The "bowling team"

[Starbird]

So I just got back from Encampment (NH/VT), and was fortunate enough not to obliviously join the bowling team (which may sound fun for the unsuspecting, whereas in reality you are marched off to the latrines to clean the bowls.)  Do other encampments pull this trick on basics, asking them to join the bowling competition against the other flights, only to make them clean the latrines? Lol.

[Eclipse]

No.

[Spaceman3750]

Do you clean bathrooms at other activities/encampments? Sure. But you aren't tricked into it. It's usually along the lines of "I need five people to clean the restrooms for inspection/close-out"

[winterg]

Reminds me of basic training many moons ago when they asked for a volunteers with drivers licenses. Those who volunteered thought they were getting a cushy assignment driving a TI instead got a broom and told to drive it around the bay. 

Not condoning the practice. Only that I have experienced it. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

[Eclipse]

The role of the basic student is to learn, not to clean.  Most, if not all encampments
should have support staff on hand, separate from cadre and students to handle that.

There's no more fire watch, snipe hunts, or left-handed smoke bender competitions, and if kitchen or cleaning duty
is an expectation, it should be detailed in the activity description, not a surprise as punishment or "for laughs".

5 some years into a new program and this stuff is still going on.

[Pace]

If you make it dirty, you clean it. A flight is assigned to a bay. They are going to make it and the bathroom dirty. They should have cleaning rotations (that includes everyone) to keep it clean. On top of time management, it teaches an expectation of being responsible for keeping your area clean (a great life lesson) and should garner a sense of pride.

[arajca]

The role of the basic student is to learn, not to clean.  Most, if not all encampments
should have support staff on hand, separate from cadre and students to handle that.

There's no more fire watch, snipe hunts, or left-handed smoke bender competitions, and if kitchen or cleaning duty
is an expectation, it should be detailed in the activity description, not a surprise as punishment or "for laughs".

5 some years into a new program and this stuff is still going on.

The support staff is not a janitorial service. In regards to cleaning, they make sure supplies and equipment are available and they pitch in like everyone else, but they are not solely responsible for cleaning up after the students.

[Eclipse]

In some cases they literally are - applying for that part of the activity, and in return getting their fees waived while still
participating in all the "fun", non-core curriculum activities.

I agree w/ Pace that if you have an assigned area, and part of the expectation is keeping it clean yourself, then
there is no issue, in that case, the work should be equally distributed, including among cadre.

However if cadets being assigned to clean the heads randomly based on a snipe hunt, that's not right, and could
wander off the line into hazing quickly.

One could also ask why the "bowling team" didn't already have other assigned duties or classes, and how they can wander
off to do "other", and get stuck cleaning the heads without their staff wanting to know where they are.  This is pretty
common at encampments - cadets being randomly assigned "stuff" outside the chain, and since many are new
they don't know who they can say "no" to.

Then the Flight Sgt is wandering around looking for them, wasting his time.

[NIN]

Reminds me of basic training many moons ago when they asked for a volunteers with drivers licenses. Those who volunteered thought they were getting a cushy assignment driving a TI instead got a broom and told to drive it around the bay. 

Not condoning the practice. Only that I have experienced it. 

That was my experience as well.

"What, you don't have a driver's license, Ninness?"
"I don't have a military driver's license, Drill Sergeant."
"Hmm, well, you're right about that. Carry on, Private."

[Mitchell 1969]

The role of the basic student is to learn, not to clean.  Most, if not all encampments
should have support staff on hand, separate from cadre and students to handle that.

There's no more fire watch, snipe hunts, or left-handed smoke bender competitions, and if kitchen or cleaning duty
is an expectation, it should be detailed in the activity description, not a surprise as punishment or "for laughs".

5 some years into a new program and this stuff is still going on.

You're making me crazy. Where do you even GET this stuff?

Cleaning services provided by support staff? In what "Bizarro world CAP" does that happen? (Or would that be "PAC?")

Yes, learning. That is the purpose. But if you can't see the learning that happens during barracks and latrine cleaning, then maybe you are doing it wrong?

