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Author Topic: Sunglasses as contraband  (Read 7266 times)
Cadetter
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« on: May 15, 2016, 04:19:11 PM »

For summer encampments, is it advisable for sunglasses to be contraband?

edited to delete identifying information
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 05:01:31 PM by Cadetter » Logged
Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2016, 04:29:43 PM »

Cadets show up with $200 Oakelys lose them and mom wants the encampment to pay.

If they aren't on the list, it's been considered. If there is a medical issue, it can be addressed as an exception.
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Cadetter
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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2016, 04:34:36 PM »

Hmm, but what about protection from sunlight?

Most cadets bring very, very cheap sunglasses.
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PA Guy
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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2016, 05:13:01 PM »

The exposure to sunlight at encampment is not severe enough to cause a problem with vision. Your hat has a visor that will protect the eyes that along with the time you spend  indoors in classes, barracks etc. mitigates any risk.



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JeffDG
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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2016, 05:18:19 PM »

Hmm, but what about protection from sunlight?
It's called a hat.
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NIN
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« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2016, 05:26:19 PM »

Cheap sunglasses are great (the $4 gas station ones, especially if they look the Sheriff Buford T. Justice Ray-Bans, are even cooler). Just not in formation without a documented medical need (had one of those once: a young man with albinism.  He literally had these Wiley-X looking bad boys on whenever he was outside, complete with a doctor's note).

Like jewelry or iPods, leave the expensive bling-bling at home.

You certainly do need them in some instances.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2016, 05:28:26 PM »

Young adults these days may not be aware the visor is to protect the vision since they wear the hat backwards...
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Cadetter
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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2016, 05:28:39 PM »

Hmm, but what about protection from sunlight?
It's called a hat.

Ha, true...

But seriously. The light reflecting from the ground, buildings, etc. is part of what I am talking about.

The exposure to sunlight at encampment is not severe enough to cause a problem with vision. Your hat has a visor that will protect the eyes that along with the time you spend  indoors in classes, barracks etc. mitigates any risk.

Some states have brighter summers than others. Also, spending several hours outside can indeed risk highly unnecessary sun exposure that can (and often does) cause cancer.

Cheap sunglasses are great (the $4 gas station ones, especially if they look the Sheriff Buford T. Justice Ray-Bans, are even cooler). Just not in formation without a documented medical need (had one of those once: a young man with albinism.  He literally had these Wiley-X looking bad boys on whenever he was outside, complete with a doctor's note).

Like jewelry or iPods, leave the expensive bling-bling at home.

You certainly do need them in some instances.

Cadet students spend most their time outside in a flight. Do all of them need doctors' notes to have the right of protecting themselves from accumulating sun exposure that can lead to cancer?
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abdsp51
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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2016, 05:30:58 PM »

Sunglasses are not even authorized in a formation.  Was a TO at AZ Wg's encampment in 2014 and no cadets had sunglasses.  If it's not on the list don't bring it. 

If there is a legit health issue parents need to address it through the CoC. 
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Cadetter
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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2016, 05:32:51 PM »

Forgot about that... silly me.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2016, 06:32:00 PM »

Now you're really stretching. Sunglasses do NOT, for the most part, protect you from skin cancer, the predominate UV-caused form of cancer. If the encampment head shed says no sunglasses, then no sunglasses.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2016, 07:04:59 PM »

Are you asking as a member of the Encampment Cadre working on the packing list?   Or are you just looking for justification for your personal opinion that sunglasses should be allowed?

Bottom line.....bring everything on the packing list......and nothing else.

As for the pro-con debate of allowing sunglasses on the list.

The slight protection that sunglasses afford from the hazards of UV radiation are greatly outweighed by the hassles of finding Little Jimmy's $300 Oaklies or having to tell some cadet (for the 15th time) to take their sunglasses off in formation/off their head/off their top button.

YMMV.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2016, 10:23:12 PM »

I'm merely cadet cadre, sir, (2nd time staffing), so I haven't any authority with the packing list. It is my personal opinion that sunglasses should be allowed, yes.

There are plenty of outside activities during encampment that are not conducted in formation (the majority, lately).

FWIW, I have medical reasons for sunglasses. IMO cadets should not be required to have notes for this though... not that I can change it (until, or unless, I end up encampment commander 20 years down the road :P)

Nonetheless, the caps are undoubtedly useful :)

edited again - where was my mind when typing
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 10:11:45 AM by Cadetter » Logged
abdsp51
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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2016, 10:46:45 PM »

I'm merely cadet cadre, sir, (2nd time staffing), so I haven't any authority with the packing list. It is my personal opinion that sunglasses should be allowed, yes.

There are plenty of outside activities during encampment that are not conducted in formation (the majority, lately).

