Color guard practice- Outside of CAP

[kwe1009]

.... if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

You answered your own question. Regular Basis is different than a one time "spur of the moment" event that wasn't planned.

I didn't have a question. In my AOR, the answer is simple: don't do it. If you want to practice Color Guard, drill, whatever, with other cadets outside the squadron, make sure it's been approved by the commander and there's proper two-deep leadership supervision. Period.

What is the CAP regulation that your stance is based on?  If a couple of cadets own their own equipment, how can you justify not allowing them to use it without commander approval and two-deep leadership?  We can't, nor should we regulate initiative. 

If Cadet Snuffy announces a practice at a squadron meeting then that should be considered a CAP activity and all CPP rules should apply.  If Cadet Snuffy and a few of his friends are playing video games and then decide to go outside to help him get better at drill then that is their prerogative.  If they happen to own rifles (like all cadets that have gone through an Honor Guard Academy), you can't say they aren't allowed to practice or even teach a friend how to handle it.  If the cadets are not using CAP-owned equipment, there is no legal basis for CAP to regulate their activities.

Official practices or even unoffical using CAP equipment - must be properly supervised
Informal get-together - out of the span of CAP control, can't be regulated

[Майор Хаткевич]

After going to Honor Guard Academy, my friend (who recruited me) and I would constantly be playing around outside, and occasionally break out our practice wood dummy rifles to have some practice. Not a CAP event. Just two friends who liked twirling rifles.

[Storm Chaser]

.... if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

You answered your own question. Regular Basis is different than a one time "spur of the moment" event that wasn't planned.

I didn't have a question. In my AOR, the answer is simple: don't do it. If you want to practice Color Guard, drill, whatever, with other cadets outside the squadron, make sure it's been approved by the commander and there's proper two-deep leadership supervision. Period.

What is the CAP regulation that your stance is based on?

CAPR 20-1, Para. 15a.
CAPR 52-10, Para. 2-3a.

If a couple of cadets own their own equipment, how can you justify not allowing them to use it without commander approval and two-deep leadership?  We can't, nor should we regulate initiative. 

If Cadet Snuffy announces a practice at a squadron meeting then that should be considered a CAP activity and all CPP rules should apply.  If Cadet Snuffy and a few of his friends are playing video games and then decide to go outside to help him get better at drill then that is their prerogative.  If they happen to own rifles (like all cadets that have gone through an Honor Guard Academy), you can't say they aren't allowed to practice or even teach a friend how to handle it.  If the cadets are not using CAP-owned equipment, there is no legal basis for CAP to regulate their activities.

Official practices or even unoffical using CAP equipment - must be properly supervised
Informal get-together - out of the span of CAP control, can't be regulated

I actually can say (and have said) that no activity conducted by CAP members for CAP members with an official or unofficial CAP purpose can be conducted outside the boundaries of CAP regulations with the excuse that it is not a CAP activity. That does not apply to chance encounters, friends getting together to hang out, or other casual meetings between friends. In those cases, the parents, not CAP, are responsible for those cadets.

[etodd]

.... if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

You answered your own question. Regular Basis is different than a one time "spur of the moment" event that wasn't planned.

I didn't have a question. In my AOR, the answer is simple: don't do it. If you want to practice Color Guard, drill, whatever, with other cadets outside the squadron, make sure it's been approved by the commander and there's proper two-deep leadership supervision. Period.

Got it. So if two kids who happen to be CAP Cadets are sitting in the school cafeteria having lunch one weekday, and the new one to CAP asks the more experienced one a question about an upcoming CAP online test he is about to take later that week .... the older Cadet should say ... "STOP! We cannot practice your test answers without two Senior Members present and approval from the Commander!"     

[Storm Chaser]

.... if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

You answered your own question. Regular Basis is different than a one time "spur of the moment" event that wasn't planned.

I didn't have a question. In my AOR, the answer is simple: don't do it. If you want to practice Color Guard, drill, whatever, with other cadets outside the squadron, make sure it's been approved by the commander and there's proper two-deep leadership supervision. Period.

Got it. So if two kids who happen to be CAP Cadets are sitting in the school cafeteria having lunch one weekday, and the new one to CAP asks the more experienced one a question about an upcoming CAP online test he is about to take later that week .... the older Cadet should say ... "STOP! We cannot practice your test answers without two Senior Members present and approval from the Commander!"     

Not what I said. See my previous post above.

[kwe1009]

.... if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

You answered your own question. Regular Basis is different than a one time "spur of the moment" event that wasn't planned.