Attention to detail; working on schedule; sanitation; teamwork; camaraderie (I can still remember the guys I cleaned commodes with in 1969); pride of accomplishment.

For crying out loud, we even have parents lauding the concept when the cadets get home!

[Mitchell 1969]

I agree w/ Pace that if you have an assigned area, and part of the expectation is keeping it clean yourself, then
there is no issue, in that case, the work should be equally distributed, including among cadre.

Can you clarify that? I absolutely see the logic behind cadre making their own beds, sweeping the floors in their own rooms. Are you saying that they should also take a rotation in common areas, such as hallways, latrines, etc.?

[Eclipse]

Cleaning services provided by support staff?

Let's see, just got done with an activity which has run some 25 years, decorated and recognized
for excellence, and probably at least 2/3rds that time, probably more but we don't have the records, support
cadets attend for free and provide all cleaning and logistical services as needed.

We have had "repeat offenders", both cadets and seniors who return multiple years for the opportunity.

[Eclipse]

I agree w/ Pace that if you have an assigned area, and part of the expectation is keeping it clean yourself, then
there is no issue, in that case, the work should be equally distributed, including among cadre.

Can you clarify that? I absolutely see the logic behind cadre making their own beds, sweeping the floors in their own rooms. Are you saying that they should also take a rotation in common areas, such as hallways, latrines, etc.?

Why not?  Assuming that's the plan for the encampment.

"Servant Leadership"

If the Wing CC and DCP see value in having cadets clean their own heads, so be it, that's their call.

My primary heartburn is situations as stated in the OP where this was clearly not "part of the deal",
and someone had a "good idea" and come up wit the "bowling team".  So only the cadets who
didn't get the joke have to clean?

What's the plan when word gets around on Day 2 about the BT and no one reports?

[DakRadz]

I think regardless of the methodology used, basic cadets should not be taken advantage of. Make a rotation, or take volunteers and don't tell them that they get ice cream for cleaning at the end of the week. Whatever the system, make it uniform.

Misleading cadets does not represent our program well, and I wouldn't accept it as a cadet or senior.

Cruddy jobs have to be done, but not by abusing young cadets. The military is composed of adults, so it's still inappropriate if it's a holdover from the military (and I recognize that the two who experienced this in the military did not condone it).

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

[Toad1168]

Are we really insinuating that requiring personnel to clean up after themselves could be considered hazing?  Ridiculous.  While I don't agree with duping someone into it, there is nothing wrong with assigning a rotation for the cleaning of the flight area.  Or I guess we could include maid service in the encampment fee.

[Eclipse]

Are we really insinuating that requiring personnel to clean up after themselves could be considered hazing?

No, and that's not what was indicated happened here.

While I don't agree with duping someone into it, there is nothing wrong with assigning a rotation for the cleaning of the flight area. 

Agreed, and that's the point.

[Mitchell 1969]

Cleaning services provided by support staff?

Let's see, just got done with an activity which has run some 25 years, decorated and recognized
for excellence, and probably at least 2/3rds that time, probably more but we don't have the records, support
cadets attend for free and provide all cleaning and logistical services as needed.

We have had "repeat offenders", both cadets and seniors who return multiple years for the opportunity.

So, in the interests of "students are there to learn, not clean," you have it set up where other cadets do the cleaning?

What happens if a cadet shows up to apply for a cadre position does the road and says "I've been to four encampments," with one as a student and three as a housekeeper? I'm having a hard time seeing the development potential in that.

Meanwhile, at the Other Wing encampment, his cousin shows up, said "I have four encampments, one as a student, one in the advanced flight, one as a Flight Commander and now I'm ready to take on the Squadron Commander challenge."  His cleaning ticket was punched at his first encampment, along with the tickets of everybody else in his flight.From then on, he learned different things every time out.

[Mitchell 1969]

I agree w/ Pace that if you have an assigned area, and part of the expectation is keeping it clean yourself, then
there is no issue, in that case, the work should be equally distributed, including among cadre.

Can you clarify that? I absolutely see the logic behind cadre making their own beds, sweeping the floors in their own rooms. Are you saying that they should also take a rotation in common areas, such as hallways, latrines, etc.?