FWIW, I have medical reasons for sunglasses (shall get a doctor's note shortly - in short, genetic tendencies to fight against). IMO cadets should not be required to have notes for this though... not that I can change it (until, or unless, I end up encampment commander 20 years down the road :P)

Nonetheless, the caps are undoubtedly useful :)

Even if you became encampment commander 20 years down the road the uniform reg and AFI says different.  If there is a legit reason to have them and wear them then a Dr's note should not be an issue.  If there isn't a legit reason then no they are not allowed and should not be allowed. 
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2016, 10:49:33 PM »

After 20 years, it may be possible the regs may have changed and sunglasses can be worn in formation...

 >:D

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PHall
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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2016, 10:53:12 PM »

After 20 years, it may be possible the regs may have changed and sunglasses can be worn in formation...

 >:D

I seriously doubt that.
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Cadetter
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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2016, 11:08:03 PM »

... which is true. But as mentioned in my last post, I was referring to non-formation activities ... hence, not applicable (unless there's some reg I'm missing forbidding sunglasses under ALL outdoor circumstances... even in unassigned PT pseudo-uniforms...) :D
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abdsp51
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2016, 11:13:44 PM »

... which is true. But as mentioned in my last post, I was referring to non-formation activities ... hence, not applicable (unless there's some reg I'm missing forbidding sunglasses under ALL outdoor circumstances... even in unassigned PT pseudo-uniforms...) :D

Again if it's not on the list don't bring it.  You as a second time staff member should know that since that packing list also applies to staff in most wings.
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Cadetter
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2016, 11:17:11 PM »

... which is true. But as mentioned in my last post, I was referring to non-formation activities ... hence, not applicable (unless there's some reg I'm missing forbidding sunglasses under ALL outdoor circumstances... even in unassigned PT pseudo-uniforms...) :D

Again if it's not on the list don't bring it.  You as a second time staff member should know that since that packing list also applies to staff in most wings.

Yes sir, I know it, follow it, and enforce it, and that doesn't preclude my opinion on what should change in the future  :angel:
And the quoted 'not applicable' referred to what, hypothetically, I might do if I ever am appointed an encampment commander (once I switch to the dark side)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 10:12:49 AM by Cadetter » Logged
SarDragon
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2016, 11:29:36 PM »

After 20 years, it may be possible the regs may have changed and sunglasses can be worn in formation...

 >:D

I seriously doubt that.

Agreed. Twenty years ago, we had essentially the same policy, and twenty years before that, and even another ten before that. It looks like no one has ever come up with a good enough reason to change the policy.

In non-formation activities, they are more of a distraction than an asset. BTDT. No shirt.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2016, 11:36:35 PM »

How are they a distraction, sir? I'm not contradicting you - I'm genuinely curious and haven't (yet!) experienced such :)
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2016, 11:40:46 PM »

Doubt that sunglasses may be allowed 20 years from now? Who knows?

From the First World War to shortly after the Second World War, the Army uniform included short, brown ankle length boots. Shortly before the Korean War, the boots changed to black tall boots. Then boots changed to different colors. Back to brown, green suede boots, etc. I am not going to try to talk about the changes in styles of uniforms, it would take me too long.

What about pens? "No visible pens on any uniform." Now you can wear pens on the ABU?

I do not work with Color Guards, so I am not aware of their regs. However I heard they are allowed to wear sunglasses during duty hours.

No one would have ever bet on those changes.

I don't care one way or the other. But never say never...

Who knows about regulations re sunglasses? They may change, they may not. But as we all know, military regs do change.

 ::)
« Last Edit: May 15, 2016, 11:45:31 PM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged

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Mordecai
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« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2016, 11:42:06 PM »

How are they a distraction, sir? I'm not contradicting you - I'm genuinely curious and haven't (yet!) experienced such :)

1. Someone loses their sunglasses. They are now trying to find their sunglasses or thinking about their lost sunglasses in a formation.
2. Your PAO goes to post a picture on facebook of the formation you are in. Everyone looks good... except the guy with the sunglasses on his hat/hanging from his shirt/worn on his face. PAO has to discard the image.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2016, 11:42:32 PM »

How are they a distraction, sir? I'm not contradicting you - I'm genuinely curious and haven't (yet!) experienced such :)

You're the why kid aren't you??   You've been given good sound reasons why they are not allowed and it goes against your opinion.  Learn early on when to pick a fight and when not too and this is not one to pick.
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Cadetter
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« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2016, 11:46:18 PM »

Good points :P

How are they a distraction, sir? I'm not contradicting you - I'm genuinely curious and haven't (yet!) experienced such :)

You're the why kid aren't you??   You've been given good sound reasons why they are not allowed and it goes against your opinion.  Learn early on when to pick a fight and when not too and this is not one to pick.

