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sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 898

« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2016, 08:11:57 PM »

I have put it out before but appropriate to the conversation
Emergency Care and Safety Institute (Jones and Bartlett..the publisher that sells the books)
No cost to establish an Education Center (there are actually a number of CAP units and wings that are listed)
instructors can be grandfathered without taking their instructor course with existing or past credentials, and that grandfathering is usually up to the education center to determine (ie a CAP member who is an EMT/Paramedic/Nurse/Doctor who has taken the CAP instructor course would be appropriate to teach), there is also an instructor trainer course available
You pay for the cost of books per student (they do also have in the past allowed certain organizations to library their books, and just purchase cards)
You must have at least one purchase by someone affiliated with the ed center of the instructor tool kit package for any course you are teaching

Courses that may appropriate to CAP:
CPR
Proffessional Rescuer CPR
Basic First Aid (the instructor tool kit disk is basic first aid and CPR in one) ie $15.95 per book, and the instructor tool kit is $150
Advanced First Aid
Wilderness First Aid (this one actually has 8/16/32 hour content options)
Emergency Medical Responder

Any other cost is what you as an education center choose to charge

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,351

« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2016, 08:28:20 PM »

~snip~

Thanks Mark!
I can use this for CA (a lot, if I find the time to set it up), though not for work.

1st Lt Raduenz
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 08:33:55 PM by SarDragon » Logged
RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2016, 11:26:12 PM »

I have put it out before but appropriate to the conversation
Emergency Care and Safety Institute (Jones and Bartlett..the publisher that sells the books)


While ECSI books, like all textboofs are expensive, used copies of the previous edition are available on the web

Here's the "Advanced First Aid, Cpr and Aed" 6th edition for $1.72

http://www.ecampus.com/advanced-first-aid-cpr-aed-6th-aaos/bk/9781449609467

and there are numerous listings on eBay.
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RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2016, 11:43:50 PM »

Requested topic for the subject matter experts to work on that could be productive and are actually really needed (this is a repeat on my part - no one answered earlier this year):


Problem:
Per CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012, Section 1-24. Legal Issues of CAP Operational Missions, subparagraph f, First Aid and Emergency Medical Care, as excerpted below, the current Ground Team 3 rating requires "Basic First Aid class" (cross reference the GT Manual of May 04, and the GTL Reference Text of April 03, Chapters 4, 15, 20). While in the past, many such courses were of nominal cost, today most course options involve significant expense on the part of local units and may not meet regulatory requirements. Assistance is needed to sort through the mass of available courses, and research and recommend courses which meet regulatory requirements yet are low-overhead impacts for volunteer local units.


The text used in American Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED (the 2-5 hour course ) is available online for free at

http://www.redcross.org/images/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m55540601_FA-CPR-AED-Part-Manual.pdf
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 949
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2016, 12:59:08 AM »

Requested topic for the subject matter experts to work on that could be productive and are actually really needed (this is a repeat on my part - no one answered earlier this year):


Problem:
Per CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012, Section 1-24. Legal Issues of CAP Operational Missions, subparagraph f, First Aid and Emergency Medical Care, as excerpted below, the current Ground Team 3 rating requires "Basic First Aid class" (cross reference the GT Manual of May 04, and the GTL Reference Text of April 03, Chapters 4, 15, 20). While in the past, many such courses were of nominal cost, today most course options involve significant expense on the part of local units and may not meet regulatory requirements. Assistance is needed to sort through the mass of available courses, and research and recommend courses which meet regulatory requirements yet are low-overhead impacts for volunteer local units.


The text used in American Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED (the 2-5 hour course ) is available online for free at

http://www.redcross.org/images/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m55540601_FA-CPR-AED-Part-Manual.pdf


It sounds like the ECSI option is a packaged, stand alone course (as described with the instructor kit).  While the ARC First Aid text might be available, that does not sound like a complete course package. Are you implying that it is, or do you have a follow up to make this a complete option?

