Aircraft Technology

Started by SAR-EMT1, May 26, 2007, 06:58:55 AM

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SAR-EMT1

Being as I am a newer member to CAP - 6 years- and a not yet a pilot I was wondering if the airdales here could educate me as to the following:

Why did CAP see a need to have glass cockpit technology? Is there a valid use in our world?

How did items like Archer, SDIS and the like first come about, and how have they significantly assisted aircrews? - or have they.

Thanks
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

ELTHunter

I'm not a pilot, I'm an observer, but I can give you my two cents worth.  Here in mountainous east Tennessee, the glass cockpit 182's have terrain avoidance that can make mountain and night search flights more safer.  They also have weather avoidance equipment I understand.

As an observer though, I am not a fan.  From what I have heard, they require the pilot do focus a lot on what's going on inside the cockpit.  As a result, they like to fly with two pilots up front, which makes my job kinda boring.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

JohnKachenmeister

I am a pilot, and I have never flown glass cockpit airplanes. But I think that glass cockpits is where aviation is going for the future.

In 25 or 30 years, the steam-guage panel will be as much of an anachronism as tail-draggers and biplanes are now.

Another former CAP officer

sparks

I'm a pilot and have experience with the glass cockpit. A G1000 equipped 182 flies just like other 182's.  The problem is every pilot must be specifically qualified in it's operation, uniquer training and CAPF 5. Just like the Gippsland GA8, only a few pilots in each wing receive the training. It's a logistical problem, if the aircraft is assigned to a unit no where near your squadron receiving training and staying current really isn't practical. At a recent exercise those planes were present but could only be flown by the pilots who brought them. No other qualified pilots attended. The G1000 will continue to be a flexibility problem until many, many more of them are assigned to wings.

Does CAP really need the G1000 technology? That depends on who you talk to. Flying VFR at search altitudes is just as productive with steam gauges as glass and maybe cheaper. Terrain and weather avoidance features of glass are great but not really necessary on most VFR missions.

Our opinions don't matter since NHQ and the Air Force have decided that's what CAP will be buying. It's a matter of attrition before all steam gauge aircraft have been sold. If CAP replaces 30 aircraft a year and we have a total of about 520 just do the math. Some of the 520 (not sure that's the correct number) include glass and GA8 so the actual number could be around 400. In any case 10 years from now CAP could be all glass and maybe all 182,  if the money keeps flowing..   

The GA8 Gippsland is steam gauge, ironic isn't it.

SJFedor

Cessna stopped producing steam gauge aircraft for their light GA line a year or two ago. If you want steam gauges, you have to pay extra to get it as a custom from the factory.

The G1000 looks like a more complicated system then it really is. It's really rather similar to the steam gauges, it's just that the instrument scan is different, and when something fails, you don't have to figure it out on your own: it lets you know. It's a little more involved with grid work then the GX50s and 60s in our fleet, but nothing that can't be learned in a few minutes.

It's costing a bit more then the steam gauges did, but situational awareness is greatly improved.

I believe CAP's ultimate goal is to transition to an all high performance fleet (182s, 206's, and GA-8s) because these aircraft carry more weight (a 172 on a hot day with full fuel can carry about 2.4 standard sized senior members). This is why they've made transitioning to a 182 a little easier in the regs, including letting cadet primary training be conducted in high performance aircraft.

SDIS came about a bit ago when someone got the great idea to take pictures and email them via satphone. It's not really there to benefit the crew, but moreso to benefit the customer (FEMA, State EMA's, NOC, whoever wants the pictures) because instead of us describing what we're seeing on a disaster relief mission, we can take the picture, send it to those who want it, and that rapidly improves response times, whether it's to get a damaged structure repaired, rescue people on rooftops during a flood or people stranded in their cars during a snowstorm. It's simply the rapid transfer of critical information.

ARCHER, in theory, is a good thing. Picks up the IR signature of anything it sees. Problem is, it needs to be sunny out, and it can't see through clouds. So unless you have a perfect day, it's not that useful.