Good reasons are in the eye of the beholder, sir. One does not have to approve of reasons in order to follow them... and yes, unfortunately, that is my tendency (and the focus of most review sessions)... have improved a bit...
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spaatzmom
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« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2016, 11:49:25 PM »

I remember several years ago when my son was but a wee cadet attending his first encampment, being stopped at least three times from the parking lot to the building entrance before even getting to check in regarding his "sunglasses".  We were told each time sunglasses were not allowed, each time the response was they are not sunglasses.  Finally we got to check in and again sunglasses are not allowed, again they are not sunglasses.  Well you can't wear them.  Ok, then who is going to watch him so he doesn't run into things?  They are prescription glasses with transition lenses.  We live in Florida and between the sun and glare off of windows, ground, and water he needed this type of lens.  They were listed on the 31 which the director approved, so he and his glasses stayed.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 12:00:33 AM by spaatzmom » Logged
abdsp51
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« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2016, 11:56:57 PM »

Good points :P

How are they a distraction, sir? I'm not contradicting you - I'm genuinely curious and haven't (yet!) experienced such :)

You're the why kid aren't you??   You've been given good sound reasons why they are not allowed and it goes against your opinion.  Learn early on when to pick a fight and when not too and this is not one to pick.

Good reasons are in the eye of the beholder, sir. One does not have to approve of reasons in order to follow them... and yes, unfortunately, that is my tendency (and the focus of most review sessions)... have improved a bit...
[/quote

The majority of the posters here are in concurrence with it.  Big flag this is not something to fight against.  They are good, sound and legit reasons.  Let this dog lie.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2016, 11:58:04 PM »

Good points :P

How are they a distraction, sir? I'm not contradicting you - I'm genuinely curious and haven't (yet!) experienced such :)

You're the why kid aren't you??   You've been given good sound reasons why they are not allowed and it goes against your opinion.  Learn early on when to pick a fight and when not too and this is not one to pick.

Good reasons are in the eye of the beholder, sir. One does not have to approve of reasons in order to follow them... and yes, unfortunately, that is my tendency (and the focus of most review sessions)... have improved a bit...

The majority of the posters here are in concurrence with it.  Big flag this is not something to fight against.  They are good, sound and legit reasons.  Let this dog lie.
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Cadetter
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« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2016, 12:31:02 AM »

Appeal to the masses is rarely the way to convince me, foolish though I may be.

I already have acknowledged the soundness of the reasons anyway... and I still hope for minor change YEARS from now (when one would hope, I've gained critical thinking skills and maturity). Not sure what you're getting at. (Except of course the forever harsh tone when speaking with cadets on this board, and a cadet's unfitness to question reason.)
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lordmonar
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« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2016, 12:37:53 AM »

Appeal to the masses is rarely the way to convince me, foolish though I may be.

I already have acknowledged the soundness of the reasons anyway... and I still hope for minor change YEARS from now (when one would hope, I've gained critical thinking skills and maturity). Not sure what you're getting at. (Except of course the forever harsh tone when speaking with cadets on this board, and a cadet's unfitness to question reason.)
So....why are you arguing?

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2016, 12:47:06 AM »

I'm not, sir... well, it wasn't my intention... The most recent post I've even said on the topic was curiosity due to my lack of experience... that's a far cry from arguing.

I shall return to under my non-posting rock.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 01:07:02 AM by Cadetter » Logged
PA Guy
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« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2016, 01:45:14 AM »

Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Everyone gets it, you don't like the no sunglasses thing. The world is full of things you won't like and who told you the world is fair? What you call questioning is thinly veiled quibbling. So suck it up and move on. No one is putting you down they are simply trying to ans your question while you continue to quibble.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2016, 02:30:08 AM »

How are they a distraction, sir? I'm not contradicting you - I'm genuinely curious and haven't (yet!) experienced such :)

Primarily worrying about where they are, or worrying about retaining them on your person, either on your face, or your chosen storage place.

As for this:
Appeal to the masses is rarely the way to convince me, foolish though I may be.

I already have acknowledged the soundness of the reasons anyway... and I still hope for minor change YEARS from now (when one would hope, I've gained critical thinking skills and maturity). Not sure what you're getting at. (Except of course the forever harsh tone when speaking with cadets on this board, and a cadet's unfitness to question reason.)

The harsh tone comes from having your attitude of insisting on being right, despite evidence to the contrary. As for unfitness to  question reason, you took it too far. You asked a question, got several good answers, and continued to question them. Just because you don't like the responses doesn't make them wrong. The reg says no sunglasses in formation. The encampment commander has banned them outright. Get over it. You have more important and productive things to spend your time on.

Regarding the commentary on Transitions® lenses, I have them in my glasses. They do not get as dark as most sunglasses. Since they are prescription lenses, I wear them whenever I am awake - first thing on when I get out of bed, and last thing off before retiring. Even when I was on active duty, I never had issues about wearing them anywhere, even in formation.
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Dave Bowles
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spaatzmom
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« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2016, 04:19:16 AM »

 

Regarding the commentary on Transitions® lenses, I have them in my glasses. They do not get as dark as most sunglasses. Since they are prescription lenses, I wear them whenever I am awake - first thing on when I get out of bed, and last thing off before retiring. Even when I was on active duty, I never had issues about wearing them anywhere, even in formation.
[/quote]

Not sure which "edition" if you will of the transition lenses they were; but they got quite dark when they were on the newer side, enough so that they were questioned often.  Later he got photo grey lenses and the older they were the darker they got, just the opposite of the transition lenses.

