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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Do you have to shine boots for ABU's
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Author Topic: Do you have to shine boots for ABU's  (Read 5005 times)
NIN
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Unit: of issue

« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2017, 11:47:45 AM »

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.

I hadn't heard that...

I suspect that eventually black boots might go away, especially as we approach the loss of BDUs, since the only real reason to keep them at that point is commonality with BBDU.

Remember, white t-shirts with BDUs was the order of the day when we first transitioned, and cooler heads eventually prevailed.

Honestly, I don't get the angst and the beef with black boots. *whaevs*
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Toad1168
Forum Regular

Posts: 120
Unit: NCR-MO-110

« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2017, 11:54:42 AM »

Back in the day, I was one of the "mirror polish" guys.  But I also had my BDUs starched so heavy they could stand on their own.  With the ABUs, starch is a no-go and that mirror polish just doesn't look right.  Make sure they are clean and that they are black, and you're good to go.  As far as the sage boots, change or don't change.  I like the look of them, but don't mind the black either.

As far as the idea that boot shining is some type of character or team builder, I don't buy it.  Never have, never will.
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Mike Toedebusch
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Eclipse
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2017, 12:16:56 PM »

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.
I hadn't heard that...

I suspect that eventually black boots might go away, especially as we approach the loss of BDUs, since the only real reason to keep them at that point is commonality with BBDU.

Remember, white t-shirts with BDUs was the order of the day when we first transitioned, and cooler heads eventually prevailed.

Honestly, I don't get the angst and the beef with black boots. *whaevs*

Biggest two issues with "not black"...

They can be ruined easily in normal use, especially by cadets.

They will never be available at Walmart.

I could destroy sage boots with a Venti Mocha or a chocolate milk, while the same thing happening on black Walmart boots would be barely visible.

Edit: fixed quotes
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 02:33:20 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Jester
Forum Regular

Posts: 196

« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2017, 01:38:43 PM »



As far as the idea that boot shining is some type of character or team builder, I don't buy it.  Never have, never will.

Agreed. I also find it amusing when people that swear up and down that shining footwear is some kind of massive character builder for cadets wears corfams or something non-shined.

Just another thing in CAP that's supposedly great for cadets, but somehow doesn't apply to seniors.
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kwe1009
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Posts: 696

« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2017, 01:54:27 PM »



As far as the idea that boot shining is some type of character or team builder, I don't buy it.  Never have, never will.

Agreed. I also find it amusing when people that swear up and down that shining footwear is some kind of massive character builder for cadets wears corfams or something non-shined.

Just another thing in CAP that's supposedly great for cadets, but somehow doesn't apply to seniors.

Have you ever been to an encampment and watched a group of cadets sitting around together shining boots?  That is certainly a team building exercise.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2017, 02:34:14 PM »

Have you ever been to an encampment and watched a group of cadets sitting around together shining boots?  That is certainly a team building exercise waste of valuable time.

Fixed that for you...
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NIN
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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2017, 03:22:03 PM »

Have you ever been to an encampment and watched a group of cadets sitting around together shining boots?  That is certainly a team building exercise.

I won't say its a waste of time like Eclipse just did.  There are some aspects of "cadet life" that are meant to be experienced in moderation.

That said, sitting around shooting the breeze while polishing your boots is a "dual use exercise."  I'd call it more "personal bonding" than specific "team building."  You need to polish boots anyway, so might as well make it like a "campfire" type exercise.

One year when I was encampment commander, all the senior staff was on the same floor of an entirely separate barracks building from where the cadets were at. We all sat in the hall between our rooms polishing our boots and polishing off some adult soft drinks that one of our guys brought. There was some "bonding time" going on there.  Most of that crew are still my closest friends (not because of the boots, but the experience certainly helped).
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
SCE124
Newbie

Posts: 1

« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2017, 07:14:53 PM »

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.
I hadn't heard that...

I suspect that eventually black boots might go away, especially as we approach the loss of BDUs, since the only real reason to keep them at that point is commonality with BBDU.

Remember, white t-shirts with BDUs was the order of the day when we first transitioned, and cooler heads eventually prevailed.

Honestly, I don't get the angst and the beef with black boots. *whaevs*

Biggest two issues with "not black"...

They can be ruined easily in normal use, especially by cadets.

They will never be available at Walmart.

I could destroy sage boots with a Venti Mocha or a chocolate milk, while the same thing happening on black Walmart boots would be barely visible.

Edit: fixed quotes

I will just leave this right here... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Interceptor-Men-s-Frontier-Military-Boot/54791683?variantFieldId=actual_color Not to mention free 2 day shipping to your home, or any Walmart store in the county!
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A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,606

« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2017, 09:42:40 PM »

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.
I hadn't heard that...

