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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadet Demotion Question
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Brit_in_CAP
Seasoned Member

Posts: 354
Unit: MER-VA-002

« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2017, 10:11:35 AM »

^ I Like this "Cadet run", in some cases, is code for the adults abdicating their responsibility.

The senior are the constant thread that keeps the lights on, the cadets are the transient product,
the more they can do, the better for all involved, but ultimate the seniors will be there when the
cadets age out, move on, or dark side and become one with the force.

Agree, and also agree with Chappie.  I have witnessed the effect of abdication and it's frightening.  I have also witnessed and experienced the progress made when you "facilitate", "guide", "allow soft failures"..etc

We've grown some good cadet NCOs recently and I was a little startled at their proactive approach...then realized this is what I'd been driving towards for months... ::) (couldn't find a face palm emoticon).  Now the challenge is to guide that enthusiasm. 
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Starbux
Recruit

Posts: 42
Unit: SWR-NM-030

« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2017, 01:57:09 PM »

Yeah they need to learn drill for BMT or some commissioning source.

No.

That is *not* the desired outcome that we should be shooting for when we choose to spend our precious few contact hours on drill and ceremonies.

And that is something that needs broaching in the CP community.
Ask your closest 10 fellow CP officers and all of your cadet leaders what the purpose of spending time on drill and ceremonies is (what is the ultimate big picture desired learning objective).



My point was not to get in the discussion of the purpose of DNC is.  Mainly to point out that in some squadrons that's the only function of the cadet leadership. 

I went to one squadron as a RAPO where it was done flawlessly.  Cadets in staff positions would shadow their SM counterparts.  The cadet command staff would be in a planning session with the DCC and would be planning and hashing out future activities.  The cadets were engaged in the program with a reasonable oversight from the senior members.  Essentially describing what your unit does.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 863

« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2017, 12:56:44 PM »

Yeah they need to learn drill for BMT or some commissioning source.

No.

That is *not* the desired outcome that we should be shooting for when we choose to spend our precious few contact hours on drill and ceremonies.

And that is something that needs broaching in the CP community.
Ask your closest 10 fellow CP officers and all of your cadet leaders what the purpose of spending time on drill and ceremonies is (what is the ultimate big picture desired learning objective).



My point was not to get in the discussion of the purpose of DNC is.  Mainly to point out that in some squadrons that's the only function of the cadet leadership. 

I went to one squadron as a RAPO where it was done flawlessly.  Cadets in staff positions would shadow their SM counterparts.  The cadet command staff would be in a planning session with the DCC and would be planning and hashing out future activities.  The cadets were engaged in the program with a reasonable oversight from the senior members.  Essentially describing what your unit does.


The purpose of the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program is not to prepare cadets at any level, regardless of whether or not they intend to go into the United States Armed Forces, to enlist or commission. Cadets don't learn drill to prepare for these things; they learn it as part of a self-discipline, incorporating Air Force tradition, and to provide an opportunity for cadets to teach/lead other cadets in skill development.

When we talk about a "strategic plan" for a cadet unit, we need to constantly be focusing on what our expectations are of cadets, what they want to get from the program, and, most of all, the National Commander's intention for the program. We should be meeting our objectives for well-rounded youth leaders in the community that can transition to adulthood with a certain level of self-reliance and team orientation. We do not train military wannabes in CAP; this is not our goal. If a cadet wants to go into the military, fantastic; good for him/her. I'll do whatever I can to help. But at the end of the day, that's not what we do. We use a military backdrop to implement a leadership training program.

If you are spending half of your meeting time each month doing drill, you're going way overboard; take a look at your strategic plan and see if you're meeting your vision. That is not what this program is about---being masters at drill and ceremony. Some do better than others, but the cadets need to dictate if they really want to excel at Color Guard and/or rifle drill. It's not the basis for the training program, though.