Anyway, as long as they are doctor ordered, listed on the 31 and approved by the event commander there should be no problem.

As to the I believe OP, you have received the appropriate and correct answers as it stands now within CAP and that is all that matters what is allowed now.  I am sorry it does not fit with your agenda,but it is what it is.  Now is the time to stop beating that dead horse and move on.
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NIN
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« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2016, 06:52:46 AM »

I remember several years ago when my son was but a wee cadet attending his first encampment, being stopped at least three times from the parking lot to the building entrance before even getting to check in regarding his "sunglasses".  We were told each time sunglasses were not allowed, each time the response was they are not sunglasses.  Finally we got to check in and again sunglasses are not allowed, again they are not sunglasses.  Well you can't wear them.  Ok, then who is going to watch him so he doesn't run into things?  They are prescription glasses with transition lenses.  We live in Florida and between the sun and glare off of windows, ground, and water he needed this type of lens.  They were listed on the 31 which the director approved, so he and his glasses stayed.

Who the heck holds an encampment in Florida and doesn't allow sunglasses?  Ugh.  <facepalm>

This is like the whole "take their watches away" thing. Seriously.

Sunglasses are not allowed in formation. Beyond that, if a cadet wants to wear sunglasses while on the flight line at the Air Force base with all the glare, hey, you got 'em, wear 'em.

"Sir, I lost my sunglasses."

"Well, I guess you'll have to squint now, troop.  Next time, you'll do a better job of keeping control of your personal gear, won't you?"



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Cadetter
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« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2016, 09:32:49 AM »

Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Everyone gets it, you don't like the no sunglasses thing. The world is full of things you won't like and who told you the world is fair? What you call questioning is thinly veiled quibbling. So suck it up and move on. No one is putting you down they are simply trying to ans your question while you continue to quibble.

Was intending not to post, but of course... everyone gets it, as unanimously agreed...

Who the heck holds an encampment in Florida and doesn't allow sunglasses?  Ugh.  <facepalm>

This is like the whole "take their watches away" thing. Seriously.

Sunglasses are not allowed in formation. Beyond that, if a cadet wants to wear sunglasses while on the flight line at the Air Force base with all the glare, hey, you got 'em, wear 'em.

Yep, no reason whatever to want sunglasses to be allowed.

Nonetheless, the caps are undoubtedly useful :)

Quibbling? Only responding to: hypothetical scenarios, statement sparking curiosity (wanted more reason against sunglasses, too), and the decree that I must accept others' opinion (which I already did) after this part.

The harsh tone comes from having your attitude of insisting on being right, despite evidence to the contrary. As for unfitness to  question reason, you took it too far. You asked a question, got several good answers, and continued to question them. Just because you don't like the responses doesn't make them wrong. The reg says no sunglasses in formation. The encampment commander has banned them outright. Get over it. You have more important and productive things to spend your time on.

My last "quibbling" post on the topic was around 20-25 posts ago.

As to the I believe OP, you have received the appropriate and correct answers as it stands now within CAP and that is all that matters what is allowed now.  I am sorry it does not fit with your agenda,but it is what it is.  Now is the time to stop beating that dead horse and move on.

... agenda? Now asking "why" is an agenda, ma'am. Got it... I wanted arguments against sunglasses, and I got them... that was my only agenda. And now, if I don't agree with them (hey, I do agree!) I should just go away because I
Quote
have more important and productive things to spend your time on.
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vorteks
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« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2016, 10:00:08 AM »

Yes sir, I know it, follow it, and enforce it, and that doesn't preclude my opinion on what should change in the future  :angel:
And the quoted 'not applicable' referred to what, hypothetically, I might do if I ever am appointed an encampment commander (once I switch to the dark side in six years)

No way you're 12 or 15 years old. Knock off the trolling.
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Cadetter
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« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2016, 10:00:48 AM »

... not sure what that means, anyway.

I apologize for the lip, all - reading back my posts, it was (unintentionally) present.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2016, 10:08:49 AM by Cadetter » Logged
AirAux
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« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2016, 11:26:56 AM »

Actually, sunglasses do help prevent cataracts, the number one cause of blindness in the world....
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Eclipse
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« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2016, 11:34:56 AM »

USAF BMT is in San Antonio, TX.

San Antonio, TX experiences 7% more "sunny" days then the national average.

San Antonio, TX has a ~31% higher UV index then the national average.

New airmen are not issue sunglasses in BMT, and a medical condition which would require such a waiver
would probably preclude an applicant from enlisting.

The week you spend in encampment will have zero effect on your eyesight, skin condition, or anything
else when compared to your lifetime exposure.
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vorteks
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« Reply #40 on: May 16, 2016, 12:14:19 PM »

... not sure what that means, anyway.