I suspect that eventually black boots might go away, especially as we approach the loss of BDUs, since the only real reason to keep them at that point is commonality with BBDU.

Remember, white t-shirts with BDUs was the order of the day when we first transitioned, and cooler heads eventually prevailed.

Honestly, I don't get the angst and the beef with black boots. *whaevs*

Biggest two issues with "not black"...

They can be ruined easily in normal use, especially by cadets.

They will never be available at Walmart.

I could destroy sage boots with a Venti Mocha or a chocolate milk, while the same thing happening on black Walmart boots would be barely visible.

Edit: fixed quotes

I will just leave this right here... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Interceptor-Men-s-Frontier-Military-Boot/54791683?variantFieldId=actual_color Not to mention free 2 day shipping to your home, or any Walmart store in the county!
Pure garbage.  I'll leave it right there.
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"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2017, 10:15:25 PM »

I will just leave this right here... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Interceptor-Men-s-Frontier-Military-Boot/54791683?variantFieldId=actual_color Not to mention free 2 day shipping to your home, or any Walmart store in the county!

Well alrighty then, that negates the argument about availability, but I could still wreck them with a mocha.

Pure garbage.  I'll leave it right there.

Not for CAP members.  At the wear rate of 4-8 some hours a month on average, those will last a decade.

On top of that the average cadet will grow out of them before they are broken in.

Anyone spending more then $50 for boots in a CAP context, especially if they don't do something like NESA,
is wasting their money.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,807

« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2017, 10:59:56 PM »

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.

I hadn't heard that...

I suspect that eventually black boots might go away, especially as we approach the loss of BDUs, since the only real reason to keep them at that point is commonality with BBDU.

Remember, white t-shirts with BDUs was the order of the day when we first transitioned, and cooler heads eventually prevailed.

Honestly, I don't get the angst and the beef with black boots. *whaevs*

Two reasons we still wear black boots with the ABU.
1. They're widely available for reasonable prices.
2. They make it easier to tell that we're CAP and not the Air Force.
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DocJekyll
Member

Posts: 93

« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2017, 12:22:52 PM »

I will just leave this right here... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Interceptor-Men-s-Frontier-Military-Boot/54791683?variantFieldId=actual_color Not to mention free 2 day shipping to your home, or any Walmart store in the county!

Well alrighty then, that negates the argument about availability, but I could still wreck them with a mocha.

Pure garbage.  I'll leave it right there.

Not for CAP members.  At the wear rate of 4-8 some hours a month on average, those will last a decade.

On top of that the average cadet will grow out of them before they are broken in.

Anyone spending more then $50 for boots in a CAP context, especially if they don't do something like NESA,
is wasting their money.

The ONLY reason I started buying more expensive boots is because I started trashing the cheaper pairs I would buy. First pair for CAP as a cadet were Altama, 2nd pair too. Those lasted my whole cadet career, through ES and everything, but when I started really hitting things hard, and doing a lot of flight time, working near daily in them it didn't last. I had some Blackhawk Ops boots that were waterproof. Good for the damp Indiana fields, but in FLWG they just burn me up. I just bought Solomons and love them already.

To each their own. You've got to judge your level and severity of use and weigh that against how much you're spending on boots. Either way on the sage or black I'll be covered. I think we're already distinctive enough that a change in boots won't matter, and sage seem to look better with the ABU, but when you couple all the other uniform types I can see why we stayed.
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hamburgee
Recruit

Posts: 14

« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2017, 09:47:38 PM »

2. They make it easier to tell that we're CAP and not the Air Force.
I believe anyone from the military who needs to make the distinction between us and our "actual" components would be able to simply from looking at us (hence blue tapes, badges, rank, etc) would be able to without even looking at our boots, but that's just my opinion.
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PHall
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Posts: 5,807

« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2017, 02:54:59 AM »

2. They make it easier to tell that we're CAP and not the Air Force.
I believe anyone from the military who needs to make the distinction between us and our "actual" components would be able to simply from looking at us (hence blue tapes, badges, rank, etc) would be able to without even looking at our boots, but that's just my opinion.

The requirement in the reg is to be "distinguishable in low light conditions." The black boots meet that requirement.
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Nick
Seasoned Member

Posts: 454
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2017, 03:01:53 PM »

Sage is never going to happen.