A unit that excels in drill and can't actually run a leadership program is failing its mission, because you have developed expert instructors in drill but have diminished their ability to problem solve and think both individually and collectively to serve the unit and the community. I absolutely believe that letting cadets "run the unit" and having them teach mostly drill is taking them away of what they can be focusing on, and I really see it as laziness on the part of adult leaders.



One thing to point out, especially with those who "run" cadet programs and/or work closely with cadets....okay, anyone really:
Please stop "inventing" new acronyms/initialisms and jargon. I see this a lot in CAP, and it makes for a very non-standardized interface with other units who start to have no clue what you're saying.

It's "CDC," not "DCC."
CD = Deputy Commander (or Commander's Deputy)

CAP actually has manuals on its offices; cadets and seniors should all be taught to reference correct information and use it appropriately.

Excuse the rant here, and I don't mean to come off abrasive, but this really peeves me.
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Shieldel
Member

Posts: 84
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2017, 06:38:20 PM »

Yeah they need to learn drill for BMT or some commissioning source.

No.

That is *not* the desired outcome that we should be shooting for when we choose to spend our precious few contact hours on drill and ceremonies.

And that is something that needs broaching in the CP community.
Ask your closest 10 fellow CP officers and all of your cadet leaders what the purpose of spending time on drill and ceremonies is (what is the ultimate big picture desired learning objective).



My point was not to get in the discussion of the purpose of DNC is.  Mainly to point out that in some squadrons that's the only function of the cadet leadership. 

I went to one squadron as a RAPO where it was done flawlessly.  Cadets in staff positions would shadow their SM counterparts.  The cadet command staff would be in a planning session with the DCC and would be planning and hashing out future activities.  The cadets were engaged in the program with a reasonable oversight from the senior members.  Essentially describing what your unit does.


The purpose of the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program is not to prepare cadets at any level, regardless of whether or not they intend to go into the United States Armed Forces, to enlist or commission. Cadets don't learn drill to prepare for these things; they learn it as part of a self-discipline, incorporating Air Force tradition, and to provide an opportunity for cadets to teach/lead other cadets in skill development.

When we talk about a "strategic plan" for a cadet unit, we need to constantly be focusing on what our expectations are of cadets, what they want to get from the program, and, most of all, the National Commander's intention for the program. We should be meeting our objectives for well-rounded youth leaders in the community that can transition to adulthood with a certain level of self-reliance and team orientation. We do not train military wannabes in CAP; this is not our goal. If a cadet wants to go into the military, fantastic; good for him/her. I'll do whatever I can to help. But at the end of the day, that's not what we do. We use a military backdrop to implement a leadership training program.

If you are spending half of your meeting time each month doing drill, you're going way overboard; take a look at your strategic plan and see if you're meeting your vision. That is not what this program is about---being masters at drill and ceremony. Some do better than others, but the cadets need to dictate if they really want to excel at Color Guard and/or rifle drill. It's not the basis for the training program, though.

A unit that excels in drill and can't actually run a leadership program is failing its mission, because you have developed expert instructors in drill but have diminished their ability to problem solve and think both individually and collectively to serve the unit and the community. I absolutely believe that letting cadets "run the unit" and having them teach mostly drill is taking them away of what they can be focusing on, and I really see it as laziness on the part of adult leaders.



One thing to point out, especially with those who "run" cadet programs and/or work closely with cadets....okay, anyone really:
Please stop "inventing" new acronyms/initialisms and jargon. I see this a lot in CAP, and it makes for a very non-standardized interface with other units who start to have no clue what you're saying.

It's "CDC," not "DCC."
CD = Deputy Commander (or Commander's Deputy)

CAP actually has manuals on its offices; cadets and seniors should all be taught to reference correct information and use it appropriately.

Excuse the rant here, and I don't mean to come off abrasive, but this really peeves me.

We're going off on a tangent here from OP but I'd lke to counter that by saying this is an informal board. If this was formal communication I'd be totally in agreement. While I do follow regulations and manuals and the like, office symbols actually peeve me. Spell it out for what it is. DCC = Deputy Commander for Cadets. Simple. Why we have to abide by "office symbols" that only make things more muddled in my mind is beyond me. Again, I comply in formal settings with regs (such as office symbols) but with a grumble.

