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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: The "bowling team"
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Author Topic: The "bowling team"  (Read 3285 times)
sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 898

« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2016, 01:24:23 PM »

Quote
.....and as mentioned before get the benefit of participating fully without having to pay.

That would not be the case for every wing, quite a few I have been at require everyone to pay to cover the costs of shirts, food and rooms.  In your local that may be the case, but I wouldnt paint things with so wide of a brush as a universal "proving point".

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2016, 02:02:00 PM »

I never said or insinuated this was universal.
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Ned
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Posts: 2,116

« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2016, 04:40:31 PM »

When I get a vote, I generally require all seniors to pay for at least the food they consume and any billeting costs.  Personally, I cannot accept cadets subsidizing my room and board when it should be the other way around.

YMMV.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2016, 04:56:28 PM »

Agreed.
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Lt. Blues
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« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2016, 10:53:54 AM »

Students
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 08:07:11 PM by Lt. Blues » Logged
C/1stLt. Blues, CAP         
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« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2016, 11:35:20 AM »

Sadly for the basics' sake,

The proper term is "students".

It is most likely going to become a new trend at NH/VT. Lol

Let's hope not, ad if you have influence as a leader and cadet officer in your wing, perhaps you can
dispel this improper practice.
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Майор Хаткевич
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Posts: 6,075
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2016, 02:20:06 PM »

So I just got back from Encampment (NH/VT), and was fortunate enough not to obliviously join the bowling team (which may sound fun for the unsuspecting, whereas in reality you are marched off to the latrines to clean the bowls.)  Do other encampments pull this trick on basics, asking them to join the bowling competition against the other flights, only to make them clean the latrines? Lol.

Sadly for the basics' sake, I was the one to suggest that to the squadron commanders. The 1stSgts my basic year (last year, Mangan and Quinlan) decided to do that to us. The SqdnComs liked the idea, and told the flight staff to promote it. It is most likely going to become a new trend at NH/VT. Lol


What Eclipse said. Until that is, units begin to have retention issues, because inadvertently, some cadets will quit CAP over this stupid behaviour, and end up scaring other cadets in their unit from even applying to the event, because they would have heard the story. On the other hand, those that DO go, will know the "joke", and not fall for it.


Where the the Seniors when stupidity reigns?
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PA Guy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 709

« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2016, 06:04:40 PM »

So I just got back from Encampment (NH/VT), and was fortunate enough not to obliviously join the bowling team (which may sound fun for the unsuspecting, whereas in reality you are marched off to the latrines to clean the bowls.)  Do other encampments pull this trick on basics, asking them to join the bowling competition against the other flights, only to make them clean the latrines? Lol.

Sadly for the basics' sake, I was the one to suggest that to the squadron commanders. The 1stSgts my basic year (last year, Mangan and Quinlan) decided to do that to us. The SqdnComs liked the idea, and told the flight staff to promote it. It is most likely going to become a new trend at NH/VT. Lol

As they say in the South, [darn] brother I don't believe I would have told that. It is a stupid silly practice that demonstrates a lack of leadership on the cadre's part and a complete lack of leadership on the part of the senior leadership. By the way, have you ever read CAPP 52- 24? If not you need to take the time to read it. It is The Word when it comes to CAP encampments. Not silly war stories about the good ole days. Students (basics) are not there for your amusement.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 06:12:22 PM by PA Guy » Logged
Lt. Blues
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« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2016, 08:10:40 PM »

Sadly for the basics' sake,

The proper term is "students".

It is most likely going to become a new trend at NH/VT. Lol

Let's hope not, ad if you have influence as a leader and cadet officer in your wing, perhaps you can
dispel this improper practice.

Yeah. I'll be sure to go against it next encampment. Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2016, 08:28:54 PM by Lt. Blues » Logged
C/1stLt. Blues, CAP         
Lt. Blues
Recruit

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Unit: NER-CT-000

My Website
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2016, 08:16:05 PM »

So I just got back from Encampment (NH/VT), and was fortunate enough not to obliviously join the bowling team (which may sound fun for the unsuspecting, whereas in reality you are marched off to the latrines to clean the bowls.)  Do other encampments pull this trick on basics, asking them to join the bowling competition against the other flights, only to make them clean the latrines? Lol.

Sadly for the basics' sake, I was the one to suggest that to the squadron commanders. The 1stSgts my basic year (last year, Mangan and Quinlan) decided to do that to us. The SqdnComs liked the idea, and told the flight staff to promote it. It is most likely going to become a new trend at NH/VT. Lol

As they say in the South, [darn] brother I don't believe I would have told that. It is a stupid silly practice that demonstrates a lack of leadership on the cadre's part and a complete lack of leadership on the part of the senior leadership. By the way, have you ever read CAPP 52- 24? If not you need to take the time to read it. It is The Word when it comes to CAP encampments. Not silly war stories about the good ole days. Students (basics) are not there for your amusement.