Care for a little side bet on that?
Yeah, I'm with ya ... the day after the AF finishes rolling out the coyote tan boots with their OCPs, CAP will be authorized the sage green boots.
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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2017, 08:48:46 PM »

The Air Force did not require CAP to wear black boots with the ABUs. This was a decision made by the CAP Uniform Board and National leadership based on perceived cost and practicality. This could change in the future, but probably not for a long time, if it does at all.
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 863

« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2017, 12:00:35 PM »

The Air Force did not require CAP to wear black boots with the ABUs. This was a decision made by the CAP Uniform Board and National leadership based on perceived cost and practicality. This could change in the future, but probably not for a long time, if it does at all.

This.

It was even published by NHQ that the reason for the black boots being kept on with the BDU-to-ABU transition was because of the practicality for members to be able to decrease their equipment costs in not having to purchase a new pair of boots. It also prevented a mismatch of sage/black leather boots worn with the ABU if it was to be an optional choice.

Personally, I would have preferred the suedes. I never had any issues cleaning them off after being in the field, and they worked just fine.


Have you ever been to an encampment and watched a group of cadets sitting around together shining boots?  That is certainly a team building exercise waste of valuable time.

Fixed that for you...

I agree entirely with this "correction." Call it a discipline factor or whatever you want. It's a colossal waste of time from a training standpoint. Sure, if you have endless hours where you can afford to tell everyone to either study on their "down time" or shine their boots, I can get that. But when you have very limited time, such as during a unit meeting (and I've seen units spend an hour on boot polishing), that is indeed a waste of time. You can try and argue all you want that it teaches them respect for their equipment and their uniform. It doesn't, and with all of the other uniform violations that exist, shiny boots isn't going to fix that in CAP. If the black boots went away tomorrow and everyone magically wore the suedes, you aren't going to see any loss in team-building, respect for the uniform, or discipline. 


On the argument of the uniform being "distinguishable," I call phooey on it. It is a distinguishable uniform. The tapes say "Civil Air Patrol" as opposed to "U.S. Air Force." There you go. I don't see this big deal about making it stand out so much that nobody in the Air Force could possibly mistake the CAP uniform from the Air Force uniform.

I fully understand that this is the proposal CAP gave to the Air Force in the transition (and from what I understand, and I could be mistaken, CAP presented the uniform to the Air Force to approve, not the Air Force mandating CAP to use the color combination we ended up with). But I don't see why it's such a big issue to wear camouflage matching nametapes with different lettering.

Look at the Sea Cadets---yes, I'm going to point a finger and say "Another group that isn't us does this" (the we're not the Sea Cadets can get over it). They wear the Navy Working Uniform (NWU). It's the exact same uniform with the exception of some changes to the patches. The Navy's NWU has a tape that says "U.S. Navy" in NWU pattern with silver lettering. The Sea Cadets' NWU has a tape that says "USNSCC" in NWU pattern with silver lettering. The Navy wears the ship/eagle on the left breast pocket. The Sea Cadets wear a distinctive patch on their right break pocket and cover.

The Air Force can do whatever it wants separate from the Navy. But I don't buy the "people will confuse us!" The general public, most of them at least, doesn't know the difference anyway. Air Force personnel can't be that stupid to confuse it, except for maybe a few newer Airmen who might not be aware of CAP's existence.

That's my rant for the moment.
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Paul Creed III
Forum Regular

Posts: 187
Unit: GLR-OH-254

« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2017, 08:08:18 AM »

The Air Force did not require CAP to wear black boots with the ABUs. This was a decision made by the CAP Uniform Board and National leadership based on perceived cost and practicality. This could change in the future, but probably not for a long time, if it does at all.

This.

It was even published by NHQ that the reason for the black boots being kept on with the BDU-to-ABU transition was because of the practicality for members to be able to decrease their equipment costs in not having to purchase a new pair of boots. It also prevented a mismatch of sage/black leather boots worn with the ABU if it was to be an optional choice.


If sage is ever authorized for our ABUs, they need to be for the sage flight suit as well - otherwise, members wearing Air Force-style field and flight uniforms would need two sets of boots.
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Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
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« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2017, 05:34:37 PM »



If sage is ever authorized for our ABUs, they need to be for the sage flight suit as well - otherwise, members wearing Air Force-style field and flight uniforms would need two sets of boots.

Actually the sage green flight suit is not authorized for CAP.  However the Olive Drab flight suit is.
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Paul Creed III
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« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2017, 05:55:13 PM »



If sage is ever authorized for our ABUs, they need to be for the sage flight suit as well - otherwise, members wearing Air Force-style field and flight uniforms would need two sets of boots.

Actually the sage green flight suit is not authorized for CAP.  However the Olive Drab flight suit is.

While 39-1 most certainly calls the USAF FDU "olive drab" (many times over), the "official" FDU and flight jacket on Vanguard is "sage green" and finding a Nomex "olive drab" FDU via a quick Google yielded no results.
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Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
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