The original NCO Corps Implementation Plan dated Oct 17, 2013, section 4.3 stated:"Duty Positions: NCO's will be eligible to hold any position within CAP, including pilot, except those normally reserved for officers (e.g. Unit Commanders) and will be assigned at any CAP organizational level; Squadron, Group, Wing, Region or National Headquarters. Where possible, assignments will be rank appropriate and consider the member's professional development training, professional military skills and professional and personal goals. CAP Senior NCO's (MSgt, SMSgt, and CMsgt) may be in charge of a unit designated as a flight (if there are no other officers assigned); however, NCO's will not be authorized to command a Squadron, Group, Wing, or Region."The CAP News release dated Oct 23, 2013 says the same thing:"In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national – except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander."While there is no current regulatory guidance about a CAP NCO unable to be assigned as a unit CC, there was a Draft Input to CAPR 20-1 released to current CAP NCO's earlier this year that uses the exact wording above from the original Implementation Plan. This draft also includes the suggested wording for the duties of the Staff NCO's at each echelon. So if we ever see the release of the updated 20-1 that includes the NCO information we will have the answer to this question. Until then, we are making due with what we have.
IMNSHO:The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military – and this is absolutely true – the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.Points:1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.
Quote from: arajca on August 12, 2017, 10:03:48 PMIMNSHO:The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military – and this is absolutely true – the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.Points:1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.So because I'm an NCO, I'm on an ego trip? If anyone is, it's the officer that walks into the room at a meeting and starts chewing out another SM in front of everyone because he thinks his rank actually means something. I have seen more officers in CAP stroke their own egos in CAP because they think they are something they are not. I have never acted the way I would on active duty, have never chewed out someone, or disrespected someone because I thought I had that right because of my rank as an NCO, but I have seen it from plenty of officers. I don't wear stripes because I think I am better than anyone, or it gives me some certain power to treat people like they are beneath me. I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me!
I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me!
Quote from: grunt82abn on August 14, 2017, 12:43:38 PMQuote from: arajca on August 12, 2017, 10:03:48 PMIMNSHO:The whole CAP NCO program as it exists today is nothing but an ego stroking program for current and former military NCOs. It has been said that NCOs are the backbone of the military – and this is absolutely true – the same cannot be said with CAP. CAP does not have the cast system the military does, and adopting it would likely close many units and cause a major drop in membership.Points:1. Only current and former military NCOs can be CAP NCOs. As such they are expected to pass on the military knowledge for CAP. Fine, until you start letting non-military personnel be NCOs. Then how do you gain the knowledge? Establish a course for them. Great! But why limit it to NCOs? Why not make it available to ALL senior members?2. We have no NCO specific duties. Any CAP member can fill any position.3. Four years on and there is still a statistically insignificant number of CAP NCOs.The NCO program, as dreamt, was the special project of a former national commander. Once he left the position, the program began to wither. Currently, the reg revision rewrite is being blamed for not making progress on it, but there has not been any guidance regarding it from National since it was unveiled. The program was ramrodded through to prevent other ideas from being considered.So because I'm an NCO, I'm on an ego trip? If anyone is, it's the officer that walks into the room at a meeting and starts chewing out another SM in front of everyone because he thinks his rank actually means something. I have seen more officers in CAP stroke their own egos in CAP because they think they are something they are not. I have never acted the way I would on active duty, have never chewed out someone, or disrespected someone because I thought I had that right because of my rank as an NCO, but I have seen it from plenty of officers. I don't wear stripes because I think I am better than anyone, or it gives me some certain power to treat people like they are beneath me. I chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me! I did not say ego TRIP, I said ego STROKING. Different things.QuoteI chose to be an NCO because I like wearing stripes, it is ascetically pleasing to me! So, being an NCO make you feel better about yourself. Got it. Ego stroked.
