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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Flight Line Marshaller, Emergency Services?
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jfkspotting
Member

Posts: 93
Unit: NER-NY-328

Instagram Acct:
« on: May 30, 2017, 06:56:38 PM »

I'm considering becoming qualified for FLM, marshaling aircraft/aircrews instead of getting GT3. Is this attainable, or recommended?

Does anyone have FLM here that can share some info?

I'm a cadet with all GES completed. Is this possible? I'm more into the drill/aviation side of Emergency services...not GT.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 626

« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2017, 07:25:04 PM »

I don't want to poo-poo your FLM dreams nor discourage anyone from getting training. Additionally, each wing is different, but if yours is like mine, there isn't a need for FLMs. We rarely have more than one airplane coming and going from a flight line and rarely more than two at the same airport. Marshelling a pilot to a pre-marked parking spot on the ramp is a waste of your time, especially since most pilots ignore the cadet waving their arms because they know exactly where to park because that's where they've parked a million times before (in fact some of the pilots don't seem to know the signals).

That said, ask your emergency services officer at your squadron as he/she will know what the need is for FLM and how difficult it will be to find FLM instructors/Skills Evaluator Training (SET) folks to get you trained and signed off.

Even if there isn't need for it in your wing, if you can get the training, do it, it's fun, especially if you enjoy learning new things. Just be prepared for the reality that you may not get to use it much.
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jfkspotting
Member

Posts: 93
Unit: NER-NY-328

Instagram Acct:
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2017, 07:30:46 PM »

I don't want to poo-poo your FLM dreams nor discourage anyone from getting training. Additionally, each wing is different, but if yours is like mine, there isn't a need for FLMs. We rarely have more than one airplane coming and going from a flight line and rarely more than two at the same airport. Marshelling a pilot to a pre-marked parking spot on the ramp is a waste of your time, especially since most pilots ignore the cadet waving their arms because they know exactly where to park because that's where they've parked a million times before (in fact some of the pilots don't seem to know the signals).

That said, ask your emergency services officer at your squadron as he/she will know what the need is for FLM and how difficult it will be to find FLM instructors/Skills Evaluator Training (SET) folks to get you trained and signed off.

Even if there isn't need for it in your wing, if you can get the training, do it, it's fun, especially if you enjoy learning new things. Just be prepared for the reality that you may not get to use it much.

I appreciate it: And definitely value your advice. We are the second largest squadron in NY wing, and usually have 3-aircraft, two of which go our every TRAEX (Usually two 182's or one 182/one206) GT3 just seems to unattainable to me. I'm thinking of being a radio operator and FLM only at the ES side.

I'm the guy that like staying at the base because of the free coffee :)   http://captalk.net/Smileys/default/huh.gif
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 963
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 08:03:38 PM »

Hi, JFK.

I must ask (since I responded to the other "how long does it take for GTM3" post), why do you feel that GTM3 is "unattainable"?

I understand your interest in the air side, but "unattainable" isn't a good thing. We'd hope that the rating is accessible to anyone who wants to strike for it (and, I've signed off a cadet in the past who was legally blind - no joke - we evaluate case by case).  If you feel that you can't access the training, or that you're being prevented from pursuing it, your leadership chain needs to know.

On this specific question, I am forced to agree with Fubar completely. I once earned the flight line supervisor quals on my way to being an MC/IC, and never really had occasion to use them. I've only flown in one actual DR mission (1993 MS floods, MOWG) where the specialty was used, because of the combo of numerous out of Wing/out of Region aircrews coupled with tight ramp space due to the loss of seven local airports. CAP does not, in my experience, use FLMs much at all. Highly recommend pursuing comm expertise, if that's your thing, but don't forget that you'll be age-eligible to apply for MS, then MO training at age 18!


