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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??
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Author Topic: NCO selling points and benefits??  (Read 16075 times)
kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 99
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« on: January 08, 2017, 10:00:15 PM »

I recently found out that my group has some former military NCO/SNCOs. What are some good selling points and benefits to switching to having stripes? As a non-military officer, I can't see the trees through the forest enough to properly describe it.

Thanks!
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Group VI Commander
bd5av8r
Recruit

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« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2017, 11:11:55 PM »

The "NCO" program is basically for members who wish to wear their stripes earned while on active duty in the armed forces. The NCO program provides a way for CAP to promote them to higher grade should they choose to wear stripes versus officer rank.

Previously to the NCO program a member could wear stripes, but CAP had no method to promote them.

Major Williams
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Greetings from SC!
FW
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« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2017, 11:25:11 PM »

This is where the "Search" function is a very valuable tool......
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kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 99
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2017, 12:02:41 AM »

Maj Williams- that's what I was sort of thinking as well.Thanks!



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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Group VI Commander
Ozzy
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Posts: 320
Unit: NY

NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2017, 01:32:44 AM »

The "NCO" program is basically for members who wish to wear their stripes earned while on active duty in the armed forces. The NCO program provides a way for CAP to promote them to higher grade should they choose to wear stripes versus officer rank.

Previously to the NCO program a member could wear stripes, but CAP had no method to promote them.

Major Williams

Slight correction, it's for members that have been promoted to at least E-4 and that have served in any component of the armed forces, not just active duty.
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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
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THRAWN
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« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 10:56:27 AM »

Here's four pages of info to start with: http://captalk.net/index.php?action=search2

EDIT 1217EST: DOH! It didn't do what I wanted. Enter NCO into the search box and you'll get a lot of material to review.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 01:18:00 PM by THRAWN » Logged
Strup
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kcebnaes
Member

Posts: 99
Unit: GLR-OH-064

« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 12:48:43 PM »

Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?
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Maj Sean Beck
Ohio Wing
Group VI Commander
kwe1009
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« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 01:06:40 PM »

Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?

I am not a CAP NCO but I am a USAF SNCO.  The only real difference between being a CAP NCO or officer that I can find is that an NCO can't hold a command position.

Yes the new CAP NCO program allows for promotions but only to a certain degree.  Per CAPR 39-3 there is only 1 MSgt position authorized per squadron so if you have 2 TSgts you can only promote the one filling the "Squadron NCO" position and they have to be in that position for 2 years to permanently keep that rank.  Only 1 SMSgt slot per Group/Wing/Region and only 1 CMSgt position per Wing/Region.  This does not leave a lot of room for promotions.  With the tenure requirements for the SNCO grades, a Wing will only be able to promote someone to CMSgt every 4 years for example.

Hopefully the officer side will follow suit and start limiting promotions as well.  As of right now the PD is the same for officers and NCOs but I believe that is supposed to change in the coming years.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 01:15:53 PM »

Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?

I am not a CAP NCO but I am a USAF SNCO.  The only real difference between being a CAP NCO or officer that I can find is that an NCO can't hold a command position.

Yes the new CAP NCO program allows for promotions but only to a certain degree.  Per CAPR 39-3 there is only 1 MSgt position authorized per squadron so if you have 2 TSgts you can only promote the one filling the "Squadron NCO" position and they have to be in that position for 2 years to permanently keep that rank.  Only 1 SMSgt slot per Group/Wing/Region and only 1 CMSgt position per Wing/Region.  This does not leave a lot of room for promotions.  With the tenure requirements for the SNCO grades, a Wing will only be able to promote someone to CMSgt every 4 years for example.

Hopefully the officer side will follow suit and start limiting promotions as well.  As of right now the PD is the same for officers and NCOs but I believe that is supposed to change in the coming years.

Good info, but I'm not sure it answers the OP actual question: why would someone choose to be a CPA NCO versus a CAP officer? What are the opportunities for a NCO to develop professionally and help in the development of their unit? What are the benefits to being a CAP NCO?

Without going too far indepth, there doesn't seem to be a lot of training opportunities that are NCO specific, the AU PME courses would be closed to those members and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the PD required, so what is the real motivation to be an NCO? (I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems like the OP's request for info isn't being addressed).
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Strup
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kwe1009
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« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2017, 01:41:52 PM »

Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?