I apologize for the lip, all - reading back my posts, it was (unintentionally) present.

No way a teenager doesn't know what trolling means in this day and age.
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jenidlg
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« Reply #41 on: May 16, 2016, 12:48:52 PM »

I think it is important to note that all decisions involving encampments and other CAP activities are reviewed for the safety and health of the cadets, probably before most other things are done.  Issues like these (sunglasses, color of swimsuits) are considered, reviewed and looked at by the people who understand the circumstances involved and have the knowledge and experience to make good decisions (safety officers, wing commanders, past encampment commanders).

As an encampment commander myself this year, I'm slightly frustrated with the amount of time I've had to spend justifying my decisions to cadets.  My instinct is to say, "if you don't like how it's being run, don't come" but the reality is, there will always be people who don't like the rules that are set and we'll always have to spend time explaining ourselves to them.  Welcome to a volunteer organization.   :D
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« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2016, 03:56:10 PM »

Not sure why I can't be 15 (or almost 14... well, duh, this is my 3rd encampment, so I can't be 12), varitec. Of course I know what trolling is :P (and have done it in the past)...
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PA Guy
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« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2016, 06:29:01 PM »

Actually, sunglasses do help prevent cataracts, the number one cause of blindness in the world....

From a medical standpoint the typical encampment does not offer enough UV exposure to have any effect on cataract formation.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #44 on: May 16, 2016, 06:36:13 PM »

PA,

Is not cataract formation cumulative? I thought it was...

1 hour here, 10 hours at the encampment, 5 hours during O-flights... and to say nothing about his home exposure...
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2016, 07:10:33 PM »

Now you're really stretching. Sunglasses do NOT, for the most part, protect you from skin cancer, the predominate UV-caused form of cancer. If the encampment head shed says no sunglasses, then no sunglasses.

Sunglasses do, however, reduce the likelihood of long term issues with eye health.  It is a small stretch re: skin cancer, though they do reduce exposure of the skin around the eyes that are difficult to safely slather with sun block.

I think the discussion of $200 or $400 dollar glasses is a red herring.  If the glasses are Rx, end of discussion.  They are medically required. 
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« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2016, 07:25:13 PM »

PA,

Is not cataract formation cumulative? I thought it was...

1 hour here, 10 hours at the encampment, 5 hours during O-flights... and to say nothing about his home exposure...

Agree.  It is cumulative damage that contributes to cataracts.  At least that's what my ophthalmologist tells me.  As far as "O" flights are concerned, we gain enough altitude to expose our eyes to a lot of UV.  It is possible to sunburn the orbs at 5K and above, and it's not pleasant.  I advise cadets to bring a good pair of sun glasses on every "O" flight. 

That said, the Rx sun glasses are like any other personal item.  It's up to the cadet to keep track of them. 

The NESA photo files are interesting.  Quite a lot of SR members have sun glasses.  What's the rationale for allowing old eyes some protection from the sun, but prohibiting cadets from protecting their long term prospects for good vision?
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« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2016, 08:13:17 PM »

O Rides, NESA, and just about anything else is NOT encampment, where uniformity and attention to details like packing lists
is an important aspect.
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« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2016, 08:33:52 PM »

Indeed, sir. Although safety is important regardless. (But judgements as to what is safe and what is not differ)
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« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2016, 09:03:36 PM »

Indeed, sir. Although safety is important regardless. (But judgements as to what is safe and what is not differ)


Lets see. I'm 26 years, 3 months, and some days old. I've worn sun glasses at encampment zero times in 8 encampments. I've worn sun glasses during my life maybe a few hundred days? That might be too high. Not blind yet, in fact my vision now is better than 2 years ago.
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« Reply #50 on: May 16, 2016, 09:18:07 PM »

Capt, like I said, effects on vision is cumulative. At 26, you are too young to see the effects of such cumulation.

It is like hearing loss. If you are assigned to an artillery battery, are you not told to use hearing protection when firing those guns? Are you not told to protect your hearing in other ways?

At 26, or 36 you may still be too young to feel the effects of those barrages you fired yesterday or a week ago. But hearing loss at a later age compared with others at that later age can be attributed to those earlier barrages...

 ???
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« Reply #51 on: May 16, 2016, 09:29:10 PM »

Capt, like I said, effects on vision is cumulative. At 26, you are too young to see the effects of such cumulation.

It is like hearing loss. If you are assigned to an artillery battery, are you not told to use hearing protection when firing those guns? Are you not told to protect your hearing in other ways?

At 26, or 36 you may still be too young to feel the effects of those barrages you fired yesterday or a week ago. But hearing loss at a later age compared with others at that later age can be attributed to those earlier barrages...

 ???

Thats like comparing apples and rocks. Firing off 1,000's of, 105mm or better, rounds versus standing in formation with cool guy sunglasses on is another. We might have the cadets try wearing their patrol cap correctly, it should block the sun just fine to meet safety requirements for shielding their eyes from the bright sun. Another tip is NOT to have them looking directly into the sun wondering what is going on back home. Just a thought
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« Reply #52 on: May 16, 2016, 09:50:11 PM »

Just several thoughts.