I appreciate the provision of a free reference, but we are in need of complete, viable, affordable options.


Thanks, though - keep them coming - next?
Spam


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RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2016, 12:30:01 AM »

Requested topic for the subject matter experts to work on that could be productive and are actually really needed (this is a repeat on my part - no one answered earlier this year):


Problem:
Per CAPR 60-3 26 DECEMBER 2012, Section 1-24. Legal Issues of CAP Operational Missions, subparagraph f, First Aid and Emergency Medical Care, as excerpted below, the current Ground Team 3 rating requires "Basic First Aid class" (cross reference the GT Manual of May 04, and the GTL Reference Text of April 03, Chapters 4, 15, 20). While in the past, many such courses were of nominal cost, today most course options involve significant expense on the part of local units and may not meet regulatory requirements. Assistance is needed to sort through the mass of available courses, and research and recommend courses which meet regulatory requirements yet are low-overhead impacts for volunteer local units.


The text used in American Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED (the 2-5 hour course ) is available online for free at

http://www.redcross.org/images/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m55540601_FA-CPR-AED-Part-Manual.pdf


It sounds like the ECSI option is a packaged, stand alone course (as described with the instructor kit).  While the ARC First Aid text might be available, that does not sound like a complete course package. Are you implying that it is, or do you have a follow up to make this a complete option?

I appreciate the provision of a free reference, but we are in need of complete, viable, affordable options.


Thanks, though - keep them coming - next?
Spam

Because the ARC text is free while the ECSI's is $15 for each copy,

http://www.ecsinstitute.org/courses/detail.aspx/9781284131109

 it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

However, as I've said before I believe neither the ARC or ECSI's basic first aid course provides adequate training.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2016, 12:46:57 AM »

it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

ARC instructors are no different then any others, they cannot provide or certify the training in the way CAP
requires without, at a minimum, paying for materials and registration for each member.  Doing anything else
violates the instructor agreement and the classes are not backed by ARC.

Using "free texts" is not an option for CAP members looking for training that meets the ES requirements.
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"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 898

« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2016, 01:11:21 AM »

... snip...

However, as I've said before I believe neither the ARC or ECSI's basic first aid course provides adequate training.

Dont get me wrong I dont think those courses adequately prepare members for the potential issues that may be encountered in an ES operation, but CAP thinks otherwise; they dont even care if you are certified, they just want trained.   I think getting them a card of some kind from an accredited organization (even if the course is very "basic".) is better than nothing (there also is a hard play to fall back on "training from Dave at the Fire Department"  no matter how well trained or good meaning Dave and the local FD may have been)

I think that everyone that does SAR should be at minimum an EMR.  But thats just opinion and I am enough of a realist to know that is not a thing that is ever going to happen w/o federal mandate or associated funding.  We cant even figure out how to fund a course that is in essence $20 per member, taught by our own people.  What is the adequate level of training for CAP members?

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2016, 09:48:50 AM »

... snip...

However, as I've said before I believe neither the ARC or ECSI's basic first aid course provides adequate training.

Dont get me wrong I dont think those courses adequately prepare members for the potential issues that may be encountered in an ES operation, but CAP thinks otherwise; they dont even care if you are certified, they just want trained.   I think getting them a card of some kind from an accredited organization (even if the course is very "basic".) is better than nothing (there also is a hard play to fall back on "training from Dave at the Fire Department"  no matter how well trained or good meaning Dave and the local FD may have been)

I think that everyone that does SAR should be at minimum an EMR.  But thats just opinion and I am enough of a realist to know that is not a thing that is ever going to happen w/o federal mandate or associated funding.  We cant even figure out how to fund a course that is in essence $20 per member, taught by our own people.  What is the adequate level of training for CAP members?