I didn't have a question. In my AOR, the answer is simple: don't do it. If you want to practice Color Guard, drill, whatever, with other cadets outside the squadron, make sure it's been approved by the commander and there's proper two-deep leadership supervision. Period.

What is the CAP regulation that your stance is based on?

CAPR 20-1, Para. 15a.
CAPR 52-10, Para. 2-3a.

If a couple of cadets own their own equipment, how can you justify not allowing them to use it without commander approval and two-deep leadership?  We can't, nor should we regulate initiative. 

If Cadet Snuffy announces a practice at a squadron meeting then that should be considered a CAP activity and all CPP rules should apply.  If Cadet Snuffy and a few of his friends are playing video games and then decide to go outside to help him get better at drill then that is their prerogative.  If they happen to own rifles (like all cadets that have gone through an Honor Guard Academy), you can't say they aren't allowed to practice or even teach a friend how to handle it.  If the cadets are not using CAP-owned equipment, there is no legal basis for CAP to regulate their activities.

Official practices or even unoffical using CAP equipment - must be properly supervised
Informal get-together - out of the span of CAP control, can't be regulated

I actually can say (and have said) that no activity conducted by CAP members for CAP members with an official or unofficial CAP purpose can be conducted outside the boundaries of CAP regulations with the excuse that it is not a CAP activity. That does not apply to chance encounters, friends getting together to hang out, or other casual meetings between friends. In those cases, the parents, not CAP, are responsible for those cadets.

The regulations you quoted do not justify your stance.  They talk about authority concerning CAP activities.  Marching, rifle drill, color guard are not exclusive CAP activities.  CAP commanders have zero authority outside of CAP.  Unless CAP owned assets are being used, it is advertised as a flight/squadron/etc activity, or it is taking place on CAP property, CAP commanders can't dictate what members of their squadrons can do outside of CAP.   

If a few cadets decide to get together and march, that is their business.  If they decide to get together and go hiking and practice compass and map reading skills (GTM qualifications), that is their business as well.  If they say "Bravo flight is having drill practice tomorrow" then I would say that is now a CAP activity because they have identified it as part of their squadron.  If they say. "let's get together tomorrow and practice drill" then they aren't identifying with any organization so CAP, JROTC, or anyone else has no authority in that. 

How would you handle my Honor Guard example?  You have 2 or more cadets who own rifles and want to practice with them outside of meetings.  Do you tell them they can't unless they have 2 Senior Members present?  They are not at a CAP location, it is not an official activity, it is just a few friends wanting to sharpen their skills.

Telling your cadets they are not allowed to get together and do things that are not exclusive to CAP is overstepping authority in my opinion. 

[lordmonar]

Kwe1009,

The answer is situational.
And the answer is a chain of command issue.

It does not matter what you thing is okay or not.  It does not matter what the cadets think or not.   It matters what the commander, and his commander and the IG think.

The regs are clear.   All cadet activities will have two deep leadership.  Sure.....cadets gather for the fun of it.....at some point it may be considered a CAP activity.

"let's meet tomorrow" is too nebulous a term to make a decision.   It lacks context.  And it is all about context.

The color guard commander tells the color guard cadets at the CAP meeting "We are meeting at my house Saturday at 9 a.m."  That's a CAP activity.  Because that is what Cadet CG member is going to tell his parents.  "I got a color guard training on Saturday at 9 a.m." which they think means it is a proper sanctioned and supervised activity.

And that's the key here.  That is the point of the whole regulation.  It is not to stop cadets from hanging out.  It is to protect our cadets, our organization and our reputation.

And it is not over stepping authority to make sure that you know what your cadets may be doing in CAP's name.  It is one of our jobs.

[Spam]

Tailing on (and I'm in agreement with Eclipse and Lordmonar), the positively phrased approach is to not let the "troops" invent activities in a vacuum, but rather to proactively get out in front as a Squadron Commander, as a CDC, and as a C/CC to come up with a training plan, then a schedule, and then to document it in a Form 32 permission slip and to post it on the unit online calendar for parental visibility.

Example:  my squadrons cadets have won the Georgia Wing Cadet Comp (Color Guard Division) four out of the last five times its been held (they took the fifth year off), and did so largely by putting effort into practicing via a regular, disciplined schedule.  We had a set Monday night 3 hour practice (no uniforms) with 2 escorts, a separate drill (uniforms) on our normal WED meeting nights, and then a six hour or so drill for them every Saturday in the 3 months leading up to the Wing and SER competition. That plan was documented and posted, so parents knew without any wiggle room what was authorized, via whom as supervision, and where their minor cadets would be.  In the "off" months, no special extra training was authorized, but every 4th week (on Blues UOD nights) our plan was to have all advanced flight cadets break out the practice rifles and colors to build a pool of trained assets from whom a competition cadre could be down selected for NCC. Document, regularize, publish that CAPF 32 per the regs...