Why not?  Assuming that's the plan for the encampment.

"Servant Leadership"

If the Wing CC and DCP see value in having cadets clean their own heads, so be it, that's their call.

"OK, let's get this staff meeting started..."

"Sorry, Sir, the flight commanders of Alpha and Bravo won't be here.  They are on the rotation for cleaning the latrines.  Charlie and Delta flight sergeants can only stay 10 minutes, they have to run buffers..."

Nobody's above doing anything, I get it.  But the "jobs" of students and cadre are different.  Students don't do cadre things, so they don't have to worry about scheduling time for them.  Cadre, meanwhile, have pretty full plates.  Keeping their individual areas up to snuff is expected.  But I still don't see any logic in having them do the common area tasks. They have enough to do and little time to do it.

[Eclipse]

So, in the interests of "students are there to learn, not clean," you have it set up where other cadets do the cleaning?

Yes, cadets who have already completed at least one encampment, preferably this activity, and for whatever reason are not
interested in a staff (cadre) role.

Some don't think they are ready.  My wing has two encampments a year, and stresses 1st year attendance of at least
one for all cadets.  The result is that we get a lot of young students, who by the next encampment are not prepared for
a cadre role.  On occasion they come as support (though we prefer older, more independent cadets), and can watch the
show from the relative sidelines, then the next year, when they are ready, they jump into the cadre pool as FS or FC.

CAP has incredibly inconsistent levels of training and scale from unit to unit, not all cadets are properly prepared by
their CCs to simply assume cadre roles, nor do they all progress at the same pace.

There's also the issue of cadets who can't afford to attend, especially their second or third encampment.  This affords them
that opportunity.

What happens if a cadet shows up to apply for a cadre position does the road and says "I've been to four encampments," with one as a student and three as a housekeeper? I'm having a hard time seeing the development potential in that.

First, they aren't "housekeepers", and denigrating their critical role to make your argument impinges on the core value of respect.
The activity could not run without them, they do a lot more then clean, and as mentioned before get the benefit of participating
fully without having to pay.  They are part of Logistics, and as such do a lot of the backstage functions that allow the students
to have a rich training environment without distractions.

To address the point, we can't force cadets to apply for or serve on staff, and there are also only so many cadre slots to go around.
Some enjoy the activity for what it is, and I would hazard them being there is better then not being there, as they are supporting
their fellow cadets in a difficult job few want.  As to development, Support functions as a flight, has assigned cadets and adult POCs,
and if you want to see teamwork and leadership, that's the place to look.  We make those choices on purpose based on the cadet's
ability and attitude and do not take them lightly.

Also, Support cadets are encouraged to attend RST, as that then allows them to serve as backup should cadre drop, which happens
all too often.

[Mitchell 1969]

What happens if a cadet shows up to apply for a cadre position does the road and says "I've been to four encampments," with one as a student and three as a housekeeper? I'm having a hard time seeing the development potential in that.

First, they aren't "housekeepers", and denigrating their critical role to make your argument impinges on the core value of respect.

No. I'm voicing my opinion, which includes a belief that having logistics staff perform cleaning duties for students is NOT a "critical role" and funding cadets to go to encampment to do so seems to show a lack of respect in itself.

But, I'm clearly not going to convince you of that. Your choice now is to move on or have the last word. You needn't write a lot, if you choose the latter. Just type "at" or even "a" and you can claim last word status. I'm done with this thread.

[sarmed1]

.....and as mentioned before get the benefit of participating fully without having to pay.

That would not be the case for every wing, quite a few I have been at require everyone to pay to cover the costs of shirts, food and rooms.  In your local that may be the case, but I wouldnt paint things with so wide of a brush as a universal "proving point".

MK

[Eclipse]

I never said or insinuated this was universal.

[Ned]

When I get a vote, I generally require all seniors to pay for at least the food they consume and any billeting costs.  Personally, I cannot accept cadets subsidizing my room and board when it should be the other way around.

YMMV.

[Eclipse]

Agreed.

[PReeves]

Students

[Eclipse]

Sadly for the basics' sake,

The proper term is "students".