Yes, I realize that. I apologize for my post earlier. It was unacceptable. I will be sure to stand against this next encampment. Thank you.
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C/1stLt. Blues, CAP         
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« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2016, 08:22:48 PM »

Yes, I realize that. I apologize for my post earlier. It was unacceptable. I will be sure to stand against this next encampment. Thank you.

Just to be clear, there was nothing wrong with your post, per se, and as a Cadet, you are learning.  Making mistakes
is not only part of the deal, it's expected.

In the specific case, if the environment is not properly supervised, or the expectations for behavior aren't
properly set by the adults, then your actions in that light are understandable,

It's how you react, and potentially try to impact change once you find out something was outside the line
that defines you as a leader and an officer, not making a mistake.
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Lt. Blues
Recruit

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Unit: NER-CT-000

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« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2016, 08:27:31 PM »

Yes, I realize that. I apologize for my post earlier. It was unacceptable. I will be sure to stand against this next encampment. Thank you.

Just to be clear, there was nothing wrong with your post, per se, and as a Cadet, you are learning.  Making mistakes
is not only part of the deal, it's expected.

In the specific case, if the environment is not properly supervised, or the expectations for behavior aren't
properly set by the adults, then your actions in that light are understandable,

It's how you react, and potentially try to impact change once you find out something was outside the line
that defines you as a leader and an officer, not making a mistake.

Thank you, I just feel really bad about posting that earlier. Thank you, though.
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C/1stLt. Blues, CAP         
Spam
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« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2016, 08:34:20 PM »

A question for you, LT - will you change your behavior because of your own subjective feelings, because some anonymous guys on here said to, or... because that is the program as written down in our CAP cadet protection policy and encampment handbook? I'd like to suggest that you start breaking with "going by hearsay and tradition", and by reading the manual and referring to it.


So, here's a friendly suggestion, everyone: lets begin by not calling first time attendees "basics".
You cannot attend encampment without at least a Curry Award (C/AMN), so this is NOT basic training.
From the obsolete mind set that these are "basics", there's always some carry over feeling that some of the romanticized Hollywood horse dung of (old, obsolete, draftee-era) boot camps should apply, with these sorts of abuses.


Note also the rejection of the term "staff" vice "cadre" in the handbook which specifically rejects the implication that staff are there to provide sheer labor alone:  "The term staff was rejected because it brings no suggestion of honor and leadership; a staff could be a mere collection of employees performing basic labor".


Then, recommend we follow the current approved program and treat them as volunteer adolescent trainees and students. From the approved terms and definitions should come the mindset, and thence the correct treatment. If you care enough to read it, the manual answers the questions on who should be cleaning and why (below).


Good luck.


V/R
Spam

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Encampment_Manual__Reduced_AB957B4D750D4.pdf
Reference: CAPP 52-24 (CAP Encampment Handbook) of 2014, p.3, Para. g:

"Students: Students are “in ranks” cadets. Because their primary responsibility is to learn, they shall be called “students.”

"STUDENTS & CADRE
Two terms that signal encampment is a leadership laboratory

Why has the CAP encampment program adopted student and cadre as standard terms?

Student is a common term in the Air Force, from Air War College down to Airman Leadership School. Student underscores the
belief that leadership is an academic discipline requiring study, in contrast to the misconception of leadership as a knee-jerk reaction.
Trainee was rejected because encampment is an educational effort affecting the whole person, instead of merely relating procedures
for doing a job. First time cadets attend encampment to learn, so students is an appropriate term to signify that role.

Cadre holds military connotations, suggesting not a mere staff but a faculty of honor charged with indoctrinating newcomers.
Its roots go back to old Europoean [sic] armies, where officers would stand-up a unit before its mass of inexperienced troops arrived.
In encampments, cadre is appropriate because these are the experienced cadets who, months before the first official assembly,
plan and organize the program. The term staff was rejected because it brings no suggestion of honor and leadership; a staff
could be a mere collection of employees performing basic labor.

The terms students and cadre do not diminish the cadets’ status as young people learning and leading in a military-style environment.
If anything, these terms add a seriousness of purpose to their important work and illustrate cadet life’s military heritage".

Section 2.10:
"a. Clean-Up. Before being released for the journey home, of course everyone must contribute to the
clean-up effort." [Spam notes, the word "everyone" here]. and "The senior staff should try to have the cadets fulfill all dormitory clean-up duties and close-out obligations prior to graduation".