... and then you'll have little time for idle hands to get into trouble.

Gotta have a plan. That's one of the great benefits of Cadet Comp/Color Guard/Honor Guard: learning the discipline to work well as a team (win or lose) and the importance of attention to detail and planning! Absent having a plan, the natural desire of cadets to DO STUFF will naturally lead them to act, sometimes with poor choices. Years ago, I had cadets in a couple of other units who told their folks they were meeting pals for CAP stuff, and then they went elsewhere and got in trouble. For such, I busted them back in grades for dishonesty, and I kicked one out of CAP.  I also learned to specifically discourage that sort of ad hoc pickup game sort of thing, but to also ENCOURAGE the initiative to propose off-meeting training with a reviewed and approved plan (after all, we're trying to encourage planning and both management and leadership in the program, not a spasmodic ad hoc manner of training).


V/R
Spam

[Storm Chaser]

.... if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

You answered your own question. Regular Basis is different than a one time "spur of the moment" event that wasn't planned.

I didn't have a question. In my AOR, the answer is simple: don't do it. If you want to practice Color Guard, drill, whatever, with other cadets outside the squadron, make sure it's been approved by the commander and there's proper two-deep leadership supervision. Period.

What is the CAP regulation that your stance is based on?

CAPR 20-1, Para. 15a.
CAPR 52-10, Para. 2-3a.

If a couple of cadets own their own equipment, how can you justify not allowing them to use it without commander approval and two-deep leadership?  We can't, nor should we regulate initiative. 

If Cadet Snuffy announces a practice at a squadron meeting then that should be considered a CAP activity and all CPP rules should apply.  If Cadet Snuffy and a few of his friends are playing video games and then decide to go outside to help him get better at drill then that is their prerogative.  If they happen to own rifles (like all cadets that have gone through an Honor Guard Academy), you can't say they aren't allowed to practice or even teach a friend how to handle it.  If the cadets are not using CAP-owned equipment, there is no legal basis for CAP to regulate their activities.

Official practices or even unoffical using CAP equipment - must be properly supervised
Informal get-together - out of the span of CAP control, can't be regulated

I actually can say (and have said) that no activity conducted by CAP members for CAP members with an official or unofficial CAP purpose can be conducted outside the boundaries of CAP regulations with the excuse that it is not a CAP activity. That does not apply to chance encounters, friends getting together to hang out, or other casual meetings between friends. In those cases, the parents, not CAP, are responsible for those cadets.

The regulations you quoted do not justify your stance.  They talk about authority concerning CAP activities.  Marching, rifle drill, color guard are not exclusive CAP activities.  CAP commanders have zero authority outside of CAP.  Unless CAP owned assets are being used, it is advertised as a flight/squadron/etc activity, or it is taking place on CAP property, CAP commanders can't dictate what members of their squadrons can do outside of CAP.   

If a few cadets decide to get together and march, that is their business.  If they decide to get together and go hiking and practice compass and map reading skills (GTM qualifications), that is their business as well.  If they say "Bravo flight is having drill practice tomorrow" then I would say that is now a CAP activity because they have identified it as part of their squadron.  If they say. "let's get together tomorrow and practice drill" then they aren't identifying with any organization so CAP, JROTC, or anyone else has no authority in that. 

How would you handle my Honor Guard example?  You have 2 or more cadets who own rifles and want to practice with them outside of meetings.  Do you tell them they can't unless they have 2 Senior Members present?  They are not at a CAP location, it is not an official activity, it is just a few friends wanting to sharpen their skills.

Telling your cadets they are not allowed to get together and do things that are not exclusive to CAP is overstepping authority in my opinion.

Please read my entire post before you comment on it. Thank you.

[Storm Chaser]

Kwe1009,

The answer is situational.
And the answer is a chain of command issue.

It does not matter what you thing is okay or not.  It does not matter what the cadets think or not.   It matters what the commander, and his commander and the IG think.

The regs are clear.   All cadet activities will have two deep leadership.  Sure.....cadets gather for the fun of it.....at some point it may be considered a CAP activity.

"let's meet tomorrow" is too nebulous a term to make a decision.   It lacks context.  And it is all about context.

The color guard commander tells the color guard cadets at the CAP meeting "We are meeting at my house Saturday at 9 a.m."  That's a CAP activity.  Because that is what Cadet CG member is going to tell his parents.  "I got a color guard training on Saturday at 9 a.m." which they think means it is a proper sanctioned and supervised activity.