It is not comparing apples and oranges. The results of both effects is the sum.

You can get 10 (loss of a sense) whether you add 5+5 (artillery) or 6+4 (UV).

And you get UV on your eye several ways, not just "looking at the sun."

1. You get UV on your eye by reflection from ground.
2. Encampments are held in military bases and air bases. Where there are no trees, or trees have been cut.
3. UV is reflected from runways.
4. UV is reflected from the dry, whitish ground.
5. UV is coming not only from the sun but the effect of no trees around to help shield.
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« Reply #53 on: May 16, 2016, 10:10:50 PM »

Or this

1) Sunglasses not on packing list AKA contraband
2) Sunglasses not allowed in formation (cadets spend a lot of time in formation at encampment)
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« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2016, 10:45:40 PM »

Sunglasses should be one of those things where cadet personal safety trumps the regs, for CAP purposes anyways. I'm always miserable when I'm outside in any bright weather without my sunglasses, and I don't want issues 30 years down the road because I wasn't allowed to wear them. Patrol caps are not good for protection from anything other than direct sunlight in your face, and you still have to contend with the multiple other ways the UV can get to your eyes (reflection, etc). We let them wear multitudes of different hydration systems, outer garments (cold weather), and other non-uniform uniform items, and nobody is up in arms about that looking unprofessional. CAP is not the military, and while we should try to match the Air Force closely in certain respects there are things which we can (or should) deviate from since encampment is not supposed to be like BMT where your individuality is stripped from you and you're rebuilt into a warfighter from the ground up.
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« Reply #55 on: May 16, 2016, 11:11:51 PM »

Here is my ultimate, not very humble, opinion about sunglasses: Unless you can specifically point it out in a regulation that allows it, they are not allowed. 2) I am sure that someone in charge will follow this regulation to the letter and will enforce the "no sunglasses" regulation when at encampment. 3) Standing on a soap box and complaining how opposed you are to this regulation on this forum will solve nothing. 4) If you want to see this regulation changed, research the common causes of cataracts and eye injury due to long term, direct exposer to the sun, the actual medically recommended fix for limiting exposer and damage, and submit your findings and results to NHQ's. Who knows, with a little bit of work, the regulation might get changed.
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« Reply #56 on: May 16, 2016, 11:29:15 PM »

PA,

Is not cataract formation cumulative? I thought it was...

1 hour here, 10 hours at the encampment, 5 hours during O-flights... and to say nothing about his home exposure...

Yes, it is cumulative over a life time. The typical CAP encampment does not have a significant impact. If the encampment is being run according to the current regulation outdoor UV is limited. Cadets are not exposed to direct sunlight from sunrise to sunset. Remember, we are talking about cumulative exposure over a lifetime. Don't be obtuse.
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« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2016, 11:33:08 PM »

Now you're really stretching. Sunglasses do NOT, for the most part, protect you from skin cancer, the predominate UV-caused form of cancer. If the encampment head shed says no sunglasses, then no sunglasses.

Sunglasses do, however, reduce the likelihood of long term issues with eye health.  It is a small stretch re: skin cancer, though they do reduce exposure of the skin around the eyes that are difficult to safely slather with sun block.

I think the discussion of $200 or $400 dollar glasses is a red herring.  If the glasses are Rx, end of discussion.  They are medically required.

If they are medically required accompanied by a note it is a done deal. Medically required is not the issue.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #58 on: May 16, 2016, 11:35:01 PM »

PA, you are the obtuse one! I was the one that pointed the cumulative effect!

Add encampments, you add to the cumulation. By them selves alone, it is as you state. No discernible effect.

However the discussion has morphed from "sunglasses may be allowed in 20 years" to "has to be done now."

As previously stated, follow the packing list. Follow regs. Now it is not allowed. So do not wear them.

 ;)
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« Reply #59 on: May 17, 2016, 01:34:14 AM »

PA, you are the obtuse one! I was the one that pointed the cumulative effect!

Add encampments, you add to the cumulation. By them selves alone, it is as you state. No discernible effect.

However the discussion has morphed from "sunglasses may be allowed in 20 years" to "has to be done now."

As previously stated, follow the packing list. Follow regs. Now it is not allowed. So do not wear them.

 

I wonder what the sitindoorsandgame vs gooutsideandplay impact is.
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« Reply #60 on: May 17, 2016, 09:08:58 PM »

Its funny, I just surfed around to a dozen or so encampment websites and looked at their packing lists.

Only 3 had sunglasses on the prohibited list (I liked the one where sunglasses were prohibited for students, but A-OK for cadre).  3-4 had sunglasses right there on the sheet as optional items. And the rest didn't say one way or another.

I realize that's not statistical in any way.