Oh and this is a 20 year old Flight Officer talking so maybe this is an age thing as well (me not really giving a rats), but again, this is informal.

Informal in my mind should mean you should have the choice to do the "formal thing" or not. As long as we get what one another is saying, the point gets across right?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 06:43:20 PM by Shieldel » Logged
Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,831

« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2017, 06:55:48 PM »

In all forms of communication there is always a choice, the right way and the wrong way.

It's one thing when you don't know the proper terms, but once you do, using anything else is
just saying "you can't make me".

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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Shieldel
Member

Posts: 84
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2017, 06:58:43 PM »

In all forms of communication there is always a choice, the right way and the wrong way.

It's one thing when you don't know the proper terms, but once you do, using anything else is
just saying "you can't make me".

I'll concede on that note my good sir, you got me there. I got nothing on that. I know cadet abbreviations I don't know senior stuff yet, haven't gotten that far down the list of "Things to learn" quite yet. They've been keeping me away from the cadets anyways. Call it a "senior indoctrination" they want me to know my role first as a senior and learn my job then we'll talk about cadets.
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Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,831

« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2017, 07:00:53 PM »

I don't think you are, but just in case, don't take that personally, most seniors with CP experience consider that a best practice to
let the "dark forces" take hold before being unleashed back at the Jedi Academy.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Shieldel
Member

Posts: 84
Unit: PCR-NV-802

« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2017, 07:05:46 PM »

I don't think you are, but just in case, don't take that personally, most seniors with CP experience consider that a best practice to
let the "dark forces" take hold before being unleashed back at the Jedi Academy.

Apologies sir but I'm not quite following the first part of the comment. Don't think I'm what exactly?...
Oh yeah the "indoctrination" is common practice in NVWG, at least....they try to make it common heh. Too many Cadet->Seniors have stuck in the same squadron, have been immediately thrown into a position and since they weren't...."seniorized" yet they had troubles and burnt out. On Nellis was a perfect example. You had a cadet who turned senior who then was immediately put as CDC (ah see what I did? hah only poking fun since we were JUST talking about it) he of course had troubles and left since he wasn't "seniorized" while trying to learn the HUGE role.
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Flight Officer Michael D. Scheidle
Jack Schofield Cadet Squadron
ES Officer
ES Training Officer
FEMA Corps Class 23 Alumni - FEMA-4277-DR-LA Deployment to Baton Rouge FEMA JFO August - October 2016
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,831

« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2017, 07:11:28 PM »

Apologies sir but I'm not quite following the first part of the comment. Don't think I'm what exactly?...

Taking it personally.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Starbux
Recruit

Posts: 42
Unit: SWR-NM-030

« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2017, 10:36:12 PM »



The purpose of the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program is not to prepare cadets at any level, regardless of whether or not they intend to go into the United States Armed Forces, to enlist or commission. Cadets don't learn drill to prepare for these things; they learn it as part of a self-discipline, incorporating Air Force tradition, and to provide an opportunity for cadets to teach/lead other cadets in skill development.

I never said it was the sole purpose.  I did say, if done correctly it can provide useful skills to build on if someone does pursue a military career. I also said it provided skills valuable to civilian corporate structures as well.  I know full well to all who are reading this, that not every cadet goes further to pursue a military career.  In my time I would say only 25% of us in my group went on to pursue the military afterwords in one form or another.  I already had the ambition to be an military pilot before CAP.  I saw CAP as an opportunity to help further those goals.  I would say things I learned through the years probably helped. Drill was not one of them. Running a cadet wing in senior ROTC was less challenging than running a cadet squadron in CAP, for the various reasons and challenges as previously expressed by everyone.  Also having my private pilot licence helped boost my score on the rated officer selection for pilot, and the access to planes and instructors helped. 



