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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
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Eclipse
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« Reply #80 on: August 10, 2017, 11:02:34 AM »

It's called they needed a new commander and he was the guy who volunteered. Bingo! He's the NCO Commander, or should we call him Superintendent?

No, you should call him "Sir", when he is appointed to an appropriate grade as a CAP Officer,
or you should not call him at all because he is disqualified to serve as a commander based on his NCO status.

Or alternatively you can just ignore a clear tenant of a program which is going to be the "backbone of CAP" (any day now for 10 years),
and leave whatever credibility it might have had at the door for the sake of convenience.

And the fact that CAP would allow members to jump back and forth between NCO and officer on a whim (at all) while still
portending that CAP NCOs would be the backbone of the organization just points to how meaningless the insignia is
and what a waste of time the conversations are.

Providing an avenue to promote?  Fine, whatever.  A real NCO "program" akin to the military and with the weight
of what being an NCO means?

Nope, Never going to happen.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 11:10:25 AM by Eclipse » Logged


Eclipse
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Posts: 28,621

« Reply #81 on: August 10, 2017, 11:19:13 AM »

CAP has a group of Officers within it, that believes that the way to have better relations with the Air Force is to bring the requirements to be a CAP Officer in alignment with the active military requirements for commissioning. If you do this where do you put those members who are contributing to the program but do not have a four year degree, well.... Maybe you turn them into NCO's or airman.

Not saying I embrace this idea or even think it is a well thought out idea, because I don't. But I do know if is one of the reasons that senior CAP Officers have used as a reason to expand the NCO ranks.

And that's the issue, a Group of CAP members who "feels" the org needs NCOs, with zero evidence to back up that assertion, nor any workable
plan that increases mission effectiveness, recruiting, or retention.

I wonder if that phrase ever comes up in meetings any more at "echelons above reality"? "Mission Effectiveness".

I've spent plenty of time looking around the room for help, and one thing that has never come up is "It would all come together
if CAP's grade structure just made more sense..."

What would help relations is members who come to the USAF table and execute their missions Safely, Efficiently, and Effectively
on a consistent basis, and I guarantee you no one in the USAF cares a whit about CAP grade, uniforms, or professional development
beyond being forced to make decisions about it when CAP can't get out of its own way.

They'd be more then happy with a room full of butt-kicking, golf shirt clad members, who can get along for more then
a day without fighting over who gets to make the coffee.
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FW
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Posts: 2,176

« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2017, 12:30:42 PM »

CAP has a group of Officers within it, that believes that the way to have better relations with the Air Force is to bring the requirements to be a CAP Officer in alignment with the active military requirements for commissioning. If you do this where do you put those members who are contributing to the program but do not have a four year degree, well.... Maybe you turn them into NCO's or airman.

Not saying I embrace this idea or even think it is a well thought out idea, because I don't. But I do know if is one of the reasons that senior CAP Officers have used as a reason to expand the NCO ranks.

Larry, if that is the case, we are doomed!  First, the "Air Force" thinks of us just fine.  Second our problems are mostly self made (like starting a program without a need, then leaving it to rot), and finally, leadership is not paying attention to real needs and finding real solutions.  Thanks to a core of dedicated members throughout the country, CAP survives.

Vent over....

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kwe1009
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Posts: 915

« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2017, 09:59:03 PM »

I am an Air Force SNCO and I am very proud of that fact.  I am a CAP officer and I am proud of that as well.  When I joined CAP I chose the officer route because frankly the NCO program was confusing.  The only difference between a CAP officer and NCO was the ability to get saluted and hold command positions.  I did not want to limit myself so I chose the officer route.  I have yet to hear a good argument to even have a CAP NCO program.  The way it is currently implemented certainly is not a selling point for any need.

The fact that the NCO program is limited to current/former military NCOs makes no sense when a person with zero military experience can join CAP and be an officer and thus in charge of that experienced NCO by virtue of their rank.  I know that a new military LT has no experience either but they at least had 4 years of military training in order to be an officer.  It would honestly make more sense to flip it and make the people with no military experience Airman/NCOs and make the military members officers.  In my Wing there are maybe 6 total CAP NCOs and a ton of current/former military NCOs that are CAP officers with zero desire to be a CAP NCO.  For those that want to be an NCO, that is great and I do not have any issue with that. 

Frankly I think we would just be better off if we got rid of grade altogether except for maybe command positions or adopt the cadet model where you start as an Airman and work your way up through the officer ranks.  CAP can't and shouldn't adopt the military model of how the NCO and Officer corps are divided.  It is a totally different animal.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2017, 11:58:09 PM »

[redacted] I know that a new military LT has no experience either but they at least had 4 years of military training in order to be an officer. 

Really? When did the various flavors of OCS go away? These range anywhere from nine (USAF) to seventeen weeks (USCG).
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Dave Bowles
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LSThiker
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« Reply #85 on: August 11, 2017, 12:35:17 AM »

[redacted] I know that a new military LT has no experience either but they at least had 4 years of military training in order to be an officer. 