It is most likely going to become a new trend at NH/VT. Lol

Let's hope not, ad if you have influence as a leader and cadet officer in your wing, perhaps you can
dispel this improper practice.

[Майор Хаткевич]

So I just got back from Encampment (NH/VT), and was fortunate enough not to obliviously join the bowling team (which may sound fun for the unsuspecting, whereas in reality you are marched off to the latrines to clean the bowls.)  Do other encampments pull this trick on basics, asking them to join the bowling competition against the other flights, only to make them clean the latrines? Lol.

Sadly for the basics' sake, I was the one to suggest that to the squadron commanders. The 1stSgts my basic year (last year, Mangan and Quinlan) decided to do that to us. The SqdnComs liked the idea, and told the flight staff to promote it. It is most likely going to become a new trend at NH/VT. Lol

What Eclipse said. Until that is, units begin to have retention issues, because inadvertently, some cadets will quit CAP over this stupid behaviour, and end up scaring other cadets in their unit from even applying to the event, because they would have heard the story. On the other hand, those that DO go, will know the "joke", and not fall for it.


Where the the Seniors when stupidity reigns?

[PA Guy]

So I just got back from Encampment (NH/VT), and was fortunate enough not to obliviously join the bowling team (which may sound fun for the unsuspecting, whereas in reality you are marched off to the latrines to clean the bowls.)  Do other encampments pull this trick on basics, asking them to join the bowling competition against the other flights, only to make them clean the latrines? Lol.

Sadly for the basics' sake, I was the one to suggest that to the squadron commanders. The 1stSgts my basic year (last year, Mangan and Quinlan) decided to do that to us. The SqdnComs liked the idea, and told the flight staff to promote it. It is most likely going to become a new trend at NH/VT. Lol

As they say in the South, [darn] brother I don't believe I would have told that. It is a stupid silly practice that demonstrates a lack of leadership on the cadre's part and a complete lack of leadership on the part of the senior leadership. By the way, have you ever read CAPP 52- 24? If not you need to take the time to read it. It is The Word when it comes to CAP encampments. Not silly war stories about the good ole days. Students (basics) are not there for your amusement.

[PReeves]

Sadly for the basics' sake,

The proper term is "students".

It is most likely going to become a new trend at NH/VT. Lol

Let's hope not, ad if you have influence as a leader and cadet officer in your wing, perhaps you can
dispel this improper practice.

Yeah. I'll be sure to go against it next encampment. Thank you.

[PReeves]

So I just got back from Encampment (NH/VT), and was fortunate enough not to obliviously join the bowling team (which may sound fun for the unsuspecting, whereas in reality you are marched off to the latrines to clean the bowls.)  Do other encampments pull this trick on basics, asking them to join the bowling competition against the other flights, only to make them clean the latrines? Lol.

Sadly for the basics' sake, I was the one to suggest that to the squadron commanders. The 1stSgts my basic year (last year, Mangan and Quinlan) decided to do that to us. The SqdnComs liked the idea, and told the flight staff to promote it. It is most likely going to become a new trend at NH/VT. Lol

As they say in the South, [darn] brother I don't believe I would have told that. It is a stupid silly practice that demonstrates a lack of leadership on the cadre's part and a complete lack of leadership on the part of the senior leadership. By the way, have you ever read CAPP 52- 24? If not you need to take the time to read it. It is The Word when it comes to CAP encampments. Not silly war stories about the good ole days. Students (basics) are not there for your amusement.

Yes, I realize that. I apologize for my post earlier. It was unacceptable. I will be sure to stand against this next encampment. Thank you.

[Eclipse]

Yes, I realize that. I apologize for my post earlier. It was unacceptable. I will be sure to stand against this next encampment. Thank you.

Just to be clear, there was nothing wrong with your post, per se, and as a Cadet, you are learning.  Making mistakes
is not only part of the deal, it's expected.

In the specific case, if the environment is not properly supervised, or the expectations for behavior aren't
properly set by the adults, then your actions in that light are understandable,

It's how you react, and potentially try to impact change once you find out something was outside the line
that defines you as a leader and an officer, not making a mistake.

