Color guard practice- Outside of CAP

[Hummingbird]

During our 2 hour meetings in the Vanguard squadron, we never have enough time to practice for color guard, only regular drill. Our commander says that it needs to be outside of CAP, and no uniforms can be worn for it. Meanwhile I've heard from the sergeant commanding the color guard that he'd heard (I believe this is correct) from the previous squadron commander that even without uniforms, we cannot practice it outside of CAP because it is an organized activity pertaining to CAP and they could be held responsible for any injuries/damages. Any ideas?

[arajca]

If you're practicing for a CAP Color Guard, it is a CAP activity and all the rules must be followed, including senior supervision. This is true regardless of whether you're wearing uniforms or not.

[Storm Chaser]

This is something that needs to be discussed with your squadron commander and deputy commander for cadets. I can understand the need for practice outside the standard weekly meeting because there's normally not enough time then for adequate Color Guard practice. That said, any activity done for CAP by CAP members, even if outside the standard weekly meeting, IS a CAP activity and MUST have adequate senior member supervision. There is no such thing as meeting for CAP outside of CAP, so we're not CAP even though we really are. It doesn't work that way.

[etodd]

... we never have enough time to practice for color guard, only regular drill.

So you are saying that the color guard squad isn't a priority and is related to the bottom of the heap? The person in charge of scheduling regular drill doesn't want to let the color guard members take any of his/her time?

Our color guard practices during regular meeting times while the other cadets are doing other things. Scheduling.

What am I missing?

[Angus]

Unless it's a NYWG thing, yes you can have regular practice for your Color Guard outside of your regularly scheduled meeting.  As has been stated you need to have proper senior member presence.  As far as not wearing uniforms, that's up to either the Color Guard Commander or the Senior involved.

[Eclipse]

Color Guard, like ES, is not a core component of the CP, so it's understandable you don't have time during the all too-few, all-too short regular meetings.

Units are supposed to be scheduling activities outside regular meetings, best-practice is once a month, this sounds like an excellent
use of a couple hours on a Saturday or Sunday morning.

As mentioned, it needs to be chaperoned by two senior members. Wearing or not wearing uniforms, per se, doesn't make it "not" a CAP
activity, nor does it relieve the CC of the supervision requirements.   Most coffee-house lawyers would agree that by his very suggesting
you meet "outside CAP for a CAP thing", he's turned it into a CAP activity.  YMMV.

[Garibaldi]

Color Guard, like ES, is not a core component of the CP, so it's understandable you don't have time during the all too-few, all-too short regular meetings.

Units are supposed to be scheduling activities outside regular meetings, best-practice is once a month, this sounds like an excellent
use of a couple hours on a Saturday or Sunday morning.

As mentioned, it needs to be chaperoned by two senior members. Wearing or not wearing uniforms, per se, doesn't make it "not" a CAP
activity, nor does it relieve the CC of the supervision requirements.   Most coffee-house lawyers would agree that by his very suggesting
you meet "outside CAP for a CAP thing", he's turned it into a CAP activity.  YMMV.

That logic has gotten people in trouble before. A bunch of teens in the same school who happen to be in the same CAP unit go paint-balling, and suddenly it's a non-CAP CAP activity, because they're all CAP cadets. Yet, they're not. We used to go to movies, run around the city, do our own thing outside CAP in the 80's without all this concern, but in these days where kids are being coddled to death....never mind. Getting sick to my stomach thinking about the permutations. Can't stop people from getting together off CAP time, right? Guess that's wrong.

[Angus]

Color Guard, like ES, is not a core component of the CP, so it's understandable you don't have time during the all too-few, all-too short regular meetings.

Units are supposed to be scheduling activities outside regular meetings, best-practice is once a month, this sounds like an excellent
use of a couple hours on a Saturday or Sunday morning.

As mentioned, it needs to be chaperoned by two senior members. Wearing or not wearing uniforms, per se, doesn't make it "not" a CAP
activity, nor does it relieve the CC of the supervision requirements.   Most coffee-house lawyers would agree that by his very suggesting
you meet "outside CAP for a CAP thing", he's turned it into a CAP activity.  YMMV.