Section 6.2:
"f. Learning vs. Maintenance. While cadets will need to clean their dormitory and perform simple upkeep, the inspection program is not intended as an exercise in the janitorial and sanitary arts. Again, the goal is to teach teamwork, not to make the floor clean enough to eat from" [Spam notes: this implies that each cadet will perform cleaning tasks in order to learn something, rather than to delegate to one GI party].

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Lt. Blues
Recruit

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Unit: NER-CT-000

My Website
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2016, 08:40:18 PM »

A question for you, LT - will you change your behavior because of your own subjective feelings, because some anonymous guys on here said to, or... because that is the program as written down in our CAP cadet protection policy and encampment handbook? I'd like to suggest that you start breaking with "going by hearsay and tradition", and by reading the manual and referring to it.


So, here's a friendly suggestion, everyone: lets begin by not calling first time attendees "basics".
You cannot attend encampment without at least a Curry Award (C/AMN), so this is NOT basic training.
From the obsolete mind set that these are "basics", there's always some carry over feeling that some of the romanticized Hollywood horse dung of (old, obsolete, draftee-era) boot camps should apply, with these sorts of abuses.





Note also the rejection of the term "staff" vice "cadre" in the handbook which specifically rejects the implication that staff are there to provide sheer labor alone:  "The term staff was rejected because it brings no suggestion of honor and leadership; a staff could be a mere collection of employees performing basic labor".


Then, recommend we follow the current approved program and treat them as volunteer adolescent trainees and students. From the approved terms and definitions should come the mindset, and thence the correct treatment. If you care enough to read it, the manual answers the questions on who should be cleaning and why (below).


Good luck.


V/R
Spam

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Encampment_Manual__Reduced_AB957B4D750D4.pdf
Reference: CAPP 52-24 (CAP Encampment Handbook) of 2014, p.3, Para. g:

"Students: Students are “in ranks” cadets. Because their primary responsibility is to learn, they shall be called “students.”

"STUDENTS & CADRE
Two terms that signal encampment is a leadership laboratory

Why has the CAP encampment program adopted student and cadre as standard terms?

Student is a common term in the Air Force, from Air War College down to Airman Leadership School. Student underscores the
belief that leadership is an academic discipline requiring study, in contrast to the misconception of leadership as a knee-jerk reaction.
Trainee was rejected because encampment is an educational effort affecting the whole person, instead of merely relating procedures
for doing a job. First time cadets attend encampment to learn, so students is an appropriate term to signify that role.

Cadre holds military connotations, suggesting not a mere staff but a faculty of honor charged with indoctrinating newcomers.
Its roots go back to old Europoean [sic] armies, where officers would stand-up a unit before its mass of inexperienced troops arrived.
In encampments, cadre is appropriate because these are the experienced cadets who, months before the first official assembly,
plan and organize the program. The term staff was rejected because it brings no suggestion of honor and leadership; a staff
could be a mere collection of employees performing basic labor.

The terms students and cadre do not diminish the cadets’ status as young people learning and leading in a military-style environment.
If anything, these terms add a seriousness of purpose to their important work and illustrate cadet life’s military heritage".

Section 2.10:
"a. Clean-Up. Before being released for the journey home, of course everyone must contribute to the
clean-up effort." [Spam notes, the word "everyone" here]. and "The senior staff should try to have the cadets fulfill all dormitory clean-up duties and close-out obligations prior to graduation".

Section 6.2:
"f. Learning vs. Maintenance. While cadets will need to clean their dormitory and perform simple upkeep, the inspection program is not intended as an exercise in the janitorial and sanitary arts. Again, the goal is to teach teamwork, not to make the floor clean enough to eat from" [Spam notes: this implies that each cadet will perform cleaning tasks in order to learn something, rather than to delegate to one GI party].

Yes sir. I have read your post, and agree to make sure this kind of thing does not happen again. Thank you for your concideration.
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C/1stLt. Blues, CAP         
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
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Posts: 27,981

« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2016, 08:45:23 PM »

Excellent post.

The problem with the "gotcha" mentality, is that it turns information into power, which it always will be,
but in cases like this, it becomes currency as well - those "in" and those "out".  Expectations should be
even and equal for all.

It also propagates the idea that certain types of duties, or daily maintenance tasks, can be avoided if you know
how to navigate the hallway properly, or know the secret handshake, which is another idea counter the core values,
not to mention practical daily life.

Yes, officers and activities leaders tend to be more pointers and less shooters - that's not supposed to be a caste
system, that supposed to be recognition of responsibility, education, and greater responsibility.  An officer
or executive staff member of an encampment may not be cleaning the heads, not because he's "above it", but
because he has 150 people who he is responsible for, and his distraction to perform such a task
will negatively impact the activity as a whole.

It may look like he's "just sitting in there', but the good one's have 100 details swimming in their heads
to keep the place moving.
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The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: The "bowling team"
 


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