I am not a CAP NCO but I am a USAF SNCO.  The only real difference between being a CAP NCO or officer that I can find is that an NCO can't hold a command position.

Yes the new CAP NCO program allows for promotions but only to a certain degree.  Per CAPR 39-3 there is only 1 MSgt position authorized per squadron so if you have 2 TSgts you can only promote the one filling the "Squadron NCO" position and they have to be in that position for 2 years to permanently keep that rank.  Only 1 SMSgt slot per Group/Wing/Region and only 1 CMSgt position per Wing/Region.  This does not leave a lot of room for promotions.  With the tenure requirements for the SNCO grades, a Wing will only be able to promote someone to CMSgt every 4 years for example.

Hopefully the officer side will follow suit and start limiting promotions as well.  As of right now the PD is the same for officers and NCOs but I believe that is supposed to change in the coming years.

Good info, but I'm not sure it answers the OP actual question: why would someone choose to be a CPA NCO versus a CAP officer? What are the opportunities for a NCO to develop professionally and help in the development of their unit? What are the benefits to being a CAP NCO?

Without going too far indepth, there doesn't seem to be a lot of training opportunities that are NCO specific, the AU PME courses would be closed to those members and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the PD required, so what is the real motivation to be an NCO? (I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems like the OP's request for info isn't being addressed).

I agree.  A lot of people are asking that same questions, including me, and I haven't seen any good answers other than "you get to keep your stripes" which isn't much of a selling point to me.
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Ozzy
Seasoned Member

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NY-288 Squadron Website
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2017, 02:12:43 PM »



Good info, but I'm not sure it answers the OP actual question: why would someone choose to be a CPA NCO versus a CAP officer? What are the opportunities for a NCO to develop professionally and help in the development of their unit? What are the benefits to being a CAP NCO?

Without going too far indepth, there doesn't seem to be a lot of training opportunities that are NCO specific, the AU PME courses would be closed to those members and there doesn't seem to be much difference in the PD required, so what is the real motivation to be an NCO? (I know this has been discussed before, but it just seems like the OP's request for info isn't being addressed).

Short answer: As CAP NCO, I would say it gives me another tool in my box to engage cadets with and help them develop as a leader, especially when it comes to developing the different skills of an NCO vs an officer. Cadets may choose to listen to a senior member NCO more then a Major since they have seen a thousand majors in CAP vs one sergeant.

Longer answer: Wait until I get home to type it up on a computer vs a tablet.

As for PME, yes, it is limited by the Air Force. Perhaps eventually CAP can request access to the NCO-equivalent courses once the CAP NCO program becomes more established.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

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Ozyilmaz, TSgt, CAP
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2017, 02:13:34 PM »

After talking to the RMR Chief, you are correct in  that there is not any real difference- at this point.  It is, (and has been for quite some time) in development.
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<redacted>

GRW 3340
County
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« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2017, 02:17:18 PM »

Please allow my answer as to why I submitted the Cap Form to switch from CAP Officer to CAP NCO.

1. As I currently don't have a bachelors degree, nor plan on attaining one, I am ineligible to attend the SOS and Air War College. Looking into the future CAP NCO's might have the option to take the non Resident PME courses for AF SNCO's (I'm speculating but believe this will happen).

2. People do react differently to stripes, whether you believe it or not. I've experienced it. Yes, even in our volunteer capacity.

3. I do not wish to assume a Command billet. Though I have the option to if I ever changed my mind.  This lets people know you are here strictly to keep the machine running, not run the machine.

4. I wish to be on the ground floor of this new program. I also wish to provide my feedback which will help make the CAP NCO program something of worth.

Drawbacks, yes there's a few

1. The ranks are more expensive.

2. People always feel the need to voice their opinion to you about it, as if there way is the only way.
          a. My personal favorite, "Why do you want to be a CAP NCO? Ranks don't matter in CAP anyway!"      Then why are you even talking to me about it.


Just my two cents. Best of luck.
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TSgt
Bayareaflyer 44
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« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2017, 05:59:58 PM »

I asked a TSgt in our Group that very same question. Hes a high-speed guy, that does ES as well as CP at both the Sq and Group level.  I truly felt his response was the best Ive heard.

He said something to the effect of I want to show our cadets that not every one of the USAF/CAP team is going to be a jet jockey/pilot.  There are other options and plenty of excellent jobs that need to be filled with capable individuals that follow the NCO route. 