That logic has gotten people in trouble before. A bunch of teens in the same school who happen to be in the same CAP unit go paint-balling, and suddenly it's a non-CAP CAP activity, because they're all CAP cadets. Yet, they're not. We used to go to movies, run around the city, do our own thing outside CAP in the 80's without all this concern, but in these days where kids are being coddled to death....never mind. Getting sick to my stomach thinking about the permutations. Can't stop people from getting together off CAP time, right? Guess that's wrong.

At that point I don't see how any sort of coddling would consider such activities in anyway close to being a "non-CAP CAP activity" that just being friends.  It like with any group you spend enough time together you become friends and hang out and do stuff.   Now if it's being organized during a Squadron Meeting during for lack of better term the "business portion" of the meeting and not while on break I can see it getting gray. 

[Eclipse]

That logic has gotten people in trouble before.

A conservative stance towards CAP regs and policies rarely gets anyone in trouble.

A bunch of teens in the same school who happen to be in the same CAP unit go paint-balling, and suddenly it's a non-CAP CAP activity, because they're all CAP cadets. Yet, they're not. We used to go to movies, run around the city, do our own thing outside CAP in the 80's without all this concern, but in these days where kids are being coddled to death....never mind. Getting sick to my stomach thinking about the permutations. Can't stop people from getting together off CAP time, right? Guess that's wrong.

Your example isn't really the same thing.  In the case of paintball, which for years was 100% verboten, the example most often cited was a CC passing around a sign up
sheet for a prohibited activity and then pretending it had no connection to CAP.

We can, in fact, stop people from getting together off CAP time, to the limit of their appreciation of their ID card.

Were I a Group CC who got wind that one of my CCs was encouraging cadets to meet for a legit CAP function outside
the superision of CAP seniors, there would be a conversation at a minimum.

[Hummingbird]

Thank you everyone who has replied so far, I'm honestly amazed how many came out of the woodworks so fast. I will be monitoring this thread and it is likely that the color guard commander(Also unhappy with out current state, including things other than color guard) will also be reading these posts.

[Tim Day]

C/Hummingbird,

CAP Activities outside of normal meetings are allowed and uniforms may be worn. However, Cadet Protection rules have to be followed (CAPR 52-10 lists these) most importantly, you'd need two senior members to be present (two-deep leadership).

Frequently squadron commanders would love to allow more activities but are restricted by the number of senior members in the squadron who would be available to supervise. Your squadron commander can't authorize a CAP activity where he doesn't have the resources to assure compliance with regulations.

CAP does not prohibit cadets who become friends to hang out with each other outside of CAP. In fact if your friend's parent is a CAP member CAPR 52-10 states interacting with them outside of CAP is not improper (you could go to your friend's house even if their CAP senior member parent was present). However, when you start practicing color guard movements your hanging out becomes much closer to a CAP activity and probably crosses that line.

It sounds to me like both your squadron commander and your sergeant are correct, but not necessarily for the reasons it might seem like to you at the time. If a couple of parents could join as cadet sponsor members, they could take turns serving as a second senior member along with whatever senior member in your squadron is willing to hold color guard practice. This activity would have to follow all the normal rules for a cadet activity. Alternately, perhaps your cadet advisory council representative could forward up a recommendation to hold activities at a level higher than your squadron where color guards from different squadrons could get together and practice.   

At your stage in the cadet program, I recommend you respectfully discuss the issue with your chain of command but really focus on your advancement. Once you get the basics completed and become a cadet NCO you'll be in a better position to help your squadron commander accomplish his or her goals (which may include having a color guard).

I hope this helps!

[Hummingbird]

Thank you for your input, I have already spoken to the sergeant in charge of the color guard. He's brought up the issue, and hopefully it will be resolved soon.