[PReeves]

Yes, I realize that. I apologize for my post earlier. It was unacceptable. I will be sure to stand against this next encampment. Thank you.

Just to be clear, there was nothing wrong with your post, per se, and as a Cadet, you are learning.  Making mistakes
is not only part of the deal, it's expected.

In the specific case, if the environment is not properly supervised, or the expectations for behavior aren't
properly set by the adults, then your actions in that light are understandable,

It's how you react, and potentially try to impact change once you find out something was outside the line
that defines you as a leader and an officer, not making a mistake.

Thank you, I just feel really bad about posting that earlier. Thank you, though.

[Spam]

A question for you, LT - will you change your behavior because of your own subjective feelings, because some anonymous guys on here said to, or... because that is the program as written down in our CAP cadet protection policy and encampment handbook? I'd like to suggest that you start breaking with "going by hearsay and tradition", and by reading the manual and referring to it.


So, here's a friendly suggestion, everyone: lets begin by not calling first time attendees "basics".
You cannot attend encampment without at least a Curry Award (C/AMN), so this is NOT basic training.
From the obsolete mind set that these are "basics", there's always some carry over feeling that some of the romanticized Hollywood horse dung of (old, obsolete, draftee-era) boot camps should apply, with these sorts of abuses.


Note also the rejection of the term "staff" vice "cadre" in the handbook which specifically rejects the implication that staff are there to provide sheer labor alone:  "The term staff was rejected because it brings no suggestion of honor and leadership; a staff could be a mere collection of employees performing basic labor".


Then, recommend we follow the current approved program and treat them as volunteer adolescent trainees and students. From the approved terms and definitions should come the mindset, and thence the correct treatment. If you care enough to read it, the manual answers the questions on who should be cleaning and why (below).


Good luck.


V/R
Spam

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Encampment_Manual__Reduced_AB957B4D750D4.pdf
Reference: CAPP 52-24 (CAP Encampment Handbook) of 2014, p.3, Para. g:

"Students: Students are "in ranks" cadets. Because their primary responsibility is to learn, they shall be called "students."

"STUDENTS & CADRE
Two terms that signal encampment is a leadership laboratory

Why has the CAP encampment program adopted student and cadre as standard terms?

Student is a common term in the Air Force, from Air War College down to Airman Leadership School. Student underscores the
belief that leadership is an academic discipline requiring study, in contrast to the misconception of leadership as a knee-jerk reaction.
Trainee was rejected because encampment is an educational effort affecting the whole person, instead of merely relating procedures
for doing a job. First time cadets attend encampment to learn, so students is an appropriate term to signify that role.

Cadre holds military connotations, suggesting not a mere staff but a faculty of honor charged with indoctrinating newcomers.
Its roots go back to old Europoean [sic] armies, where officers would stand-up a unit before its mass of inexperienced troops arrived.
In encampments, cadre is appropriate because these are the experienced cadets who, months before the first official assembly,
plan and organize the program. The term staff was rejected because it brings no suggestion of honor and leadership; a staff
could be a mere collection of employees performing basic labor.

The terms students and cadre do not diminish the cadets' status as young people learning and leading in a military-style environment.
If anything, these terms add a seriousness of purpose to their important work and illustrate cadet life's military heritage".

Section 2.10:
"a. Clean-Up. Before being released for the journey home, of course everyone must contribute to the
clean-up effort." [Spam notes, the word "everyone" here]. and "The senior staff should try to have the cadets fulfill all dormitory clean-up duties and close-out obligations prior to graduation".

Section 6.2:
"f. Learning vs. Maintenance. While cadets will need to clean their dormitory and perform simple upkeep, the inspection program is not intended as an exercise in the janitorial and sanitary arts. Again, the goal is to teach teamwork, not to make the floor clean enough to eat from" [Spam notes: this implies that each cadet will perform cleaning tasks in order to learn something, rather than to delegate to one GI party].

[PReeves]

A question for you, LT - will you change your behavior because of your own subjective feelings, because some anonymous guys on here said to, or... because that is the program as written down in our CAP cadet protection policy and encampment handbook? I'd like to suggest that you start breaking with "going by hearsay and tradition", and by reading the manual and referring to it.