(Side note: it was funny to read different wing's requirements for things: shorts, hygiene items, camelbacks, etc.  I'm *still* amazed at the wings that refuse to allow students to wear watches. Apparently cadet staff make better time management devices...)

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« Reply #61 on: May 17, 2016, 09:42:19 PM »

Its funny, I just surfed around to a dozen or so encampment websites and looked at their packing lists.

Only 3 had sunglasses on the prohibited list (I liked the one where sunglasses were prohibited for students, but A-OK for cadre).  3-4 had sunglasses right there on the sheet as optional items. And the rest didn't say one way or another.

I realize that's not statistical in any way.

(Side note: it was funny to read different wing's requirements for things: shorts, hygiene items, camelbacks, etc.  I'm *still* amazed at the wings that refuse to allow students to wear watches. Apparently cadet staff make better time management devices...)

No, it is probably their "I'm more cool than you" shades.
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« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2016, 01:19:38 AM »

I'm *still* amazed at the wings that refuse to allow students to wear watches. Apparently cadet staff make better time management devices...)

New guide says you can't ban watches anymore.
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« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2016, 02:04:27 AM »

I'm *still* amazed at the wings that refuse to allow students to wear watches. Apparently cadet staff make better time management devices...)

New guide says you can't ban watches anymore.

Haven't been able to since 2014 when the new guide as started to be put in use.  It caused some grief among the cadet staff initially, but it worked it out in the end. 
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« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2016, 06:41:58 AM »

Haven't been able to since 2014 when the new guide as started to be put in use.  It caused some grief among the cadet staff initially, but it worked it out in the end.

That was kinda-sorta my point.

Time management skills are an important part of encampment. Hard to learn/exercise those skills when you don't have a watch. The flight sergeant telling 15 cadets what time it is doesn't help when you tell the cadets "ok, 30 minutes to clean up your barracks and make your bunks."  They need to learn how to apportion their time like young adults, and using a watch is part of that.
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« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2016, 12:06:46 PM »

Hmmm.  Sounds like the guide also needs to say you can't ban sunglasses, except in formation or at other times specified by the commander.

(Makes note, puts in file for next revision. . . )
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« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2016, 12:26:52 PM »

Hmmm.  Sounds like the guide also needs to say you can't ban sunglasses, except in formation or at other times specified by the commander.

(Makes note, puts in file for next revision. . . )

Best to also define sunglasses vs transitional prescription glasses
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« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2016, 12:29:42 PM »

... but if it's at other times specified by the commander, the commander can just ban them at all times, right? ;D
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« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2016, 12:47:05 PM »

Ok, since we're not allowing cadets to ask for reasons for our decisions, and since I'm an encampment commander, I'll ask.

Why don't we allow sunglasses at encampment?

Pens and books and other cadets can be distractions at encampment, so the potential risk of distraction is apparently not a reason for disallowing things.

I'm ok if you label me the "Why Encampment Commander".
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« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2016, 12:53:10 PM »

They aren't as the required cap provides enough protection.

Beyond that, as the CC, you can allow them.
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« Reply #70 on: May 19, 2016, 01:04:58 PM »

They aren't as the required cap provides enough protection.

Beyond that, as the CC, you can allow them.

You are suggesting that they be contraband because they are not required to protect cadets' faces from sunlight, is that correct?
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« Reply #71 on: May 19, 2016, 01:51:40 PM »

Cadet Cadetter,

When you become an encampment commander - or at least a CAP senior member - I hope you encourage your cadets to ask "why". We are in a leadership training program and it's important for leaders to learn how and when to question the organization. Just understand that sometimes it's not appropriate to ask why until after the crisis has passed.

Your encampment commander may or may not have a reason you consider valid - it's within his or her discretion to list sunglasses as contraband. The CAPP 52-24 explains the "why" for most classes of contraband.

If you ask "why" you'll likely receive some gruff responses, not just from CAP but from any organization that has been around for a while. Asking why can challenge long-held assumptions and deeply seated beliefs. Use caution, and always be respectful. But think for yourself and decide what you'll do when you have the authority and responsibility. Keep a flexible mind though, because you may decide that you don't like the decision 20-years-ago predicted you would make.

As encampment commander, I do not list sunglasses as contraband. However, I know that if our cadets wear mirrored sunglasses or push their sunglasses up on their heads, either I or my cadre will have to correct them. I also know I may have to answer an angry parent email if Cadet Jimmy loses his $300 Oakleys (yes, they often blame us), and if a picture of a cadet in mirrored glasses leaks out to the social media one of the first questions people ask will be "who's in charge there, and why are they allowing them to violate CAPM 39-1!"

Therefore, I don't blame other encampment commanders for listing sunglasses as contraband.