[kwe1009]

CAP does not prohibit cadets who become friends to hang out with each other outside of CAP. In fact if your friend's parent is a CAP member CAPR 52-10 states interacting with them outside of CAP is not improper (you could go to your friend's house even if their CAP senior member parent was present). However, when you start practicing color guard movements your hanging out becomes much closer to a CAP activity and probably crosses that line.

So what you are saying is if a couple of friends are just hanging out and decide to start practicing drill or some other some other CAP related activity, they should stop and find a Senior Member?  This sort of thing happens all of the time when cadets get together outside of meetings.  We can't prohibit cadets from marching outside of CAP activities.  My squadron has 2 brothers that practice marching with some of their friends down the street all of the time but don't wear CAP uniforms.  Is this wrong too?  What regulation prohibits this?

I do agree if the squadron's color guard is going to have an official practice that a Senior Member must be present but we can't dictate how they spend their free time.  We can't threaten to 2B them either as someone else suggested for getting together and marching.  This is one way to definitely get parents and their children angry at CAP.

[arajca]

Casual activities are different from planned activities. Hanging out and killing time by practicing drill is an example of a casual activity. You didn't plan to get together to drill, it just happened. Planning to get together for color guard practice is a planned activity, hence all the rules regarding CAP activities come into play. This distinction is necessary because some cadets had a tendency to plan 'cadet only' activities and would tell their parents it was a CAP activity. When the some parents called the commander, the commander had not heard of the activity nor had approved it. Now, imagine if someone got hurt at one of these unofficial CAP activities...

[Storm Chaser]

Casual activities are different from planned activities. Hanging out and killing time by practicing drill is an example of a casual activity. You didn't plan to get together to drill, it just happened.

That's a fine line. If parents and cadets know they're not participating in any type of CAP meeting or function, then I can see that. But it has to be clear to everyone. More often than not, members use the excuse that it's not a CAP activity to circumvent regulations or requirements. I would argue that if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

[etodd]

.... if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

You answered your own question. Regular Basis is different than a one time "spur of the moment" event that wasn't planned.

[etodd]

.... if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

You answered your own question. Regular Basis is different than a one time "spur of the moment" event that wasn't planned.

[Tim Day]

So what you are saying is if a couple of friends are just hanging out and decide to start practicing drill or some other some other CAP related activity, they should stop and find a Senior Member? 

No, thanks for asking for clarification. I'm saying if the color guard decides to go get some extra practice in they should find a couple of senior members to provide two-deep leadership.

Am I going to threaten to 2B two cadets I find practicing facing movements at the mall? No. Would I think about filing a 2B against a member who encouraged the color guard to meet at his house for more practice? I might, if the behavior was repeated and other attempts to correct the behavior were ignored.

[Eclipse]

Maj Gen Vasquez just sent a memo discussing incorporating ORM into operations as more then a passing conversation.
This is one of the reasons why.

Consider the risk in this endeavor.

No proper adult supervision in a context that will have cadets directing other cadets - the risk for hazing here would be at least moderate.

Further, what if a cadet takes a spearpoint to the face or rifle to the eye? We've had to remove them from our flags for practice, because...you know...
the new guys don't know what they are doing.  And have you ever left a cadet alone for more then 3 minutes with a parade rifle that
doesn't get spun or bolt cycled 20 times the minute you leave the room?

Who's deep pockets do you think they are going to reach for first?
And before you type, defending yourself in a lawsuit, either personally or as an organization isn't "free" by even a little bit.

All for something unnecessary, because this is supposed to be incorporated in the unit's training and supervision plan.

[Storm Chaser]

.... if cadets meet outside of CAP on a regular basis and "just happen" to do Color Guard practice (informally, of course) for use in CAP functions later on, then they may be circumventing the process to make practicing easier.

You answered your own question. Regular Basis is different than a one time "spur of the moment" event that wasn't planned.

I didn't have a question. In my AOR, the answer is simple: don't do it. If you want to practice Color Guard, drill, whatever, with other cadets outside the squadron, make sure it's been approved by the commander and there's proper two-deep leadership supervision. Period.