So, here's a friendly suggestion, everyone: lets begin by not calling first time attendees "basics".
You cannot attend encampment without at least a Curry Award (C/AMN), so this is NOT basic training.
From the obsolete mind set that these are "basics", there's always some carry over feeling that some of the romanticized Hollywood horse dung of (old, obsolete, draftee-era) boot camps should apply, with these sorts of abuses.





Note also the rejection of the term "staff" vice "cadre" in the handbook which specifically rejects the implication that staff are there to provide sheer labor alone:  "The term staff was rejected because it brings no suggestion of honor and leadership; a staff could be a mere collection of employees performing basic labor".


Then, recommend we follow the current approved program and treat them as volunteer adolescent trainees and students. From the approved terms and definitions should come the mindset, and thence the correct treatment. If you care enough to read it, the manual answers the questions on who should be cleaning and why (below).


Good luck.


V/R
Spam

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/Encampment_Manual__Reduced_AB957B4D750D4.pdf
Reference: CAPP 52-24 (CAP Encampment Handbook) of 2014, p.3, Para. g:

"Students: Students are "in ranks" cadets. Because their primary responsibility is to learn, they shall be called "students."

"STUDENTS & CADRE
Two terms that signal encampment is a leadership laboratory

Why has the CAP encampment program adopted student and cadre as standard terms?

Student is a common term in the Air Force, from Air War College down to Airman Leadership School. Student underscores the
belief that leadership is an academic discipline requiring study, in contrast to the misconception of leadership as a knee-jerk reaction.
Trainee was rejected because encampment is an educational effort affecting the whole person, instead of merely relating procedures
for doing a job. First time cadets attend encampment to learn, so students is an appropriate term to signify that role.

Cadre holds military connotations, suggesting not a mere staff but a faculty of honor charged with indoctrinating newcomers.
Its roots go back to old Europoean [sic] armies, where officers would stand-up a unit before its mass of inexperienced troops arrived.
In encampments, cadre is appropriate because these are the experienced cadets who, months before the first official assembly,
plan and organize the program. The term staff was rejected because it brings no suggestion of honor and leadership; a staff
could be a mere collection of employees performing basic labor.

The terms students and cadre do not diminish the cadets' status as young people learning and leading in a military-style environment.
If anything, these terms add a seriousness of purpose to their important work and illustrate cadet life's military heritage".

Section 2.10:
"a. Clean-Up. Before being released for the journey home, of course everyone must contribute to the
clean-up effort." [Spam notes, the word "everyone" here]. and "The senior staff should try to have the cadets fulfill all dormitory clean-up duties and close-out obligations prior to graduation".

Section 6.2:
"f. Learning vs. Maintenance. While cadets will need to clean their dormitory and perform simple upkeep, the inspection program is not intended as an exercise in the janitorial and sanitary arts. Again, the goal is to teach teamwork, not to make the floor clean enough to eat from" [Spam notes: this implies that each cadet will perform cleaning tasks in order to learn something, rather than to delegate to one GI party].

Yes sir. I have read your post, and agree to make sure this kind of thing does not happen again. Thank you for your concideration.

[Eclipse]

Excellent post.

The problem with the "gotcha" mentality, is that it turns information into power, which it always will be,
but in cases like this, it becomes currency as well - those "in" and those "out".  Expectations should be
even and equal for all.

It also propagates the idea that certain types of duties, or daily maintenance tasks, can be avoided if you know
how to navigate the hallway properly, or know the secret handshake, which is another idea counter the core values,
not to mention practical daily life.

Yes, officers and activities leaders tend to be more pointers and less shooters - that's not supposed to be a caste
system, that supposed to be recognition of responsibility, education, and greater responsibility.  An officer
or executive staff member of an encampment may not be cleaning the heads, not because he's "above it", but
because he has 150 people who he is responsible for, and his distraction to perform such a task
will negatively impact the activity as a whole.

It may look like he's "just sitting in there', but the good one's have 100 details swimming in their heads
to keep the place moving.