I hope this helps. By the way, I hope you are familiar with CAPP 52-24, but here is paragraph 2.7, Contraband Shakedown (emphasis mine):

Quote
One of the first tasks needing to be accomplished shortly after the cadets’ arrival is the contraband shakedown. The purpose of a luggage inspection or shakedown is for the senior staff, as responsible adult chaperones, to verify that each cadet possesses all required gear. Additionally, the senior staff verifies that no cadet has access to material that is undesirable for the learning environment, morally inappropriate for a youth activity, or a safety hazard. The senior staff conducts the contraband shakedown in the presence of each individual cadet, one-on-one. (Cadet cadre will be subject to contraband shakedowns, just as the students.)

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« Reply #72 on: May 19, 2016, 01:58:53 PM »

Easy fix: hit up the local Dollar Tree Deals, get a couple hundred pair of the same plain black sunglasses. That way, everybody has the same ones, nobody is losing the mythical $300 Oakleys, and little Johnny's peepers are protected...
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« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2016, 02:02:04 PM »

And that $200 comes from where, exactly?
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« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2016, 02:05:57 PM »

And that $200 comes from where, exactly?

Plenty of sources.
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« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2016, 02:10:55 PM »

And that $200 comes from where, exactly?

Like NIN said, plenty of places. If you can't find a buck out of each participants tuition, you might want to really reevaluate your spending. Before you go off on the list of things that go into an encampment, I've been there. I've also found ways to cut spending, reallocate resources and shop vendors to negotiate pricing. There are ways to do it, just exercise some creative thinking.
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« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2016, 02:37:55 PM »

Honestly, I could not care less about sunglasses either way - they aren't on the equipment or contraband list
of the encampment I have been affiliated with, and we do have cadets wearing them on occasion.

It's a flavor call by the encampment CC, nothing more or less - health concerns, absent a verifiable medical
condition, aren't relevent to the discussion.
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« Reply #77 on: May 19, 2016, 02:58:07 PM »

Honestly, I could not care less about sunglasses either way - they aren't on the equipment or contraband list
of the encampment I have been affiliated with, and we do have cadets wearing them on occasion.

It's a flavor call by the encampment CC, nothing more or less - health concerns, absent a verifiable medical
condition, aren't relevent to the discussion.

What he said :clap:
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« Reply #78 on: May 19, 2016, 04:41:51 PM »

Haven't checked into CAPTalk for a couple days now, and I glance at the recent topics and what do I find? Four pages. About sunglasses. Seems legit.
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« Reply #79 on: May 19, 2016, 05:09:53 PM »

Need a different topic to derail this one...

Anyone, suggest something...

 :-X
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« Reply #80 on: May 19, 2016, 07:40:58 PM »

Need a different topic to derail this one...

Anyone, suggest something...

 :-X

How 'bout them ABU's?
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« Reply #81 on: May 19, 2016, 07:52:06 PM »

Methinks that the hands on the lock down clock are now spinning like a fan.
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« Reply #82 on: May 19, 2016, 07:53:17 PM »

Methinks that the hands on the lock down clock are now spinning like a fan.


It's a slow news day, they'll wait. >:D
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« Reply #83 on: May 19, 2016, 08:35:01 PM »

I think that talking about the ABU is better than the so-called lockdown fan.

We were talking about a slightly related uniform item. Now we have to move the topic away from "slightly related" to "fully related" since we move from "fully uniform related" to "non-uniform related" or "slightly uniform related."

So anyone wants to rehash what has been discussed in about a hundred other ABU threads in this one?

There are three main subtopics.

1. Winter weight of the ABU and RABU, or why we should state there are no RABUs;
2. Suede green boots vs black boots;
3. Supplying ABUs to a unit.

 >:D


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« Reply #84 on: May 20, 2016, 01:32:11 AM »

It's not a fan, it's a clock.



And it's ticking.
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« Reply #85 on: May 20, 2016, 09:54:05 AM »

Lockdown clock? Did I miss something? Perhaps a quick TL;DR?
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« Reply #86 on: May 20, 2016, 10:07:40 AM »

Lockdown clock? Did I miss something? Perhaps a quick TL;DR?

The time before mods lock this thread for being of no further use to the actual topic.
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« Reply #87 on: May 20, 2016, 10:10:59 AM »

Lockdown clock? Did I miss something? Perhaps a quick TL;DR?

The time before mods lock this thread for being of no further use to the actual topic.

Ah, makes sense.  In my experience, the clock is more like the creation of canyons: it takes millions of years to tick. (my opinion)
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« Reply #88 on: May 20, 2016, 01:34:03 PM »

When you become an encampment commander - or at least a CAP senior member - I hope you encourage your cadets to ask "why". We are in a leadership training program and it's important for leaders to learn how and when to question the organization. Just understand that sometimes it's not appropriate to ask why until after the crisis has passed.

Yes sir, I would certainly hope to help cadets learn how to ask "why" (at least, how to ask it better than me). Thanks  :clap:

Quote
By the way, I hope you are familiar with CAPP 52-24

Have only read it five times, so not quite familiar... but true.

(And yes, what I will or will not think decades from now is up for grabs :) )

P.S. My squadron won't be issuing ABUs for a while yet.
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