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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: NCSA - not leaving the base
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2016, 03:39:36 PM »

I can see the CPP issue.

If I were planning an NCSA in the Chicago area for instance it would be nice to take the cadets to Millennium Park for an afternoon, maybe over to Buckingham Fountain.  Just a half a day to show them them the city.  It's clearly not what the NCSA is about or for but I think the cadets would come away with a different experience than if we stayed locked into the squadron/base all week. 

I know that not all the NCSA's are lucky enough to be somewhere the cadets would want to visit, but if they are I just think we should take advantage of it.

Then why not volunteer for an NCSA, spend a year or two getting the lay of the land, and then offer to facilitate such an outing? I can appreciate the sentiment - we should be encouraging cadets to get out and see the world around them. It just adds logistical hurdles - ones that could be overcome with motivated staff members and scheduling creativity.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2016, 03:54:11 PM »

The other thing is how much extra expense will it add?  Depending on when, where, and what, that adds extra cost to the NCSA that will need to be added to the cost of the event to cover the additional fuel expenditure.  While it may not be much, it should still be considered.  I know that for certain cadets, the money matters.
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husker
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« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2016, 04:01:25 PM »

From a supervisory and safety perspective, this is a nightmare.  One missing or injured cadet and the whole thing could
get shut down.

Agree wholeheartedly.  Though I have limited experience with other NCSAs, my experience with NESA (and several other types of activities) bears this out.  We are responsible for several hundred members each year, and even the small amount of "off post" time (some) members receive is difficult to manage.   It is a risk not easily mitigated.

Of course, as Space says, there isn't much to see in rural Indiana.  And this comes from someone who was raised in Nebraska, where the tallest thing for miles is a cow.
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xray328
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Unit: IL-189

« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2016, 08:46:11 PM »

I can see the CPP issue.

If I were planning an NCSA in the Chicago area for instance it would be nice to take the cadets to Millennium Park for an afternoon, maybe over to Buckingham Fountain.  Just a half a day to show them them the city.  It's clearly not what the NCSA is about or for but I think the cadets would come away with a different experience than if we stayed locked into the squadron/base all week. 

I know that not all the NCSA's are lucky enough to be somewhere the cadets would want to visit, but if they are I just think we should take advantage of it.

Then why not volunteer for an NCSA, spend a year or two getting the lay of the land, and then offer to facilitate such an outing? I can appreciate the sentiment - we should be encouraging cadets to get out and see the world around them. It just adds logistical hurdles - ones that could be overcome with motivated staff members and scheduling creativity.

Too much red tape, CAP puts up too many walls.  TBH it makes you not want to plan activities.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2016, 09:15:11 PM »

So just to foster the discussion, what are those cadets going to do at the beach?

If it's just "look at it", I don't see the point, if it's swimming, that pings my ORM needle so hard it breaks off.

****************************************************************

As to other types of attractions, the math and logistics are very difficult, unless you happen to be on
a facility that either has the attraction, or is sitting across the street (like say Wright-Patt, or the Smithsonian).

Touristy means $$$, especially in the summer which would be peak season for both NCSAs, and the touristy stuff
they'd want to see.  It also usually means long lines, which is a waste of everyone's time.

In most cases, the NCSA itself couldn't afford to be executed in the touristy area - to use the example of Chicago,
you're not going to get near downtown for hotel or meeting space, absent a benefactor of significant means, at a price that
makes the NCSA viable.  That means you're in the suburbs.

Chicago suburbs = 1+ hour travel time in each direction to get downtown, maybe more.  Lets say your NCSA is 25
cadets - that's going to take at least 3-4 or more COVs, assuming they are available.  Metra or CTA are potential options,
but not much cheaper, not much faster, and you're adding walking time when you get there.

The gas, parking, and meals all have to be added to the cost of the NCSA, I'd hazard a trip to see the Bean would add
$50 per cadet to the cost.