When we talk about a "strategic plan" for a cadet unit, we need to constantly be focusing on what our expectations are of cadets, what they want to get from the program, and, most of all, the National Commander's intention for the program. We should be meeting our objectives for well-rounded youth leaders in the community that can transition to adulthood with a certain level of self-reliance and team orientation. We do not train military wannabes in CAP; this is not our goal. If a cadet wants to go into the military, fantastic; good for him/her. I'll do whatever I can to help. But at the end of the day, that's not what we do. We use a military backdrop to implement a leadership training program.

If you are spending half of your meeting time each month doing drill, you're going way overboard; take a look at your strategic plan and see if you're meeting your vision. That is not what this program is about---being masters at drill and ceremony. Some do better than others, but the cadets need to dictate if they really want to excel at Color Guard and/or rifle drill. It's not the basis for the training program, though.

A unit that excels in drill and can't actually run a leadership program is failing its mission, because you have developed expert instructors in drill but have diminished their ability to problem solve and think both individually and collectively to serve the unit and the community. I absolutely believe that letting cadets "run the unit" and having them teach mostly drill is taking them away of what they can be focusing on, and I really see it as laziness on the part of adult leaders.

I do agree with that. 



One thing to point out, especially with those who "run" cadet programs and/or work closely with cadets....okay, anyone really:
Please stop "inventing" new acronyms/initialisms and jargon. I see this a lot in CAP, and it makes for a very non-standardized interface with other units who start to have no clue what you're saying.

It's "CDC," not "DCC."
CD = Deputy Commander (or Commander's Deputy)

CAP actually has manuals on its offices; cadets and seniors should all be taught to reference correct information and use it appropriately.

Excuse the rant here, and I don't mean to come off abrasive, but this really peeves me.

There are worse things to get spun up over.  That's just me.
Logged
McDaddy2003
Recruit

Posts: 17

« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2017, 05:31:07 AM »

In my experience, a Wing Commander (coordinated via Wing IG to ensure legalities) can authorize additional requirements (based on the demotable offense) during a demotion period for Cadets to accomplish prior to resuming their previous rank. It must be communicated through the chain of the command to the Cadet's respective Unit Commander, and repeal process must be explained. Although this incident occurred at a Wing Event and demotion is under authority of the Wing King, he/she delegated the task of advising the repeal process to the Unit Commander.

Cadet's can still wear achievement/milestone ribbons they earned, but the demotion only affects rank. A cadet can only be demoted no more than 3 achievements, or 2 Achievements and a Milestone Award (180 Days). Also, as an example a Cadet demoted 2-3 achievements does not promote to the next rank after 60 days of honorable service, they must wear the rank demoted to until the Unit Commander/Demotion Authority determines the cadet has satisfactorily met requirements. For Example:

A C/MSgt demoted to C/SSgt can not pin on C/TSgt after 60 Days. After 120 Days the Cadet is promoted to C/MSgt from C/SSgt.
This was interpretation as a promotion to the next rank during a demotion conflicts with "No progression during the promotion period" .

Some Cadets can be sent straight to 2B....sometimes cadets over the age 18 can be "encouraged" to become senior members or depending on "special circumstances", can be encouraged to leave the Cadet Program.
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AtEaseGang
Newbie

Posts: 1
Unit: 069

« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2017, 07:05:49 PM »

If it's really that bad, I favor the 2B.
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McDaddy2003
Recruit

Posts: 17

« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2017, 04:18:24 AM »

True, but based on differing circumstances this is why we have the options to demote or 2b, or if a large number of cadet offenders: Both. In the case I am referring many of the disciplined cadets accepted the demotion and were reinstated to their official ranks 6 months later, a handful immediately dropped out of the cadet program. One even earned the Spaatz Award eventually. Most of the cadets went on to have successful military careers, both enlisted and commissioned. Let's just say the Wing King at the time had exceptional counsel who, determining cadets had make a mistake, still saw value and worth to learn a life lesson and continue service in CAP.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 04:25:22 AM by McDaddy2003 » Logged
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadet Demotion Question
 


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