And that's the key here.  That is the point of the whole regulation.  It is not to stop cadets from hanging out.  It is to protect our cadets, our organization and our reputation.

And it is not over stepping authority to make sure that you know what your cadets may be doing in CAP's name.  It is one of our jobs.

That was exactly my point. It only takes one cadet or parent to think it's a sanctioned CAP meeting because of the perceived or actual authority of who's calling or suggesting the meeting. That can lead to potential problems and commanders must do what they can to prevent that from happening.

[Tim Day]

CAP commanders have zero authority outside of CAP.   

Keep in mind that CAP commanders' authority extends to CAP members even when they are not at official CAP activities. Check your membership agreement. There is no "when attending official CAP activities" clause. It's a volunteer organization, but we volunteered (and agreed to certain conditions when we did so). That means even outside CAP we comply with things like cadet protection, and if we don't, our commanders have authority to impose discipline up to terminating our membership.

[PHall]

.... if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

You answered your own question. Regular Basis is different than a one time "spur of the moment" event that wasn't planned.

I didn't have a question. In my AOR, the answer is simple: don't do it. If you want to practice Color Guard, drill, whatever, with other cadets outside the squadron, make sure it's been approved by the commander and there's proper two-deep leadership supervision. Period.

Got it. So if two kids who happen to be CAP Cadets are sitting in the school cafeteria having lunch one weekday, and the new one to CAP asks the more experienced one a question about an upcoming CAP online test he is about to take later that week .... the older Cadet should say ... "STOP! We cannot practice your test answers without two Senior Members present and approval from the Commander!"     

Actually, you can not practice test answers at all!
If you wanna be a real pain about it. The older cadet who has taken the test before would be compromising the test material by "giving" answers to someone who has not taken that test yet.
If you wanna be a real pain about it...
But it would probably be a pretty good "teachable moment" about ethics though.

[kwe1009]

CAP commanders have zero authority outside of CAP.   

Keep in mind that CAP commanders' authority extends to CAP members even when they are not at official CAP activities. Check your membership agreement. There is no "when attending official CAP activities" clause. It's a volunteer organization, but we volunteered (and agreed to certain conditions when we did so). That means even outside CAP we comply with things like cadet protection, and if we don't, our commanders have authority to impose discipline up to terminating our membership.

While I agree that we must be in compliance with CAP regulations at all times, I still see it as an over reach of commander's authority to not allow cadets to march or practice rifle drill on their own or even with a few friends as long as no CAP property is used and it is not advertised as an official event.  What CAP regulation states that cadets can't informally get together and march, practice using a compass, etc?  I have 4 cadets from one family in my squadron and I know that they get together with a few other friends in their neighborhood and march plus practice using a map and compass.  I can't see how this is a violation of any CAP regulation. 

If CAP can dictate what a cadet can do outside of meeting and official activities then what if these same friends want to go play paintball, can a CAP commander deny them or punish them?

When my color guard has a practice, it is properly supervised.  When one of my flights has an official practice, it is properly supervised.  When a few friends who also happen to be in CAP get together, I have zero authority.  We have a squadron calendar and everyone is told that official events are posted on the squadron calendar.  If it isn't on the calendar then it is not an official event.

Kwe1009,

The answer is situational.
And the answer is a chain of command issue.

It does not matter what you thing is okay or not.  It does not matter what the cadets think or not.   It matters what the commander, and his commander and the IG think.

The regs are clear.   All cadet activities will have two deep leadership.  Sure.....cadets gather for the fun of it.....at some point it may be considered a CAP activity.

"let's meet tomorrow" is too nebulous a term to make a decision.   It lacks context.  And it is all about context.

The color guard commander tells the color guard cadets at the CAP meeting "We are meeting at my house Saturday at 9 a.m."  That's a CAP activity.  Because that is what Cadet CG member is going to tell his parents.  "I got a color guard training on Saturday at 9 a.m." which they think means it is a proper sanctioned and supervised activity.

And that's the key here.  That is the point of the whole regulation.  It is not to stop cadets from hanging out.  It is to protect our cadets, our organization and our reputation.

And it is not over stepping authority to make sure that you know what your cadets may be doing in CAP's name.  It is one of our jobs.

I completely agree with your statement.  As for your last line, my comments are about doing things NOT in CAP's name.  Marching, rifle drill, using a map/compass work, etc are not exclusively CAP activities and if any number of friends want to get together and participate in them I still don't see where CAP has the authority to dictate if they can do it or not.

--------------------------------------------------------

I would really like to hear the point of view of a CAP legal officer on this.

