CAP Passengers on Proficiency Flights?

[Blanding]

As a reminder, this was the original question:

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

No one has yet provided any evidence to support the notion that this is a prohibited request. All I've seen is a lot of "that would be discouraged" - yet there is no conceivable reason why it should be discouraged. It's within CPP, it's in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and it promotes our aerospace mission.

While I haven't seen anything in the regulation prohibiting it, I also haven't see anything authorizing it. This question should be addressed through the chain of command to be on the safe side.

CAPR 60-1 (3-May-14):
"2-3. Passenger Requirements. Authorized passengers are current CAP members whose category of membership allows them to ride in corporate aircraft as specified in CAPR 39-2

f. Only pilots that are qualified as CAP instructors, cadet and ROTC/JROTC orientation
pilots, SAR/DR or transport mission pilots (during supervised missions) may carry CAP cadets
as passengers or crew members.

g. Aircraft will not carry CAP or ROTC/JROTC cadets on board during the first 10
tachometer hours following an engine change, major overhaul, or replacement of cylinders or
magnetos.

CAPR 52-10 (1-Oct-14):

"d. Two-Deep Leadership. CAP's general policy is that every cadet activity must be supervised by at least two adult leaders who are in "Approved" status in eServices (see CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership). "

Therefore, it is acceptable because:

1) CAP Cadets are authorized passengers in CAP aircraft
2) The pilot asking the question is a qualified orientation flight pilot
3) The aircraft in question (I assume) has not had recent maintenance preventing a cadet from being on board
4) The flight is supervised by two adult leaders who are in approved status in eServices

Note that cadets can be mission scanners and observers also... How else would they earn those ratings if not for proficiency / training flying? Since cadets are not allowed to fly other cadets, SMs are required to fly cadets outside the O-Flight curriculum for this to happen. It's up to the pilot to adhere to CPP rules, but it can be done.

Cadets must be at least 18 years old to train as CAP aircrew members. Cadets under 18 years old must have authorization from the wing commander to do flight training.

A cadet over 18 is still a cadet - mission training is a great way to allow cadets who can't fly orientation flights into the air, but they're still cadets. They are still protected by CPP, and thus would require the other SM to be part of the crew. Flight training is not the subject of the original poster's question.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Cadets over 18 have to abide by CPP just like SMs...

[Eclipse]

We've literally addressed every one of those points, several times.

Being "legal" doesn't make it a "good idea".  The CPT is clear about that.

This has nothing to do with mission training, this started as a member asking if he could bring cadets along on self-funded flying.

The answer is "yes", at your own risk, and you're not allowed to do it by yourself, since while you can fly the sortie 1-1, you can't meet them, arrange the flight,
or otherwise be in contact with them 1-1, that is not negotiable, nor unclear.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® will not change the fact that it's not a best practice.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your edge-case and skirting the regulations needs!

[THRAWN]

We've literally addressed every one of those points, several times.

Being "legal" doesn't make it a "good idea".  The CPT is clear about that.

This has nothing to do with mission training, this started as a member asking if he could bring cadets along on self-funded flying.

The answer is "yes", at your own risk, and you're not allowed to do it by yourself, since while you can fly the sortie 1-1, you can't meet them, arrange the flight,
or otherwise be in contact with them 1-1, that is not negotiable, nor unclear.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® will not change the fact that it's not a best practice.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your edge-case and skirting the regulations needs!

I am interested in your message and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Storm Chaser]

As a reminder, this was the original question:

Oh for sure. I didn't mean just me and one Cadet. But if me and another senior are out on a Proficiency Flight, can a Cadet go along, and could they ride front seat without it counting against their 5 official O-Rides.

No one has yet provided any evidence to support the notion that this is a prohibited request. All I've seen is a lot of "that would be discouraged" - yet there is no conceivable reason why it should be discouraged. It's within CPP, it's in accordance with CAPR 60-1 and it promotes our aerospace mission.

While I haven't seen anything in the regulation prohibiting it, I also haven't see anything authorizing it. This question should be addressed through the chain of command to be on the safe side.

CAPR 60-1 (3-May-14):
"2-3. Passenger Requirements. Authorized passengers are current CAP members whose category of membership allows them to ride in corporate aircraft as specified in CAPR 39-2

f. Only pilots that are qualified as CAP instructors, cadet and ROTC/JROTC orientation
pilots, SAR/DR or transport mission pilots (during supervised missions) may carry CAP cadets
as passengers or crew members.

g. Aircraft will not carry CAP or ROTC/JROTC cadets on board during the first 10
tachometer hours following an engine change, major overhaul, or replacement of cylinders or
magnetos.

CAPR 52-10 (1-Oct-14):

"d. Two-Deep Leadership. CAP's general policy is that every cadet activity must be supervised by at least two adult leaders who are in "Approved" status in eServices (see CAPR 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership). "

Therefore, it is acceptable because:

1) CAP Cadets are authorized passengers in CAP aircraft
2) The pilot asking the question is a qualified orientation flight pilot
3) The aircraft in question (I assume) has not had recent maintenance preventing a cadet from being on board
4) The flight is supervised by two adult leaders who are in approved status in eServices

Note that cadets can be mission scanners and observers also... How else would they earn those ratings if not for proficiency / training flying? Since cadets are not allowed to fly other cadets, SMs are required to fly cadets outside the O-Flight curriculum for this to happen. It's up to the pilot to adhere to CPP rules, but it can be done.

Cadets must be at least 18 years old to train as CAP aircrew members. Cadets under 18 years old must have authorization from the wing commander to do flight training.

A cadet over 18 is still a cadet - mission training is a great way to allow cadets who can't fly orientation flights into the air, but they're still cadets. They are still protected by CPP, and thus would require the other SM to be part of the crew. Flight training is not the subject of the original poster's question.

I'm very familiar with CAP passenger requirements in CAPR 60-1, Para. 2-3. What that paragraph doesn't specifically address is cadet passengers on self-funded proficiency flights. While a more liberal interpretation of that paragraph would say it's allowed, I would go with the most conservative response and seek clarification through the chain of command. It would just take a quick e-mail and the question would be settled.

[Spaceman3750]

We've literally addressed every one of those points, several times.

Being "legal" doesn't make it a "good idea".  The CPT is clear about that.

This has nothing to do with mission training, this started as a member asking if he could bring cadets along on self-funded flying.

The answer is "yes", at your own risk, and you're not allowed to do it by yourself, since while you can fly the sortie 1-1, you can't meet them, arrange the flight,
or otherwise be in contact with them 1-1, that is not negotiable, nor unclear.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® will not change the fact that it's not a best practice.

"But wait...!...rare exception, 1% case...this one time...you can't make me..."^® is a registered trademark of eClipseco Mining and Heavy Machinery Consortium.  All Rights Reserved.  Let eClipseco service all of your edge-case and skirting the regulations needs!

I am interested in your message and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Just don't buy their stock, mining and heavy machining isn't a great place to be right now .