Cheers
Spam


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EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,824

« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2017, 10:03:56 PM »

The only time I've seen FLMs be useful was during Sandy, when we had 17 non-local CAP aircraft serviced at our hangar during one very busy day. Otherwise, pilots seem to find thier way around just fine.
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Ozzy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 320
Unit: NY

NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2017, 10:11:33 PM »

JFK, the place you should be asking a lot of these questions are from within your squadron. I've seen quite a few cadets from NY-328 at the last few SARExs and training missions. Also, this weekend (June 3rd and 4th), NY-117 is going to be having a joint ES training bivouac with the Venture Crew (Boy Scouts) where most of GTM3 will be covered, if you want more information, I'll pass it along to you and your squadron commander/ES officer.

As for FLM, you can get the training for it when you come to the SARExs, we usually have a few people FLM SET qualified at each exercise.
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
C/Lt. Colonel (Ret.)
SGT, ARNG (Out!)

NYWG Encampment 07, 08, 09, 10, (17)
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NER Cadet Leadership School 10
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,080
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2017, 10:59:23 PM »

Currently, IMHO, I think getting qualified as FLM is a waste of time. That was the first ES job I learned, as a cadet, and back then, it was a handy skill to have. It was an easy way to get cadets involved in ES.

Times have changed, and, as noted above, there is no longer a great need. I let my FLM and FLS expire, because I just wasn't doing that job any more.

Among the potential obstacles to cadet participation on this activity are Complete Basic First Aid Training or Equivalent and Task O-3013 - Demonstrate the Ability to Fuel an Aircraft. Most of the time we don't fuel aircraft, and most places I've been to where CAP members do their own refueling, someone from the aircrew does it.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 28,072

« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2017, 11:25:14 PM »

A lot of the airports CAP operates require professional airport employees do any
marshaling needed, and as mentioned, rare is the mission with enough planes to justify
a manned flight line.

Some people will shout "air show" - same problem.   There are some units that are invested with
a local air show at a level where they get involved, but a lot of them these days are run by
private companies, and generally they want employees (or actually no one) doing marshaling because
of liability issues.

I don't think there's been an FLS or FLM used in my wing in 10 some years.

The occasional large-scale, real world with double-digit planes on a private ramp might utilize FLMs,
but somehow these aircraft are able to function without them the other 364 days of the year.

It's another CAP "thing" that died a decade ago, but no one told it, and never was as big a deal as
people thought.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,080
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2017, 11:59:36 PM »

Quote from: CAPR 900-5"
7. Air Shows.
a. Prohibited Activities. No unit or member of CAP is authorized to sponsor or cosponsor any air show. CAP members may not:
(1) Accept rides in an air show as a part of any official CAP activity.
(2) Be used as security guards or damage control.
(3) Taxi non-CAP aircraft before, during or after an air show.
(4) Direct parking of aircraft unless having received training on aircraft marshalling and having a flight line authorization on CAPF 101 or CAPF 101T.

b. Permitted Activities. CAP units and members may assist with an air show sponsored and conducted wholly by agencies and organizations other than CAP. Prior permission to assist or participate in any air show must be obtained from the General Counsel at National Headquarters. No such advance permission is required if the CAP assistance or participation in an air show is limited to the following:
(1) CAP members may be used as guides or to provide directions or information.
(2) CAP units may setup a recruiting booth and/or a concession stand selling food and drinks on the premises of an air show, providing that CAP is not in any way acting as a sponsor.
(3) CAP members may be used around parked or static display aircraft for guidance, information or direction.

I have seen para (3) interpreted to exclude marshalling.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 626

« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2017, 03:12:27 AM »

I have seen para (3) interpreted to exclude marshalling.

Do you mean a(3)? Because taxiing an aircraft (hoping in to drive) and marshaling an aircraft (pointing where to go) are two very different things.

Not to mention the entire NCSA dedicated to it (although they violate a(2) on a daily basis).
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,080
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2017, 06:12:19 AM »

Yes, I understand the difference, having done both. Others, not so much, sometimes.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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