrific people.  But government workers in a headquarters function are sometimes referred to as a "bureaucracy" with all of the red tape, occasional inefficiency, and a lack of a clear meritocracy that that implies.  (Full disclosure:  I am a state employee employed in a large government agency.)

Also bear in mind that the AF-governed CAP was part of a much larger organization with multiple layers of command and control headquarters above us, all of which were competing for the resources and personnel before they filtered down to us.  The decision-making process for major decisions could involve up to four additional layers of general staff above the CAP commanding general.  Rarely a quick turn-around.

For better or worse, in some ways we are much better off with long-term knowledgeable and experienced NHQ employees (who can actually receive bonuses for good work, or be terminated for inadequate performance), and a far more agile decision-making ability for internal matters.

At the squadron level where most CAP members work quietly performing missions, I suspect they would hardly notice one way or another.  Which is almost certainly the way it has always been as we work through our various transitions and governance changes. 

I guess my point is "be careful what you ask for" in this regard.  Even in the "good old days" of AF control, members complained about "those guys" at higher being too slow on paperwork and unresponsive to unit needs.

Can we do better?  Certainly.  But I'm not sure that road inevitably leads to the past.

Ned Lee
Old Guy and CAP Governance Wonk
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,682
Unit: of issue

« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2017, 06:51:22 PM »

It would seem to me that the Air Force's request to take over CAP in 1999 should of been granted. All those people "lobbying" would of been removed. If the Air Force had true control over CAP, CAP would be more integrated to the Air Force. The Air Force was (is) right.

Who would you rather serve, an Air Force general or a CAP board?

Coast Guard auxiliarists are recognized as being part of the Coast Guard and are permitted to serve with active duty Coast Guard on Coast Guard ships. All the CAP members I know would prefer a relationship to the Air Force like that.

An auxiliary to the military should not be self-governing, the Air Force was correct.

Quote
Air Force officials said they negotiated with CAP for tighter oversight. When CAP leadership rebuffed them, the Air Force asked the Senate to include language in the Defense Authorization Bill that would turn control of CAP to the Air Force. CAP responded with a lobbying campaign that eventually resulted in negotiations mediated http://auxbeacon.org/cap-national-headquarters-raided-by-fbi/

Nevermind those pesky laws and US Code that didn't allow for it (good or bad).  I mean, if thats what the AF needed, then Congress should have provided in the law. But prior to 1999, either it wasn't clearly needed, there wasn't sufficient Congressional support (from either the CAP side or the AF side) or things were "working OK" (note I said "OK" and not "awesome." I'm sure, like Jello, there was room for improvement..) or at least "OK enough to not require intervention from Congress."

And then, in 1999/2000, it was not working OK enough.
Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
zippy
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 07:04:40 PM »

I guess my point is "be careful what you ask for" in this regard.  Even in the "good old days" of AF control, members complained about "those guys" at higher being too slow on paperwork and unresponsive to unit needs.
There are Air Force officers on the CAP Board of Governors, so there is still some hands-on control.
When CAP was CAP during WW2 it was commanded by an Army general. Every person that I ever heard of said CAP was best during WW2.
Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,877

« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2017, 08:28:15 PM »

At one time....the Commander of CAP was and AD USAF general. 

Wasn't there a time when the wing commanders we're also staffed by CAP-USAF personnel, usually reservists?

John


I don't remember that happening, and I've been in CAP since 1969... ???

Dave, do you remember anything about this?
Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,877

« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2017, 08:35:55 PM »

Hey Zippy, the Aux Beacon is not exactly an unbiased source. So I would not put a lot of trust in what you read there...
Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,079
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2017, 09:29:30 PM »

At one time....the Commander of CAP was and AD USAF general. 

Wasn't there a time when the wing commanders we're also staffed by CAP-USAF personnel, usually reservists?

John
I don't remember that happening, and I've been in CAP since 1969... ???

Dave, do you remember anything about this?

If that was ever the case (I'm doubtful), it was before my time (1964).

At one time, there were AD AF officer Liaison Officers, usually  on a final tour, with an AD enlisted admin guy, but that went away a bunch of years ago.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,711
Unit: Earth

« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2017, 09:31:40 PM »

I don't remember that happening, and I've been in CAP since 1969... ???

Dave, do you remember anything about this?

Cannot speak for all wings, but I know the history of my wing did not involve any AD Army or Air Force officers at any time.  Our first wing commander (and the next few after that) was head of the State Aeronautical Board.  They have all been volunteers.
Logged
N Harmon
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 776
Unit: GLR-MI-063

Monroe Composite Squadron
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2017, 10:07:00 PM »

Hey Zippy, the Aux Beacon is not exactly an unbiased source. So I would not put a lot of trust in what you read there...

Is the Zippy here the same Zippy who posted this comment to that Aux Beacon story?

Thank you for capturing this 1999 CAP FBI Raid Story from USA Today. It helped us to expose the kool-aid drinkers on CAP Talk this evening. Your editors and readers should take a look at that exchange over on CAP Talk. I was able to find the original source for this story in a subscription news archive, so it checks good. You should probably add a photograph of the story to counter the lies they are telling to cover up this event. Good work.

 ::)
Logged
NATHAN A. HARMON, Capt, CAP
Monroe Composite Squadron
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 865

« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2017, 10:23:06 PM »

Hey Zippy, the Aux Beacon is not exactly an unbiased source. So I would not put a lot of trust in what you read there...

Is the Zippy here the same Zippy who posted this comment to that Aux Beacon story?


Ziggy ... not Zippy.  Little details matter ;)
Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP
LTC Don
Seasoned Member

Posts: 354
Unit: MER-NC-143

JoCo CAP
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2017, 08:30:53 AM »

Ned's comments are spot on.  As a result, our ES mission and the hit-or-miss culture it has spawned, has suffered horrendously.  Rather than being a full-fledged partner with the new FEMA as it was being born and developed through the 1970's, we have what we have now.  A mess.  Even Air Force Emergency Management (AFEM) is a relatively new creation (they do have a fabulous Facebook page though), and again, CAP and USAF aren't talking, cooperating, or training together.   :'(


That's not to say, as Ned relates, that the people weren't high-speed, it was the Cold War mentality that so affected our domestic mission.
Logged
Donald A. Beckett, Lt Col, CAP
Commander
MER-NC-143
Gill Rob Wilson #1891
Pages: [1] 2  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: CAP "Separation" from Air Force
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.589 seconds with 20 queries.
click here to email me