If you decide "not everyone goes", that might make things worse as you're now dividing an already thin staff even further.
(Few are the NCSAs or encampment with a bunch of extra staff just milling about.)

Then there's the issue of "when"?  Do that during the week, and you're artificially extending the activity for something
unrelated to the actual curriculum - that extra expense and time may put the activity out of reach - the time especially
being the more important factor.

"Well, how about after only for those who want to?"

After completion of the actual activity, especially for "optional" things, becomes a real challenge supervision-wise.

CAP activity staff(s) tend to dissolve before your eyes, quicker then you can say "dismissed" - the idea of a "trickle-out",
with the main intention being cadets scattered to non-CAP venues, is frankly terrifying.

It's one thing, I suppose, to consider the option for cadets to extend on their own if mom and dad fly out, or they
are over 18.  I guess people could do that regardless, but trying to get them to see the Needle, or Disney, or the Bean
just becomes a logistical nightmare to little advantage.

***********************************************************
Now the flipside, and something I have to remind myself for my own kids, is I am a jaded old man who
has BTDT, less then some but more then many. 

If you work in the touristy area, then the "thing", be it a tall building, casino, or shiny sculpture, is just in your
way, no matter how cool it might be.

My wife is always trying to plan trips, and my response far too often is "ugh...x again?" forgetting, Of course, 
that while I may have seen "x" to the point of apathy, she and the kids haven't ever been.

« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 09:19:37 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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xray328
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« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2016, 09:38:06 PM »

Thanks Eclipse, you make very valid points.


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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2016, 09:43:21 PM »

No one has mentioned specifics. Just a general "logistics nightmare."

A trip to the beach with cadets... You have to make sure there is a qualified lifesaver among other things... Did ya think of that?
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xray328
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Unit: IL-189

« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2016, 09:43:45 PM »

Maybe a "we're planning a sight seeing tour the day after if any cadets are interested for an additional $50"  Let them stay an extra day.


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« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 09:51:28 PM by xray328 » Logged
xray328
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2016, 09:44:22 PM »

E-Techs figured it out


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Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2016, 09:59:07 PM »



The BSA won't let you get into a still lake until you've had a supervised swim test, and for very good reason.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2016, 10:02:15 PM by Eclipse » Logged

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Spam
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« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2016, 11:56:00 PM »

We just got back from dropping my oldest off at Patrick AFB for Space Command Fam NCSA on Saturday. So far as activities go, its a FAR better content filled NCSA than eTech was at Auburn a couple of years ago where they ran out of engineering activities and padded it with a field trip to the Tuskeegee Airmen little museum.

At the SpaceCom Fam course, they're staying at an economy beachfront resort (decent rooms, good area - I inspected, as I used to work at Kennedy and lived in Brevard Co. for 5 years) with a pool, volleyball and bball courts, and have two hours free time at night. Having met their staff I'm quite confident in their ORM assessments and their capability to safely execute the program. They hit KSC yesterday, spent the day today in the VAB and launch pads, and presumably have been trusted to venture outside air conditioned carpeted spaces without alerting the Pentagon duty desk for clearance.

As for me, downtown Chicago seems far risker - it pegs MY own ORM meter, since they won't let me concealed carry in such a crime plagued area! (grin).

V/R
Spam


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Spam
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« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2016, 11:59:01 PM »

E-Techs figured it out


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"NOOOOOO, they stealin' mah bucketz!!!!!!"

Cheers
Spam

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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #32 on: June 21, 2016, 12:05:08 AM »

As for me, downtown Chicago seems far risker - it pegs MY own ORM meter, since they won't let me concealed carry in such a crime plagued area! (grin).

V/R
Spam


CCWs are all over Chicago...
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Spam
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« Reply #33 on: June 21, 2016, 12:19:23 AM »

I stand so corrected!
Well Done Chicago!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/24/chicago-crime-rate-drops-as-concealed-carry-gun-pe/

Thanks, near-Major!  ;D

V/R
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Eclipse
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« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2016, 12:56:09 AM »

To be fair, it's the not CCW most people have to be concerned about.  Those are likely
going to cause a bumper crop this year.