MK

Your last question is truly the crux of this whole thing and it opens up others. Does CAP wish to remain a potential player within the ES world, or are we just doing it for lip service? I happen to agree that a GTM needs a EMR....at minimum....
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,609

« Reply #49 on: September 26, 2016, 01:05:50 PM »

I do not recommend becoming ARC instructor certified to teach for CAP. Teaching outside of a chapter or company with an authorized provider agreement is almost impossible.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
RogueLeader
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,626
Unit: Of measure

« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2016, 04:36:05 PM »

Your last question is truly the crux of this whole thing and it opens up others. Does CAP wish to remain a potential player within the ES world, or are we just doing it for lip service? I happen to agree that a GTM needs a EMR....at minimum....

I'm just curious as to how many other SAR Groups have EMR as a prerequisite.  For the SAR Groups around here don't ave it as far as I know.
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GRW 3340
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,809

« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2016, 05:35:39 PM »

Your last question is truly the crux of this whole thing and it opens up others. Does CAP wish to remain a potential player within the ES world, or are we just doing it for lip service? I happen to agree that a GTM needs a EMR....at minimum....

I'm just curious as to how many other SAR Groups have EMR as a prerequisite.  For the SAR Groups around here don't ave it as far as I know.

I'd have to say more of them than fewer of them. Keep in mind, this is akin to the old "first responder" designator which was less than an EMT but more than the guy that got his first aid card from his job. It's probably required at a minimum. There are around 700 SAR/ES/EMS outfits in NJ alone. I'm sure it varies by state.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 949
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2016, 06:22:27 PM »

it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

ARC instructors are no different then any others, they cannot provide or certify the training in the way CAP
requires without, at a minimum, paying for materials and registration for each member.  Doing anything else
violates the instructor agreement and the classes are not backed by ARC.

Using "free texts" is not an option for CAP members looking for training that meets the ES requirements.


Eclipse, I think you've stated that more concisely than I did above - we're looking for a complete training package (which might consist of an online course, PLUS a hands on element, or an entirely in person course, which meets the listed content requirements.

Folks, we may all have a hundred different options of "What If"/"What Should Be", all of which should be the topic of a new Health Services (or whatever) thread and debate.  For this topic, though, I was looking for "What Meets The Current Requirement".  So far, we have a couple of good options - any more?


Thanks
Spam


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RNOfficer
Seasoned Member

Posts: 232

« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2016, 12:31:07 AM »

it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

ARC instructors are no different then any others, they cannot provide or certify the training in the way CAP
requires without, at a minimum, paying for materials and registration for each member.  Doing anything else
violates the instructor agreement and the classes are not backed by ARC.

Using "free texts" is not an option for CAP members looking for training that meets the ES requirements.

Please provide evidence for your assertions.
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Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,609

« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2016, 10:25:50 AM »

it might be financially prudent to pay for a unit member to get ARC training as an instructor and use their free text.

ARC instructors are no different then any others, they cannot provide or certify the training in the way CAP
requires without, at a minimum, paying for materials and registration for each member.  Doing anything else
violates the instructor agreement and the classes are not backed by ARC.

Using "free texts" is not an option for CAP members looking for training that meets the ES requirements.

Please provide evidence for your assertions.

Which part? Eclipse is 100% accurate on the ARC part - in order to submit a course report and certify people, the instructor has to name each individual passing and then has to supply a credit card number to pay the fee charged by ARC for each person. Source: I was an ARC instructor until I lapsed.
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The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,351

« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2016, 10:48:26 AM »

Okay, we all wandered a lot, so maybe I missed this, but-

We are only required to Complete Basic First Aid Training.

While it would be nice to have a card stating the same, we only have to provide our members with competent, effective first aid training - yes?

Technically, then, we can just hold the class as someone who has completed the training before (much like instructors are chosen for conferences or anything else) despite not having a teaching certificate.

I get that a card is best for many reasons, but at the level we are allowed to perform, many underfunded squadrons would do well to research their home state Good Samaritan law (Ohio- no pay or expectation of pay) and do the training with "Dave at the FD/VFD" or "Brian at the EMS company" especially if Dave or Brian is in CAP and understands what needs taught.