Really? When did the various flavors of OCS go away? These range anywhere from nine (USAF) to seventeen weeks (USCG).

And do not forget the special AMEDD routes with direct commissioning from O-1 to O-4 based on job skill and experience with the 6 week BOLC short course.
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kwe1009
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« Reply #86 on: August 11, 2017, 08:03:41 AM »

[redacted] I know that a new military LT has no experience either but they at least had 4 years of military training in order to be an officer. 

Really? When did the various flavors of OCS go away? These range anywhere from nine (USAF) to seventeen weeks (USCG).

OK, so I did not cover every single method of military commissioning.  My bad and that really isn't the point of my post.  The vast majority of military officers do have 4 years of military training.  There are  a small percentage that go the OTS/OCS route.  Those that receive a commission via routes other than OTS/Academy/ROTC have specialized skills that the military needs (medical, law, chaplain, etc) and are generally outside of the general military population (you would see an MD be the squadron CC of a SF squadron for instance).

So my original point remains unchanged which is going with the CAP cadet model for promotions (with different promotion requirements/time lines) makes for sense than segregating NCOs and Officers for CAP.

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FW
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Posts: 2,176

« Reply #87 on: August 11, 2017, 08:58:54 AM »

After reading post after post, thread after thread, and listened to varying opinions on this subject, I still have no reason to think Civil Air Patrol would change with an expansion of the NCO program.
There has been no empirical evidence given showing an increase in recruitment or membership retention.   There has been no evidence given showing an increased effectiveness in mission attainment, or strategic, tactical, and immediate goals made.  There hasn't even been evidence showing Vanguard's increased uniform accessory sales. 

I understand those of us who wish to keep some part of their past military life as an NCO into our "military" structure in CAP. It just doesn't make any sense to keep bringing it up.  It should just fade away; like so many other "solutions without problems".  IMHO, we should be dealing with solutions to real problems.  Like tapping into the vast pool of past commanders.... LOL
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SMsgt Jung
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« Reply #88 on: August 11, 2017, 11:02:55 AM »

To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.
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SMsgt, Scott Jung, CAP
FLWG Command NCO
THRAWN
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« Reply #89 on: August 11, 2017, 01:16:45 PM »

To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

What reg is that found in?
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Strup
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dwr2829
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« Reply #90 on: August 11, 2017, 01:42:05 PM »

So work with me here for a moment…Where do Civil Air Patrol Officers earn their commission? Wait…they don’t. They are appointed after completing requirements that we all know. With that said, you could say they are Non Commissioned Officers if you accept that certain point of view. So guess what, we’re all NCO’s! Case closed, next topic…. >:D
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #91 on: August 11, 2017, 05:38:46 PM »

To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

CAP NCOs are not supposed to be commanders, according to regulations.

As an earliier posted noted, the NCO program has been in formation for many years. There are instances where sitting squadron commanders who are CAP NCOs have been permitted to complete their terms of office.

I believe, going forward, National will reject appointment of an NCO as commander unless there is an officer promotion involved.

Does this make sense, or even matter?  Darned if I know!

As to members flipping back and forth between officer and NCO ranks, that has, actually been the practice more often than most people realize, particularly during the height of WW 1 and 2 (when experienced NCOs were often given reserve or war time commissions). As the forces drew down after the war, it was not uncommon for both officers and NCOs to return to their permanent rank.

Of all the ideas offered here, I think the one that makes the most sense is mirroring the cadet program, so that new members lacking significant military or other related experience start out as airmen and work their way up.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 307

« Reply #92 on: August 11, 2017, 06:21:31 PM »

I'd rather see a one year probation/initiation period, at which time the SMWOG would pick a track: NCO or Officer, with personnel authorizations and CC input also being considered. Each track would then be a 3-6 month PD program, and then appropriate grade would be awarded, SSgt or 2nd Lt.

But part of the appeal for a lot of members is shiny pins in 6 months or less. It's not an ideal motivation but at this point CAP can't be choosy.
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PHall
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Posts: 6,103

« Reply #93 on: August 11, 2017, 08:31:08 PM »

To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

What reg is that found in?

You can not discipline someone for violating regulations that do not exist. So provide the reg you cited when you called National.
And who did you contact at National? The IG to file a complaint or Suzie Parker, who has no "official" authority...
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,861

« Reply #94 on: August 12, 2017, 10:25:18 AM »

To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

CAP NCOs are not supposed to be commanders, according to regulations.

As an earliier posted noted, the NCO program has been in formation for many years. There are instances where sitting squadron commanders who are CAP NCOs have been permitted to complete their terms of office.

I believe, going forward, National will reject appointment of an NCO as commander unless there is an officer promotion involved.

Does this make sense, or even matter?  Darned if I know!

As to members flipping back and forth between officer and NCO ranks, that has, actually been the practice more often than most people realize, particularly during the height of WW 1 and 2 (when experienced NCOs were often given reserve or war time commissions). As the forces drew down after the war, it was not uncommon for both officers and NCOs to return to their permanent rank.