Solid.
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Earhart #2546
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2017, 06:39:49 PM »

I want to show our cadets that not every one of the USAF/CAP team is going to be a jet jockey/pilot.  There are other options and plenty of excellent jobs that need to be filled with capable individuals that follow the NCO route. 

Solid.


I wish our cadet program gave cadets a look at that difference!
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THRAWN
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Posts: 1,809

« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2017, 07:00:52 PM »

I asked a TSgt in our Group that very same question. Hes a high-speed guy, that does ES as well as CP at both the Sq and Group level.  I truly felt his response was the best Ive heard.

He said something to the effect of I want to show our cadets that not every one of the USAF/CAP team is going to be a jet jockey/pilot.  There are other options and plenty of excellent jobs that need to be filled with capable individuals that follow the NCO route. 

Solid.

In the past 75 years not sure that this has been an issue.
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Strup
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lordmonar
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« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2017, 11:41:47 PM »

Hmmm, let me re-word my question: Why pick being an NCO over going the officer route? Current NCOs: why did you choose to keep your stripes?
I was a CAP Major when I switched over to CAP MSgt.
I'll be honest....one of the major reasons for the switch was just to be different.  (I switched over before the CAP NCO program was expanded).  But the other reason was that I was more comfortable lead my CAP brethren as an NCO instead of an officer.  It what I was trained for in the USAF.
 
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
SWChief
Recruit

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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2017, 06:42:42 PM »

I am a retired Chief Petty Officer.  20 Years Navy Seabees.
I am currently awaiting the approval to go from SM to MSGT.
My reason,  Pretty simple actually,  I worked hard to achieve my anchors and won't give them up easily,  I don't want command.  As a CPO in the navy my job is to train junior troops to give them their full potential and to train junior officers.  I feel I can make a better impact on the organization doing what I do best and was trained to do.
And honestly, no offense to anyone, CAP has WAY too many officers.
It seems that just about anyone can join, do 6 months and be 2nd Louie,  But not anyone can be Non-Com.
I really enjoy the organization and so do my two sons(cadets), (they are kinda what got me into it).
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Eclipse
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2017, 07:02:06 PM »

My reason,  Pretty simple actually,  I worked hard to achieve my anchors and won't give them up easily,  I don't want command.  As a CPO in the navy my job is to train junior troops to give them their full potential and to train junior officers.  I feel I can make a better impact on the organization doing what I do best and was trained to do.

How, exactly, do you believe that will work?

There are neither "junior troops" nor "junior officers" per se, in CAP when you consider that pilots routinely come in
with no military experience and railroad tracks, or are appointed as Unit CCs before their BCGs are done.

What specific abilities will you bring to "training" a Finance Officer in a golf shirt? (Etc.)

This is an honest question many have been asking for a decade+ on this and other forums and
no one has ever provided a real answer that works in a CAP context.

The "too many officers" discussion is already beginning to slowly work itself out with the new expectations
for promotion about Capt, which will suppress the majority of the grades to company level. 

No issue with you retaining your other-service grade, but there's no NCO "program" in CAP.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2017, 07:05:23 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SWChief
Recruit

Posts: 6
Unit: GLR-OH-156

« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2017, 08:14:09 PM »

Eclipse,

How will it work? well, great question.  Junior troops = new cadets, Yes the cadets pretty much take care of that but it doesn't hurt to have someone with military experience.  Junior officers = that brand new 2nd LT that never been in the military.
CAP is essentially a private organization that tries to be military.  If they wanna be military then I am going to make sure that the Military Bearing is in place and kept.
I am not much of a linguist and don't usually put my thoughts into words very well.

I am here for the cadets mostly, I just feel that I can help with their upbringing to be the fine young folks that they can be, and help them into the transition to the real world.  They are our future, I want to see them succeed.

As far as the person in the "Golf Shirt", well, if they want to do it right then I can help them.  If they don't, and CAP doesn't care, probably not much I can do. 
Keep in mind here I am in a Cadet Squadron, So my focus is there.

As far as an NCO program...Well, I still have to pick a specialty track and complete the requirements due to the fact I hold those positions within the Squadron.  I am not trying to be the Next CMSGT of CAP.  Just trying to help out where I can.  In the end, does it matter whats on my sleeve or shoulder?

Also, not trying to stir any pots here folks.  Just my thoughts on the question at hand. :)
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