And yeah, the GA-8 is steam, because I don't believe Gippsland has a TSO or an STC to put any type of glass in their aircraft. I'm sure eventually they will be, and they'll either get the G1000 or the Chelten system, or something new we don't know about.

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

RiverAux

glass cockpit is the way aircraft technology is going and there is no way we were going to avoid it, so why not be ahead of the curve? 

Speaking strictly as a non-pilot observer I think it is great as the map options make it much easier to keep track of where you are when trying to coordinate with ground teams. 

flymore

Obseervers that train on and understand the MFD will tell you there is no comparison to the information they can provide the pilot. Just as in anything new, you HAVE to know and understand what you are using to be effective. Putting an untrained observer in the right seat is against National regs to begin with.
Even a form 5 pilot without proper training will never use the power available in the MFD.
A well trained observer makes my job a whole lot easier.
Learn it and use it. That's the way we are headed. There is no going back. Cessna only installs G-1000.

ELTHunter

Quote from: flymore on May 27, 2007, 03:14:49 AM
Obseervers that train on and understand the MFD will tell you there is no comparison to the information they can provide the pilot. Just as in anything new, you HAVE to know and understand what you are using to be effective. Putting an untrained observer in the right seat is against National regs to begin with.
Even a form 5 pilot without proper training will never use the power available in the MFD.
A well trained observer makes my job a whole lot easier.
Learn it and use it. That's the way we are headed. There is no going back. Cessna only installs G-1000.

So far, I don't think any observers around here (unless they are also pilots) have BEEN trained to sit in the right seat.  We haven't had our G1000 for all that long, and there are still a lot of pilots that haven't been trained in it yet, so I may be being a little unfair.  I woulc welcome the opportunity to be trained on it.  I have just heard pilots saying they think it should have a crew with a co-pilot instead of an observer.  I hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.  I put extra time into learning things that are not required of observers so I can better understand what's going on in the aircraft, and how I might better understand how to help the pilot...if he asks.

Some pilots understand and use CRM, some think if you don't have a pilots license you should sit there and not touch anything but the DF, and only look out the window.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

ctrossen

As a non-pilot observer, it's definitely a different way of thinking - and just like the transition to the Apollo GPS units, it's going to take time to get trained up and then time to remain current. On the bright side, most of the training materials you need are free (or nearly free) and online.

Check out the Garmin website. specifically, here: https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=153&pID=6420

From there, you can download a whole slew of PDFs that will take you step by step through learnng the G1000. You can also buy a G1000 PC trainer, for $3.99 plus shipping. It's a full-feature trainer that will let you work through just about everything you need. For pilots *and* observers. If you're interested, take the time to learn the system, espcially since you don't need to be anywhere near the airplane to do a lot of the work.

I've heard pilots say that the G1000 makes it harder to do their jobs, that they can't fly their search patterns anymore. That, of course, is total bunk. But then again, these are pilots who only knew the Apollo and it's handy SAR functions, and who never really "got" that CAP has been flying these search patterns for many, many years before GPS or LORAN. Ultimately, I keep hearing that Garmin will eventally come up with a SAR function upgrade to the G1000. Until then, you've got a whole lot of power there. You might just have to think a little out of the box to realize how to use it to do our jobs.
Chris Trossen, Lt Col, CAP
Agency Liaison
Wisconsin Wing

flymore

General Pineda sent a memo dated 18 November 2005 stating, "CAP Wings/Regions will also conduct       G-1000 familiarization training for observers and scanners who are not receiving pilot G-1000 training...."
So. If you have a glass plane and want to fly right seat, you need to have the proper training from your Wing.
National has an observer training package available just for that purpose. Maybe they forgot to tell you.