It's mostly in a few typically gang-heavy areas, but the problem w/ the Loop is that, like a lot of
other major cities, you can be walking through an area generally considered "safe", and one block
too far takes you into "unpleasantness".

For example the lakefront is generally considered pretty safe on the North ends, but much South
of McCormick Place things get dicey, and deity of choice help you if you wander a few blocks West of the area they
want to build Lucas' museum.

As someone who likes to wander on business trips, I've encountered a lot of "oh poop, this block
was a bad idea" moments.
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LSThiker
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« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2016, 09:54:46 AM »



The BSA won't let you get into a still lake until you've had a supervised swim test, and for very good reason.

Riptides are easy to get out of if you know how.  The problem is not the ability to swim, it is rather that most people do not know what to do.  I used to live on the ocean (as in step out my backdoor and there is the ocean) and would get caught in these all the time.  Depending on the day, either I would just let them take me out for fun or I would get out of them quickly.   Rip currents do not kill people, rather their action kills them.  Most people try to swim against the current, tiring, and then drown.  A supervised swim test is not necessary to escape a riptide.  Just a simple instruction on how to recognize them and what to do if caught in one.  Otherwise, enjoy your effortless ride on a rip current.         
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2016, 10:13:38 AM »



The BSA won't let you get into a still lake until you've had a supervised swim test, and for very good reason.

Riptides are easy to get out of if you know how.  The problem is not the ability to swim, it is rather that most people do not know what to do.  I used to live on the ocean (as in step out my backdoor and there is the ocean) and would get caught in these all the time.  Depending on the day, either I would just let them take me out for fun or I would get out of them quickly.   Rip currents do not kill people, rather their action kills them.  Most people try to swim against the current, tiring, and then drown.  A supervised swim test is not necessary to escape a riptide.  Just a simple instruction on how to recognize them and what to do if caught in one.  Otherwise, enjoy your effortless ride on a rip current.       


Any good online sources? Having experienced the pull in Mexico...it's not a pleasant situation to be in unprepared.
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LSThiker
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« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2016, 11:09:30 AM »

Any good online sources? Having experienced the pull in Mexico...it's not a pleasant situation to be in unprepared.

It is pretty easy actually:

1.  Do not panic (usually the first mistake by people)
2.  Do not try to swim against the current (second mistake by people)
3.  Determine the direction you are getting pulled (not always perpendicular to the shore)
4.  Swim perpendicular to the direction you are getting pulled (which is not always parallel to shore)
5.  Swim back to shore or let the waves take you back to shore

http://www.ripcurrents.noaa.gov/surviving.shtml
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Eclipse
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« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2016, 11:11:05 AM »

Riptides are easy to get out of if you know how.  The problem is not the ability to swim, it is rather that most people do not know what to do.

That's literally my point.

Some cadets from fly-over land-lockedville who have never seen an ocean or even a lake with currents running
into the ocean w/o instruction is high risk.

And what the heck is with those buckets?

Also, to the comment above, you're making the assumption they know how to swim.  CAP has no mechanism for
confirming that.  There are far too many adolescent these days who do not know how to swim,
let alone swim in a challenging current where the key is "don't panic".
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 11:14:18 AM by Eclipse » Logged

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LSThiker
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« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2016, 11:19:51 AM »

Also, to the comment above, you're making the assumption they know how to swim.  CAP has no mechanism for
confirming that.  There are far too many adolescent these days who do not know how to swim,
let alone swim in a challenging current where the key is "don't panic".

Not really making an assumption, I know the percentages:

Caucasians:  40%
Hispanic:  60%
African:  70%
Asian:  do not know.  no one likes to report on Asians :)

do not know how to swim. 
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Encampments & NCSAs  |  Topic: NCSA - not leaving the base
 


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