Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
November 24, 2017, 03:13:45 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: The "bowling team"
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] 2  All Print
Author Topic: The "bowling team"  (Read 3313 times)
Starbird
Recruit

Posts: 10
Unit: NER-NH-056

« on: July 25, 2016, 09:28:33 AM »

So I just got back from Encampment (NH/VT), and was fortunate enough not to obliviously join the bowling team (which may sound fun for the unsuspecting, whereas in reality you are marched off to the latrines to clean the bowls.)  Do other encampments pull this trick on basics, asking them to join the bowling competition against the other flights, only to make them clean the latrines? Lol.
Logged
Ad Astra per Aspera
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2016, 09:34:24 AM »

No.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Spaceman3750
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,609

« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2016, 10:17:52 AM »

Do you clean bathrooms at other activities/encampments? Sure. But you aren't tricked into it. It's usually along the lines of "I need five people to clean the restrooms for inspection/close-out"
Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
winterg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 743
Unit: SER-FL-182

« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2016, 10:32:34 AM »

Reminds me of basic training many moons ago when they asked for a volunteers with drivers licenses. Those who volunteered thought they were getting a cushy assignment driving a TI instead got a broom and told to drive it around the bay. 

Not condoning the practice. Only that I have experienced it. 

Transmitted via my R5 astromech.

Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2016, 10:36:19 AM »

The role of the basic student is to learn, not to clean.  Most, if not all encampments
should have support staff on hand, separate from cadre and students to handle that.

There's no more fire watch, snipe hunts, or left-handed smoke bender competitions, and if kitchen or cleaning duty
is an expectation, it should be detailed in the activity description, not a surprise as punishment or "for laughs".

5 some years into a new program and this stuff is still going on.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 665

« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2016, 10:44:39 AM »

If you make it dirty, you clean it. A flight is assigned to a bay. They are going to make it and the bathroom dirty. They should have cleaning rotations (that includes everyone) to keep it clean. On top of time management, it teaches an expectation of being responsible for keeping your area clean (a great life lesson) and should garner a sense of pride.
Logged
Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,161

« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2016, 10:51:28 AM »

The role of the basic student is to learn, not to clean.  Most, if not all encampments
should have support staff on hand, separate from cadre and students to handle that.

There's no more fire watch, snipe hunts, or left-handed smoke bender competitions, and if kitchen or cleaning duty
is an expectation, it should be detailed in the activity description, not a surprise as punishment or "for laughs".

5 some years into a new program and this stuff is still going on.
The support staff is not a janitorial service. In regards to cleaning, they make sure supplies and equipment are available and they pitch in like everyone else, but they are not solely responsible for cleaning up after the students.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2016, 11:06:35 AM »

In some cases they literally are - applying for that part of the activity, and in return getting their fees waived while still
participating in all the "fun", non-core curriculum activities.

I agree w/ Pace that if you have an assigned area, and part of the expectation is keeping it clean yourself, then
there is no issue, in that case, the work should be equally distributed, including among cadre.

However if cadets being assigned to clean the heads randomly based on a snipe hunt, that's not right, and could
wander off the line into hazing quickly.

One could also ask why the "bowling team" didn't already have other assigned duties or classes, and how they can wander
off to do "other", and get stuck cleaning the heads without their staff wanting to know where they are.  This is pretty
common at encampments - cadets being randomly assigned "stuff" outside the chain, and since many are new
they don't know who they can say "no" to.

Then the Flight Sgt is wandering around looking for them, wasting his time.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 11:11:19 AM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,664
Unit: of issue

« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2016, 12:31:04 PM »

Reminds me of basic training many moons ago when they asked for a volunteers with drivers licenses. Those who volunteered thought they were getting a cushy assignment driving a TI instead got a broom and told to drive it around the bay. 

Not condoning the practice. Only that I have experienced it. 

That was my experience as well.

"What, you don't have a driver's license, Ninness?"
"I don't have a military driver's license, Drill Sergeant."
"Hmm, well, you're right about that. Carry on, Private."
Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2016, 04:04:34 PM »

The role of the basic student is to learn, not to clean.  Most, if not all encampments
should have support staff on hand, separate from cadre and students to handle that.

There's no more fire watch, snipe hunts, or left-handed smoke bender competitions, and if kitchen or cleaning duty
is an expectation, it should be detailed in the activity description, not a surprise as punishment or "for laughs".