Garmin has the Simulator disk available but there is a lot of intensive computer time and some of the information is not intuitive or easy to sift out of the 285 page manual. The observer does not have to know the PFD but they really need to know how the MFD works.
Harlan Zentner
Washington Wing

SJFedor

Observers really should be sitting right next to the pilots in the classroom when they're learning the functions. Being able to be confident enough to push the buttons and know the plane won't fall out of the sky from pushing the wrong one is the first big step to these new fangled toys.

It's funny that some pilots have issues with flying grids with the system, since I distincly remember there being a box on the Form 91 that requires a mission pilot to find and fly a grid using "no electronic means", that is, by dead reckoning.

It's a fun new toy, and I remember when they first released them in the fleet, they were like the shiny new toy and only the guys in the GOB club were gonna fly them. It's slowly changing, and I think it's that initial attitude that has made a lot of people wary about it.

Don't be scared, you can't break anything with it, unless you get so frustrated you hit the panel, and even then, the screen can revert fully to one or the other!

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

Larry Mangum

Washington Wing hold classes for Observers and has developed a curriculum for observers and scanners that has been sent to national for adoption.
Larry Mangum, Lt Col CAP
DCS, Operations
SWR-SWR-001

bosshawk

I am most interested in the cirriculum that you folks in WAWG have developed for the observers.  We now have three glass-cockpit 182s, with a fourth inbound and a fifth due later this summer in CAWG.  As far as I know, there is no move afoot in CAWG to do any training for the right-seaters.  As a long time pilot, I am convinced that the person next to me is as valuable as the guy pushing the knobs and twisting the controls.  Can you get me a copy of that proposed cirriculum?

Paul M. Reed
Col, USA(ret)
Former CAP Lt Col
Wilson #2777

ELTHunter

I'd be interested in that too.
Maj. Tim Waddell, CAP
SER-TN-170
Deputy Commander of Cadets
Emergency Services Officer

ctrossen

Likewise. I'd have to reinvent the wheel if someone's already done the inventing.
Chris Trossen, Lt Col, CAP
Agency Liaison
Wisconsin Wing

SJFedor

I'd love to see a copy of it as well, thanks!

Steven Fedor, NREMT-P
Master Ambulance Driver
Former Capt, MP, MCPE, MO, MS, GTL, and various other 3-and-4 letter combinations
NESA MAS Instructor, 2008-2010 (#479)

Pylon

Quote from: wawgcap on May 28, 2007, 04:58:26 PM
Washington Wing hold classes for Observers and has developed a curriculum for observers and scanners that has been sent to national for adoption.

I'd love to take a look at that, as well, if you have it available to you! 
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

CFI_Ed

Quote from: wawgcap on May 28, 2007, 04:58:26 PM
Washington Wing hold classes for Observers and has developed a curriculum for observers and scanners that has been sent to national for adoption.

I'd like to see the training info also.  Right now OK Wing has the Observer/Scanners taking the same class as the Pilots, but if there is something available that's easy for non-pilots to understand and use that would be great.
Ed Angala, Lt Col, CAP
Oklahoma Wing/DO

SAR-EMT1

Quote from: wawgcap on May 28, 2007, 04:58:26 PM
Washington Wing hold classes for Observers and has developed a curriculum for observers and scanners that has been sent to national for adoption.

Would love a copy if it wouldnt be too much trouble.
C. A. Edgar
AUX USCG Flotilla 8-8
Former CC / GLR-IL-328
Firefighter, Paramedic, Grad Student

flymore

I sent the entire G-1000 Observer training package to John Salvador, at his request about 3 months ago.
If anyone (Wing Aircrew Training Directors only please) wants a copy of the program, contact me at flymore@comcast.net with your address. I will send a copy of the program to you.
As I mentioned in a previous message, be prepared to spend some time on the sim before you get in front of a group.
Washington Wing (Seattle and Renton Squadrons) did in fact do the grunt work for national. Too bad they did not followup with the distribution.
Harlan Zentner, Director
WashingtonWing G-1000 Observer Training Director