[Tim Day]

While I agree that we must be in compliance with CAP regulations at all times, I still see it as an over reach of commander's authority to not allow cadets to march or practice rifle drill on their own or even with a few friends as long as no CAP property is used and it is not advertised as an official event. 

I agree with you. I don't actually see anyone on this thread who is asserting otherwise. But if a Flight Sergeant tells flight members there is a drill practice at his house on Saturday, the practice becomes a CAP activity whether on the schedule or not.

If CAP can dictate what a cadet can do outside of meeting and official activities then what if these same friends want to go play paintball, can a CAP commander deny them or punish them?

Yes, because those cadets and their parents acknowledged a membership agreement that provides this authority to commanders. You seem focused on the nature of the activity meaning anything (at least that's what it seems like to me). The meaningful factor is whether or not there is a CAP influence on whether the activity takes place, for example, if in the case of the Flight Sergeant above it's paintball instead of drill practice it's the same thing.

When my color guard has a practice, it is properly supervised.  When one of my flights has an official practice, it is properly supervised.  When a few friends who also happen to be in CAP get together, I have zero authority.  We have a squadron calendar and everyone is told that official events are posted on the squadron calendar.  If it isn't on the calendar then it is not an official event.

You do not have zero authority, in fact your responsibility continues to exist. If one cadet hazes or otherwise violates cadet protection rules and you find out about it you still have an obligation to report the incident to your Wing Commander. If a CAP senior member shows up it's still potentially a boundary concern that you have to track, depending on prior relationships and the other exceptions.

Presence on a calendar doesn't mean anything.

[Storm Chaser]

CAP commanders have zero authority outside of CAP.   

Keep in mind that CAP commanders' authority extends to CAP members even when they are not at official CAP activities. Check your membership agreement. There is no "when attending official CAP activities" clause. It's a volunteer organization, but we volunteered (and agreed to certain conditions when we did so). That means even outside CAP we comply with things like cadet protection, and if we don't, our commanders have authority to impose discipline up to terminating our membership.

While I agree that we must be in compliance with CAP regulations at all times, I still see it as an over reach of commander's authority to not allow cadets to march or practice rifle drill on their own or even with a few friends as long as no CAP property is used and it is not advertised as an official event.  What CAP regulation states that cadets can't informally get together and march, practice using a compass, etc?  I have 4 cadets from one family in my squadron and I know that they get together with a few other friends in their neighborhood and march plus practice using a map and compass.  I can't see how this is a violation of any CAP regulation. 

If CAP can dictate what a cadet can do outside of meeting and official activities then what if these same friends want to go play paintball, can a CAP commander deny them or punish them?

When my color guard has a practice, it is properly supervised.  When one of my flights has an official practice, it is properly supervised.  When a few friends who also happen to be in CAP get together, I have zero authority.  We have a squadron calendar and everyone is told that official events are posted on the squadron calendar.  If it isn't on the calendar then it is not an official event.

Kwe1009,

The answer is situational.
And the answer is a chain of command issue.

It does not matter what you thing is okay or not.  It does not matter what the cadets think or not.   It matters what the commander, and his commander and the IG think.

The regs are clear.   All cadet activities will have two deep leadership.  Sure.....cadets gather for the fun of it.....at some point it may be considered a CAP activity.

"let's meet tomorrow" is too nebulous a term to make a decision.   It lacks context.  And it is all about context.

The color guard commander tells the color guard cadets at the CAP meeting "We are meeting at my house Saturday at 9 a.m."  That's a CAP activity.  Because that is what Cadet CG member is going to tell his parents.  "I got a color guard training on Saturday at 9 a.m." which they think means it is a proper sanctioned and supervised activity.

And that's the key here.  That is the point of the whole regulation.  It is not to stop cadets from hanging out.  It is to protect our cadets, our organization and our reputation.

And it is not over stepping authority to make sure that you know what your cadets may be doing in CAP's name.  It is one of our jobs.

I completely agree with your statement.  As for your last line, my comments are about doing things NOT in CAP's name.  Marching, rifle drill, using a map/compass work, etc are not exclusively CAP activities and if any number of friends want to get together and participate in them I still don't see where CAP has the authority to dictate if they can do it or not.

--------------------------------------------------------

I would really like to hear the point of view of a CAP legal officer on this.

The problem with your post is that you are making the assumption that someone (me?) is trying to exercise authority over what CAP members do outside of CAP beyond what's permitted by regulation. If you carefully read everyone of my posts regarding this subject (not just a few selected sentences), you'll see that's not the case. Again, don't comment over single sentences out of context, but read the entire conversation first. Everyone else commenting on this thread has done just that.