5 some years into a new program and this stuff is still going on.

You're making me crazy. Where do you even GET this stuff?

Cleaning services provided by support staff? In what "Bizarro world CAP" does that happen? (Or would that be "PAC?")

Yes, learning. That is the purpose. But if you can't see the learning that happens during barracks and latrine cleaning, then maybe you are doing it wrong?

Attention to detail; working on schedule; sanitation; teamwork; camaraderie (I can still remember the guys I cleaned commodes with in 1969); pride of accomplishment.

For crying out loud, we even have parents lauding the concept when the cadets get home!

Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2016, 04:08:57 PM »

I agree w/ Pace that if you have an assigned area, and part of the expectation is keeping it clean yourself, then
there is no issue, in that case, the work should be equally distributed, including among cadre.

Can you clarify that? I absolutely see the logic behind cadre making their own beds, sweeping the floors in their own rooms. Are you saying that they should also take a rotation in common areas, such as hallways, latrines, etc.?
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2016, 04:17:54 PM »

Cleaning services provided by support staff?

Let's see, just got done with an activity which has run some 25 years, decorated and recognized
for excellence, and probably at least 2/3rds that time, probably more but we don't have the records, support
cadets attend for free and provide all cleaning and logistical services as needed.

We have had "repeat offenders", both cadets and seniors who return multiple years for the opportunity.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2016, 04:18:36 PM »

I agree w/ Pace that if you have an assigned area, and part of the expectation is keeping it clean yourself, then
there is no issue, in that case, the work should be equally distributed, including among cadre.

Can you clarify that? I absolutely see the logic behind cadre making their own beds, sweeping the floors in their own rooms. Are you saying that they should also take a rotation in common areas, such as hallways, latrines, etc.?

Why not?  Assuming that's the plan for the encampment.

"Servant Leadership"

If the Wing CC and DCP see value in having cadets clean their own heads, so be it, that's their call.

My primary heartburn is situations as stated in the OP where this was clearly not "part of the deal",
and someone had a "good idea" and come up wit the "bowling team".  So only the cadets who
didn't get the joke have to clean?

What's the plan when word gets around on Day 2 about the BT and no one reports?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 04:22:53 PM by Eclipse » Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,351

« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2016, 04:19:21 PM »

I think regardless of the methodology used, basic cadets should not be taken advantage of. Make a rotation, or take volunteers and don't tell them that they get ice cream for cleaning at the end of the week. Whatever the system, make it uniform.

Misleading cadets does not represent our program well, and I wouldn't accept it as a cadet or senior.

Cruddy jobs have to be done, but not by abusing young cadets. The military is composed of adults, so it's still inappropriate if it's a holdover from the military (and I recognize that the two who experienced this in the military did not condone it).

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

Logged
Toad1168
Forum Regular

Posts: 130
Unit: NCR-MO-110

« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2016, 04:31:29 PM »

Are we really insinuating that requiring personnel to clean up after themselves could be considered hazing?  Ridiculous.  While I don't agree with duping someone into it, there is nothing wrong with assigning a rotation for the cleaning of the flight area.  Or I guess we could include maid service in the encampment fee.
Logged
Mike Toedebusch
Spaatz Award 1168 - 1 June 1993
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2016, 04:33:36 PM »

Are we really insinuating that requiring personnel to clean up after themselves could be considered hazing?

No, and that's not what was indicated happened here.

While I don't agree with duping someone into it, there is nothing wrong with assigning a rotation for the cleaning of the flight area. 

Agreed, and that's the point.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2016, 11:45:01 PM »

Cleaning services provided by support staff?

Let's see, just got done with an activity which has run some 25 years, decorated and recognized
for excellence, and probably at least 2/3rds that time, probably more but we don't have the records, support
cadets attend for free and provide all cleaning and logistical services as needed.

We have had "repeat offenders", both cadets and seniors who return multiple years for the opportunity.

So, in the interests of "students are there to learn, not clean," you have it set up where other cadets do the cleaning?

What happens if a cadet shows up to apply for a cadre position does the road and says "I've been to four encampments," with one as a student and three as a housekeeper? I'm having a hard time seeing the development potential in that.