If you want to argue course specifics, you are addressing Spam.

I believe RN was asking why "free" is unacceptable for CAP- where does is say we need a card? (And to address what I saw on the SQTR just now, every single task asks for a certificate number, even though not all of them have one- so that's not relevant to me)

1st Lt Raduenz
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 02:29:24 PM by SarDragon » Logged
GrandMoffClark
Newbie

Posts: 2

« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2016, 11:01:19 AM »

If that's the case that you don't need a card, why not just spend the $4.99 for the Boy Scout First Aid Merit Badge pamphlet and teach that?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 02:30:00 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,996

« Reply #57 on: September 29, 2016, 11:07:20 AM »

Because the above is not the case. 

There is a very specific standard of training that must be met, certified by an outside, non-CAP body, that is
unambiguous in the regulations.

There is no way for a member to self-certify meeting the standard without the backing of the instructor
credentials of a training company, and those companies do not provide the certification unless you pay their fees.

Like it or not, just as with pilot training, CAP does not want to self-certify for First Aid, they want disinterested
3rd parties (presumably with their own deep pockets) to provide that training, again, presumably,  that way if
you put a tourniquet around someone's neck and say "that's what I was taught", there's someone else on the hook.

There's no other conclusion to come to on this if you actually read the CAP regs, the OSHA standard, and other related
docs, not to mention any number of us have had these direct conversations with the Ops directorate over and over and over and over.
(yeah, appeals to a higher authority).

Until the mandate, standard, and regulations are changed, that is the state of CAP as of today, it hasn't changed for
over a decade, and isn't going to change anytime soon.

Also, consider this, which is nontrivial...

When you see the levels of corners that many members, even CCs will cut for "field expediency", do you really
want people internally saying "yeah, he's good" about First Aid training?  At least a 3rd party has no vested interest
in the student passing "because he needs a GTL next week for the eval" (etc.).
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 02:30:16 PM by SarDragon » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Mordecai
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,078
Unit: SI

« Reply #58 on: September 29, 2016, 01:32:34 PM »

Okay, we all wandered a lot, so maybe I missed this, but-

We are only required to Complete Basic First Aid Training.

While it would be nice to have a card stating the same, we only have to provide our members with competent, effective first aid training - yes?

Technically, then, we can just hold the class as someone who has completed the training before (much like instructors are chosen for conferences or anything else) despite not having a teaching certificate.


Nope.

CAPR 60-3:

Quote
When first aid or higher medical
training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the
qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken
on-line only are not acceptable; though members are not considered employees when supporting
operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational
Settings available at http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf or ASTM F 2171-
02(2009), Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational
Settings

You will find that both documents include language like:

Quote
First Aid Program Development
The ultimate liability for standardized instructional programs rests with the producer.23 An
organization promoting a standardized instructional system designed and tested by a
professional body, drawing on the talent and experience of recognized experts in the field and
outside consultants should be willing and able to easily identify and document not only their
source for appropriate medical treatment guidelines, but also be readily capable of producing
reasonably acceptable criteria for:
Course curriculum and lesson format.
Successful completion of the course by learners.
Instructor certification measures, including revocation procedures with due process.
Administration and course record management.
Ongoing quality assurance.
Medical oversight is paramount in ensuring the highest quality out-of-hospital care. Program
developers should work with medical professionals to review first aid training program curriculum
in order to achieve a sound method of continuous quality improvement.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 02:31:35 PM by SarDragon » Logged
DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,351

« Reply #59 on: September 29, 2016, 01:56:07 PM »

Starfleet- fair enough.

Currently juggling 3 jobs for 4 employers as I transition to new FT work, haven't been able to look at those manuals- thank you.

So it does cost money. Question answered. Now, back to Spam's "best and cheapest option" discussion.

1st Lt Raduenz
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 02:32:04 PM by SarDragon » Logged
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Health information
 


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