Of all the ideas offered here, I think the one that makes the most sense is mirroring the cadet program, so that new members lacking significant military or other related experience start out as airmen and work their way up.

Second time I am asking and to the second person: what reg forbids This? I have a feeling that I am going to keep asking and not get an answer. Usually in cases like this where someone keeps banging the "regulations forbid" drum they are usually full of swamp water.
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Strup
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,861

« Reply #95 on: August 12, 2017, 10:26:46 AM »

To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

What reg is that found in?

You can not discipline someone for violating regulations that do not exist. So provide the reg you cited when you called National.
And who did you contact at National? The IG to file a complaint or Suzie Parker, who has no "official" authority...

You replied to the wrong person. I think that this contact with National should start "once upon a time...."
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Strup
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PHall
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Posts: 6,103

« Reply #96 on: August 12, 2017, 07:51:09 PM »

To those who say that CAP NCO's can not be a Squadron Commander, you are mistaken.
The current commander of the Big Bear Composite Squadron 6750, California Wing, CAP is a CMSgt.
National Headquarters approved the Form 27 when he assumed command over six months ago.

I have contacted national about this, the regs clearly state that only job an NCO can't hold is command, all other positions can be filled by an NCO. Even the leader of a flight until an officer is found to take command of it.

What reg is that found in?

You can not discipline someone for violating regulations that do not exist. So provide the reg you cited when you called National.
And who did you contact at National? The IG to file a complaint or Suzie Parker, who has no "official" authority...

You replied to the wrong person. I think that this contact with National should start "once upon a time...."

More like "A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..."
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #97 on: August 12, 2017, 08:39:19 PM »

Second time I am asking and to the second person: what reg forbids This? I have a feeling that I am going to keep asking and not get an answer. Usually in cases like this where someone keeps banging the "regulations forbid" drum they are usually full of swamp water.

I remember reading it somewhere that NCOs could be be commanders (actually makes a lot of sense) but I can't find it now.  In my mind, if you want to be a commander then you should be an officer.  That is how it works in the military.

CAPR 35-5 6.4 states that "NCOs accepting commander appointments will be eligible to transition to the officer grade commensurate with the commander position... Upon completion of the command assignment, the member MAY return to their previous NCO status upon request..." 

So 35-5 does not say an NCO must become an officer to accept a command position, only that the can.  If an NCO is selected as a Wing or Region CC they will be promoted to the temporary grade of Colonel per 3.2.1 and 3.2.2.  For Group and Squadron command (3.2.3 and 3.2.4) the advanced grade is a "MAY" not a requirement.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,861

« Reply #98 on: August 12, 2017, 08:54:48 PM »

Second time I am asking and to the second person: what reg forbids This? I have a feeling that I am going to keep asking and not get an answer. Usually in cases like this where someone keeps banging the "regulations forbid" drum they are usually full of swamp water.

I remember reading it somewhere that NCOs could be be commanders (actually makes a lot of sense) but I can't find it now.  In my mind, if you want to be a commander then you should be an officer.  That is how it works in the military.

CAPR 35-5 6.4 states that "NCOs accepting commander appointments will be eligible to transition to the officer grade commensurate with the commander position... Upon completion of the command assignment, the member MAY return to their previous NCO status upon request..." 

So 35-5 does not say an NCO must become an officer to accept a command position, only that the can.  If an NCO is selected as a Wing or Region CC they will be promoted to the temporary grade of Colonel per 3.2.1 and 3.2.2.  For Group and Squadron command (3.2.3 and 3.2.4) the advanced grade is a "MAY" not a requirement.

There are many circumstances where an NCO can be a commander in the RM. But in response to my question, "regulations" have no prohibition against the practice. And Nero fiddles....
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Strup
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winterg
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« Reply #99 on: August 12, 2017, 09:08:11 PM »

The original NCO Corps Implementation Plan dated Oct 17, 2013, section 4.3 stated:
"Duty Positions: NCO's will be eligible to hold any position within CAP, including pilot, except those normally reserved for officers (e.g. Unit Commanders) and will be assigned at any CAP organizational level; Squadron, Group, Wing, Region or National Headquarters. Where possible, assignments will be rank appropriate and consider the member's professional development training, professional military skills and professional and personal goals. CAP Senior NCO's (MSgt, SMSgt, and CMsgt) may be in charge of a unit designated as a flight (if there are no other officers assigned); however, NCO's will not be authorized to command a Squadron, Group, Wing, or Region."

The CAP News release dated Oct 23, 2013 says the same thing:
"In addition, NCOs will be eligible for any CAP position, including pilots, at all organizational levels – squadron, group, wing, region or national – except for those reserved for officers, such as unit commander."

While there is no current regulatory guidance about a CAP NCO unable to be assigned as a unit CC, there was a Draft Input to CAPR 20-1 released to current CAP NCO's earlier this year that uses the exact wording above from the original Implementation Plan.  This draft also includes the suggested wording for the duties of the Staff NCO's at each echelon.  So if we ever see the release of the updated 20-1 that includes the NCO information we will have the answer to this question.  Until then, we are making due with what we have.
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