Meanwhile, at the Other Wing encampment, his cousin shows up, said "I have four encampments, one as a student, one in the advanced flight, one as a Flight Commander and now I'm ready to take on the Squadron Commander challenge."  His cleaning ticket was punched at his first encampment, along with the tickets of everybody else in his flight.From then on, he learned different things every time out.
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2016, 11:55:00 PM »

I agree w/ Pace that if you have an assigned area, and part of the expectation is keeping it clean yourself, then
there is no issue, in that case, the work should be equally distributed, including among cadre.

Can you clarify that? I absolutely see the logic behind cadre making their own beds, sweeping the floors in their own rooms. Are you saying that they should also take a rotation in common areas, such as hallways, latrines, etc.?

Why not?  Assuming that's the plan for the encampment.

"Servant Leadership"

If the Wing CC and DCP see value in having cadets clean their own heads, so be it, that's their call.

"OK, let's get this staff meeting started..."

"Sorry, Sir, the flight commanders of Alpha and Bravo won't be here.  They are on the rotation for cleaning the latrines.  Charlie and Delta flight sergeants can only stay 10 minutes, they have to run buffers..."

Nobody's above doing anything, I get it.  But the "jobs" of students and cadre are different.  Students don't do cadre things, so they don't have to worry about scheduling time for them.  Cadre, meanwhile, have pretty full plates.  Keeping their individual areas up to snuff is expected.  But I still don't see any logic in having them do the common area tasks. They have enough to do and little time to do it.

Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award
***
Posts: 27,996

« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2016, 12:13:28 AM »

So, in the interests of "students are there to learn, not clean," you have it set up where other cadets do the cleaning?

Yes, cadets who have already completed at least one encampment, preferably this activity, and for whatever reason are not
interested in a staff (cadre) role.

Some don't think they are ready.  My wing has two encampments a year, and stresses 1st year attendance of at least
one for all cadets.  The result is that we get a lot of young students, who by the next encampment are not prepared for
a cadre role.  On occasion they come as support (though we prefer older, more independent cadets), and can watch the
show from the relative sidelines, then the next year, when they are ready, they jump into the cadre pool as FS or FC.

CAP has incredibly inconsistent levels of training and scale from unit to unit, not all cadets are properly prepared by
their CCs to simply assume cadre roles, nor do they all progress at the same pace.

There's also the issue of cadets who can't afford to attend, especially their second or third encampment.  This affords them
that opportunity.

What happens if a cadet shows up to apply for a cadre position does the road and says "I've been to four encampments," with one as a student and three as a housekeeper? I'm having a hard time seeing the development potential in that.
First, they aren't "housekeepers", and denigrating their critical role to make your argument impinges on the core value of respect.
The activity could not run without them, they do a lot more then clean, and as mentioned before get the benefit of participating
fully without having to pay.  They are part of Logistics, and as such do a lot of the backstage functions that allow the students
to have a rich training environment without distractions.

To address the point, we can't force cadets to apply for or serve on staff, and there are also only so many cadre slots to go around.
Some enjoy the activity for what it is, and I would hazard them being there is better then not being there, as they are supporting
their fellow cadets in a difficult job few want.  As to development, Support functions as a flight, has assigned cadets and adult POCs,
and if you want to see teamwork and leadership, that's the place to look.  We make those choices on purpose based on the cadet's
ability and attitude and do not take them lightly.

Also, Support cadets are encouraged to attend RST, as that then allows them to serve as backup should cadre drop, which happens
all too often.
Logged

"Effort" does not equal "results".
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by eclipse. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 689
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2016, 01:20:29 AM »



What happens if a cadet shows up to apply for a cadre position does the road and says "I've been to four encampments," with one as a student and three as a housekeeper? I'm having a hard time seeing the development potential in that.
First, they aren't "housekeepers", and denigrating their critical role to make your argument impinges on the core value of respect.

No. I'm voicing my opinion, which includes a belief that having logistics staff perform cleaning duties for students is NOT a "critical role" and funding cadets to go to encampment to do so seems to show a lack of respect in itself.

But, I'm clearly not going to convince you of that. Your choice now is to move on or have the last word. You needn't write a lot, if you choose the latter. Just type "at" or even "a" and you can claim last word status. I'm done with this thread.
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Pages: [1] 2  All Print 
CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: The "bowling team"
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.13 | SMF © 2016, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.29 seconds with 20 queries.