Wait, what? Me choosing to wear my earned grade from the parent service of this organization is ego-stroking? And the handing out of shiny pins at 6 months and the ability to maintain breathing and sending checks isn't? How about I continue to wear my stripes and do what I do, and the dime-a-dozen officers keep performing at the level of glorified E-3s, and let me do it. They'll get the credit and move along. I'm cool with that because I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business. The probable outcome if tomorrow all senior members were re-graded into a new structure, aligned with their parent service that put them in grade according to their job, would be a mass exodus of members. All these cats want to be #TotalForce but when it comes to what they wear, they start waiving their CAP union card because they're too good to be a lowly Airman. We knowingly took a track that we feel fits us best to make the most contribution to this organization. We pay way more for insignia than the officers we follow. My ego is so stroked right now. Whatever, dude.
...I live for mission accomplishment and taking care of my people, which is NCO business.
I'll try to keep this reply as orderly as I can, I don't know how to multi-quote or whatever in tapatalk. 1) it is workable in the long term. It's a proven structure in any successful military/SDF/etc. 2) in a proper organization, NCOs are the market-owners on tactical-level (i.e. Squadron) leadership of individuals and small teams. 3) that's me, "too cool for school", constantly reading applicable content on dealing with adolescents, going to training on my own initiative to learn how to deal with special needs adolescents, etc to deal with my own identified blindspots and shortfalls as it relates to CAP. I don't think I'm the only one who does that kind of stuff but I won't sit here and be labeled as someone who thinks he has all the answers. 4) my contribution has everything to do with me being at the proper grade for the proper level and scope of influence. A Major doesn't need to be a tactical-level cadet programs officer. He needs to be a CC or on a squadron/group/wing staff. The fact that a Lt Col can work for a 1Lt is out of my span of control. It is what it is, but I own my lane and that's all there is to it. 5) overall, I'm inexplicably tired of putting everything I have into my sector of this organization and my cadets and then see yet another multi-page thread crapping on me and the other 150-200 members who picked a different way to serve, told we're some kind of big problem with CAP, blah blah blah. I'm over it. I'm here to dig out any shred of knowledge I can put to use. I'll go back to doing that, and the rest of CAPTalk can go back to arguing over what constitutes "medium gray" or whatever the controversy of the day is.
If allowing 200-300 members to wear NCO rank, and that gets them through the door, and allows them to become viable members for CAP, then I guess the recruiting tool worked. We gained members we would have otherwise have gotten.
Quote from: grunt82abn on August 14, 2017, 08:21:44 PMIf allowing 200-300 members to wear NCO rank, and that gets them through the door, and allows them to become viable members for CAP, then I guess the recruiting tool worked. We gained members we would have otherwise have gotten.We gained 200-300 members from tweaking the NCO program?
TSgt Riley,Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.
Quote from: 1st Lt Thompson on August 14, 2017, 09:33:10 PMTSgt Riley,Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.Great point!TSGT Sean RileyIL-042
Quote from: grunt82abn on August 14, 2017, 11:06:06 PMQuote from: 1st Lt Thompson on August 14, 2017, 09:33:10 PMTSgt Riley,Looking through the posts, it doesn't appear that anyone really cares what you wear on your shoulders, or if there are CAP NCO's. If it got you in the door, then great, and we're glad to have you, but I don't think it really gets that many people in the door. The CAP NCO program could be a good thing in the long run, if it's given the support it needs, but thus far it hasn't and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. If it works for you, great, but in order for it to work in the long term there needs to be more direction from National on the implementation of the program, which so far there hasn't been.Great point!TSGT Sean RileyIL-042Yes it is, SGT. Like so many other "ideas", this one has not gained support after birth, and is quietly fading away. Why? Because it does not truly fit into CAP's real strategic goals. Wear your stripes proudly, and be an example to your fellow members, however don't expect much to change. Grade Structure in CAP has evolved over the decades, but the officer/airman divide will never come again. CAP respects your AF grade by letting you wear it. Just remember, we have had Military Colonels and Generals join CAP to become CAP Lt COLs, or even stay as SMWOGs! Enjoy your membership.
If we are not a military organization, then why anyone care what I wear on my sleeves or collars? It costs CAP nothing to allow me to wear NCO rank. I paid for it, and the cost to sew it on. I go to the same schools, do the same job, offer my skill sets, wear the same uniforms, I'm just like everyone else, I just put on a different design. If it means nothing, then no one should have a problem with what I choose to wear as long as I meet or exceed the 39-1.